Zen and Quantum Mechanics meet

[DT Strain]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste all,
In the Copenhagen view...

the Many Worlds view is...

Ah yes, of course. Thanks for the refresher. The Copenhagen view would be the functionalist, mainstream view then. While it operates just fine for a scientist taking measurements and conducting empirical work, it has many shortcomings when it comes to explanation and conceptual understanding.

Works fine for practicing scientists (for now), but philosophically insufficient it seems to me. Eventually, that lack of conceptual understanding is going to come back to bite even the Copenhagenists in the rear I think.

[chrisb73]

Originally Posted by DT Strain

But what QM is actually talking about when it says "observation" is the use of detection mechanisms, which use particles to detect the state of other particles. These detection means, which are all we have, necessarily disrupt the thing they are detecting. In other words, the detection is a physical action that intrudes on the observed materials. As you can see, this has nothing to do with consciousness determining reality. In fact, consciousness is not anywhere in QM, nor is it necessary for determination.

In fact you have got that wrong. What you decribe is the "Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle" which is often confused with the "Observer Effect". Also, a particle has no definite speed or place and only exist in the state of superposition until it is observed. So observation does not "disrupt" the things they are detecting but provoke the collapse of the wave function, which is quite different. As to whether, it has to do with consciousness or not, well it depends on which physicist you are reading...

[wil]

Originally Posted by chrisb73

As to whether, it has to do with consciousness or not, well it depends on which physicist you are reading...

That is such a wonderful statement.

Like the seasoned umpire that is asked by the rookie, "Well what if I'm not sure if it is a ball or a strike", "It isn't either until I tell them what it is."

So I believe you are indicating that this is still undetermined. But like whether you can determine location or velocity but not both, I like how the fact that what you are reading determines reality.

[chrisb73]

Originally Posted by wil

But like whether you can determine location or velocity but not both, I like how the fact that what you are reading determines reality.

I would not say what you are reading determines reality (even though this works for some . I was just implying that there are different interpretations for some of the quantum mechanics paradoxes. I am not forcing any particular view on anyone but I would not discard consciousness just yet. The only problem with that approach is that consciousness is still a problem in itself (the hard problem). Personally, I do not know what reality is and I do not know what consciousness is. Hell, I can't even tell for sure what space is!!!

[Snoopy]

Perhaps these two books might be of interest:

The Heart Sutra: Ancient Buddhist Wisdom in the Light of Quantum Reality

- and -

The Diamond Sutra: Transforming the Way we Perceive the World

both by Mu Soeng, a former Zen monk.

The creation of our “lived reality” is, I would say, fundamental to Buddhism; it is what the Buddha grappled with under the Bodhi tree. Perhaps I would also recommend, therefore, Dogen.

s.

[Avi]

Hi, I am new to this forum, so I will apologize for any naive comments I make before I start

This tread caught my attention because it is so interesting, sorry it is an old thread.

I have read through it and I really like the interface between Zen and science.

I am Jewish and many Jews have (and are) trying to make Judaism mesh with science, but there sometimes seems to be some resistance, perhaps because of tradition, or other reasons.

So I am wondering, is Zen very compatible with science ? Is there a reason why Zen might be more compatible with science than other religions ?

Thanks.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Avi1223

Hi, I am new to this forum, so I will apologize for any naive comments I make before I start

This tread caught my attention because it is so interesting, sorry it is an old thread.

I have read through it and I really like the interface between Zen and science.

I am Jewish and many Jews have (and are) trying to make Judaism mesh with science, but there sometimes seems to be some resistance, perhaps because of tradition, or other reasons.

So I am wondering, is Zen very compatible with science ? Is there a reason why Zen might be more compatible with science than other religions ?

Thanks.

Hi Avi, and welcome to IO.

I would say Zen is complimentary to science. As for being more compatible with science than other religions, perhaps. Compatibility would depend upon the dogma employed by science and the religion in question, no?

[Avi]

I would say Zen is complimentary to science. As for being more compatible with science than other religions, perhaps. Compatibility would depend upon the dogma employed by science and the religion in question, no?

Hi Seattlegal - thanks for the welcome, and nice to meet you !

Let's accept your premise. So is Zen less dogmatic than other religions, or is the dogma such that it is compatible with science or neither (or both) ?

By the way, what does dogma mean to you ? Incidentally, some people believe that Judaism does not have dogma (but I am not one of them).

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Avi1223

Hi Seattlegal - thanks for the welcome, and nice to meet you !

Let's accept your premise. So is Zen less dogmatic than other religions, or is the dogma such that it is compatible with science or neither (or both) ?

Dogma can occur in both science and religion, and can vary more between individuals than between collectives/institutions, imo. (In other words, there can be dogmatic scientists and non-dogmatic scientists, as well as dogmatic and non-dogmatic religious people.) As for Zen being less dogmatic than other religions: yes, there can be dogmatic folks who call their practice Zen. However, Zen is about going outside of regular thought patterns, (dogma included?) so any dogma will eventually be challenged by Zen practice