You know nothing about Hinduism

[lucius]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I just thought I'd post a lovely e-mail I received this morning:



I just read the crap you have on Hinduism on your comparative religion site. I am a Hindu and your information is not only based on Judeo-Christian ignorance and religious bigotry you lot have been peddling for thousands of years but it astounds me that post modernity you are stuck in the same grove of bigotry.

Hindus did not get their religion from Persia - there is nothing in common between Hinduism and Zorastras teachings. Aryan theory is white crap designed to show that the world's oldest religion could not have come from a region they had to destroy and colonise! That you hold on to such crap is indicative of your Christian ignorance and the master race's continued intention to turn everyone into one of them. It is best your kind remain as you are - wisdom is something beyond your kind.

Your attempt at dissemination of information on comparative religions is nothing short of religious provincialism and intellectual flatulence. Leave Hinduism alone - you know nothing about it!!!!

Gian



I know it's something you shouldn't reply to, but I did:

"If you're Hindu I'm Shvia. Read some history. You obviously know nothing about Hinduism. Fin."

It's a shame but many Indian people have similar attitudes - although not all.
There is a kind of traditionalist, backward-looking trend in hinduism as in most religions - and a kind of fundamentalist attitude that grips some.
But I have also met Indian people who are accepting of a wider viewpoint and are respectful of the views of others, even westerners like me about hinduism.

When he says 'hindus did not get their religion from Persia' he's probably half wrong half right. There is very probably a common anscestor of both hinduism and zoroastrianism, but hinduism developed as we know it in a uniquely Indian context.
See 'The Masters of Wisdom' by J.G.Bennet for an very interesting insight into these links.

[kiwimac]

It was never my intention to suggest that Hindus did get their religion from Persia but that rather they had a common ancestor.

Kiwimac

[Samuel Linton Boot]

The Aryan invasion theory is contrary to Hindu faith, for if one regards the Krishna and the Rama incarnations as historical events then one must regard Vedic civilisation, as being existant in India for many tens of thousands of years.
I for one take the view that a peoples documents and folk stories are the best source of evidence as regards their history.
As has already been pointed out the use of the word Aryan to denote a race is incorrect. The Aryan invasion theory is based on assumption and has been adequately discredited, although unbelievably it still gets taught (scholars do hate to admit their wrong).
Undoubtedly Zoaroastrianism is connected to Hinduism because like all religions it has its roots in the Santana Dharma. Just as all languages have their roots in Sanskrit, the language of Hindu scripture.
As regards a date for the composition of the Vedas (or even the Puranas) it may be possible to calculate a date as to when they were written down but as they were and still are an oral tradition passed on form Guru to disciple this does not help as to pinpointing their origin.
There is a remarkable lack of understanding and respect prevalent in the West as regards Hinduism considering it is undeniably the worlds oldest living religion and has the vastest collection of scriptures and practises, covering all fields of knowledge and philosophy. The very fact that the Abrahamic religions are referred to as the worlds monotheistic religions is weird considering Sikhism and Hinduism are both also monotheistic.
In this context I quote from a discussion about teaching religious studies in recent times by a Leeds University Theology lecturer William S Campbell :
"At the beginning of the twentieth century, it was generally believed that Christianity was the fulfilment of Judaism, and therefore a superior religion, where grace and truth were assumed to be obviously superior to the legalism believed to be endemic in Judaism. This assumption of superiority over one world religion was easily transferable to other world faiths, especially those that seemed most unrelated to the Christian pattern. A religious imperialism tended to place Christianity at the apex of religious development, as the crown of all religion."

[Agnideva]

Namaste Samuel,

Thanks for the interesting post.

Originally Posted by Samuel Linton Boot

The Aryan invasion theory is contrary to Hindu faith, for if one regards the Krishna and the Rama incarnations as historical events then one must regard Vedic civilisation, as being existant in India for many tens of thousands of years.

This is essentially what modern Hindus believe. There is no internal evidence to support any such invasion. However, textbooks continue to present the invasion theory as if has been validated. I personally see history just like I see science. In both fields, the picture becomes clearer with continuing research, and older versions of the "truth" have to be replaced. I, for one, am still waiting to see concrete evidence that such an invasion did occur.

I for one take the view that a peoples documents and folk stories are the best source of evidence as regards their history.

This is an interesting perspective as well. Despite the lack of evidence, some people have come to the "conclusion" from the Ramayana that Rama’s journey to Sri Lanka and the defeat of the King of Lanka represents
"aryanization" when clearly in the story itself, the intent was quite different.

As has already been pointed out the use of the word Aryan to denote a race is incorrect.

Yes. Arya means noble in the Vedas, and Hinduism in general. In Buddhism also, the term Arya means noble. For example, the four noble truths of Shakyamuni Buddha are called Arya Satya, and the noble eightfold path is called Arya Ashtangika Marga.

As regards a date for the composition of the Vedas (or even the Puranas) it may be possible to calculate a date as to when they were written down but as they were and still are an oral tradition passed on form Guru to disciple this does not help as to pinpointing their origin.

I am not even sure that the date of their first writing can be calculated. My understanding is that ancient Hindu texts were written on palm leaves, and then carefully copied by monks and priests when the older manuscripts began to fall apart. However, I’ve heard that Vedas contain a lot of astronomical references, which have been used to calculate a range of dates for their original composition, based on equinoctal precession.

The very fact that the Abrahamic religions are referred to as the worlds monotheistic religions is weird considering Sikhism and Hinduism are both also monotheistic.

I suppose it really depends on the definition of "monotheism" . If the definition is based on the first commandment, then Hinduism does not fit that mold.

OM Shanti,
Agnideva.

[pohaikawahine]

when I was younger I use to get really upset when I would read about the arrival of Captain Cook on the Hawaiian islands and that "the people thought he was a god" because he arrived at the time of the "makahiki" on a large ship with white sails .... during the makahiki, a time of peace, a staff with white tapa cloth is carried as part of the procession or walk up and then down the mountain .... then I read the Hopi prophecies that some interpret to mean "when the white brother arrives ...." certain things will happen ..... then I traveled to small islands in the South Pacific and painted on the old "god's houses" were always white faces ..... and then I read my first Churchward book on the land called Lemuria and he said that the pagans that lived on the islands carried these ancient symbols, but they didn't understand the meaning ..... constantly did I see what I perceived as white superiority that was used to subject others to a different world view .....and then one day in a flash of thought (you might even call it an very small revelation) came to me "we all got it wrong and it has nothing to do with the color white" .... all the ancient chants and legends and prophecies are telling us about "light" not "white" and when we draw it or try to visualize it, the only color we see is something close to "white", but it is "light" that will come and not a "white man" ....


so when Captain Cook arrived, and it was prophecized that the God Lono would return at this time (and the God Lono is symbolized in the thunder and lightening .... only symbols, but long forgotten) yes, we did get confused and thought the "god" had arrived because we associated this ancient knowledge with the color "white" instead of "light" .... we had gone into a deep sleep and forgot the meanings of the symbols ..... and everywhere I re-visited I found the same thing .... it is "light" that we seek or "God", the "Great Spirit", the "One" .... many names, all the same ....

I also found one day a small book "Ancient Mystical White Brotherhood" by Frater Acad (part of something called the Melchizedek Series) and he states "White" in the title of this book, Ancient Mystical White Brotherhood, refers only to one's souls's intent, or one's level of consciousness as the white light refers to the highest level of thinking. It has no connection to eithe the color of one's skin or race. Just as the prism breaks white light into all colors, so does the White Brotherhood embrace all colors of skin and races. The White Brotherhood is elsewhere referred to as the Golden Brotherhood or the Universal Brotherhood." I was happy to find this small book because it reinforced that "aha" that I had several years before and helped me to remove the anger that usually raised in me when ever I head the term "white brotherhood" .... so now I understand that the reference to the "lodge of the white brotherhood" is no different that the "cave of the white bear" is no different that the "location of the holy grail" is no different than the "holy of holies" .... they are all the same, references to a place of light and knowing ....

so did Aryans travel the world thinking they were "the chosen ones" because they also misinterepreted the ancient words .... have we all been in a deep sleep forgetting who we are .... many walls have been put in place because of the pain and hurt inflicted by those that also misunderstood .... but we also gave up our power to these outsiders because we had forgotten as well .... so many of us look outside of ourselves for the answers .... when our true sovereignty has always been right there inside .... so now I understand that when the Hopi say "when the white brother arrives we will take a different path" they only mean that when we walk the ancient path of knowledge (the inner path of the spiralling energy) we will arrive at that place of light and meet our "light" brother .... or better yet, "this is the time in which we will meet ourselves" .....

isn't there a saying "wake up and see the light" ..... once I learned to let the old anger go, I was able to find my way back to that ancient path and although I stumble often, I can clearly see the light at the end of the road these days and it is a source of comfort and warmth .... he hawai'i au, pohhaikawahine p.s. and I know nothing about Hinduism except that it is part of that ancient path

[wil]

Namaste pohaikawahine,

I was also aghast when I first read about the White Brotherhood...

But it is much the same as my understanding today of God, v. my sunday school view.

I find out more and more that I don't know anything. As what is taught to me in school gets pulled out from under me in the 'light' of current knowledge.

This applies to religious as well as historical and political thinking...as the victors write the books, we get a very revisionist view of the world. And unfortuneately mythology is powerful enough to remain through millenia of evidence.

Slightly off topic but on the subject of 'You know nothing about...' In school we were taught that George Washington lead a group of revolutionairies through the winter at Valley Forge that didn't have shoes or proper clothes, (we had drawings in our books of rags on their bloody feet walking in snow), that they were not well trained and darn near died of starvation. Truth (as we know it today) is that almost 15,000 men wintered there, none died of starvation or of the cold, none even got frostbite ( the medical records are very complete, influenza did sweep through and kill a number of them), and they practiced and drilled regularly, were well trained soldiers and all had clothes, shoes and uniforms adequate for the winter...as well as very well fed.

Unfortuneately there was a letter, and now a monument bearing the inscription that GW sent to his commander, 'the men are starving and naked.' These words, 'starving' and 'naked' were military terms. Your men are starving if you have enough food to feed most on full rations but 1/4 or more would be on 3/4 rations or less...you can call them 'starviing' they met that criteria. If less than 3/4 of your men have full uniforms, every buckle, every button, every sash 100% then you can call your men 'naked'. All men had shoes, pants, guns, shirts, coats and hats to meet their needs...they just couldn't outfit 100% of them in complete uniforms...down to the button.

We camped in tents (down to 14 degrees) with hundreds of scouts....During the orginal Valley Forge Encampment all of the thousands slept in cabins, with bunks and fireplaces and were fed by the camp staff. Our boyscouts that camped there were less fully uniformed, had similar fare to eat, but prepared it themselves, slept on the ground and had no shelter from the wind and cold but their tents at night....all so en'light'ening.

So I can see where it would be easy if in less than 250 years the terminology changed so dramatically, and in such a short time history was so *******ized to the masses....to create a completely false view of reality...that any religion whose words are thousands of years old....have matured differently in different minds and whose interpretations could easily been misconstrued.

[I am free]

I find the discovery that there was indeed a great Sarasvati river which dried up around 2000 BC very interesting. It does coincide with the fall of the "Indus civilization". Also it seems to show that the Rigveda & the Vedic civilization precedes or atleast coincides the Indus civilization.

When I was in school, we were taught "Aryan Invasion", the fall of dravidian civilization and also that Vedic civilization followed the Harappan one. I dont know if history books have been updated now.

The similarity between the parsi religion and Hinduism is curious though. It does seem that there was a migration, or maybe even a strong intermingling of people.

I do look forward to any further research on this subject. It would be fascinating to understand our history, heritage and culture better.

[Agnideva]

Namaste I am Free,

Nice to see you back .

Originally Posted by I am free

I find the discovery that there was indeed a great Sarasvati river which dried up around 2000 BC very interesting. It does coincide with the fall of the "Indus civilization". Also it seems to show that the Rigveda & the Vedic civilization precedes or atleast coincides the Indus civilization.

Goes to show that the Sarasvati of the Rigveda is real, and not fictional . I've often wondered why scholars limit discussion of Vedic civilization only to the Indus valley -- is there any reason why it couldn't have been present in other river valleys at the same time?

When I was in school, we were taught "Aryan Invasion", the fall of dravidian civilization and also that Vedic civilization followed the Harappan one. I dont know if history books have been updated now.

My understanding is that in most places they've not been updated. There are still some scholars who don't want to change their stance. I could be wrong here, as I don't know too much about this subject.

The similarity between the parsi religion and Hinduism is curious though. It does seem that there was a migration, or maybe even a strong intermingling of people.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were many migrations back and forth. The exchange of ideas is not a new thing to human society. If I remember right, there have been artifacts found in the Indus valley suggesting that they traded with many other civilizations, including mesopotamia.

I do look forward to any further research on this subject. It would be fascinating to understand our history, heritage and culture better.

Yes, you and I both .

OM shanti,
Agnideva.

[I am free]

Hi Agnideva,

Originally Posted by Agnideva

Nice to see you back .

Oh I had not gone anywhere. I love CR and I come here everyday. But mostly I am a silent visitor.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were many migrations back and forth. The exchange of ideas is not a new thing to human society. If I remember right, there have been artifacts found in the Indus valley suggesting that they traded with many other civilizations, including mesopotamia.

That is the way I see it too. I feel that the question whether migration was west to east, or east to west is irrelevant. It seems more probable that in addition to trade ties there would have been strong cultural ties as well with plenty of people moving back and forth.

The harappan script has not been deciphered as yet. I feel understanding the script would open the doors to understanding what actually went on in those days.

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Originally Posted by Agnideva

Namaste Samuel,


I suppose it really depends on the definition of "monotheism" . If the definition is based on the first commandment, then Hinduism does not fit that mold.

OM Shanti,
Agnideva.

Namaste Agnideva, the same could be said of the Christian trinity

[Agnideva]

Originally Posted by Samuel Linton Boot

Namaste Agnideva, the same could be said of the Christian trinity

Hi Samuel. You're absolutely right!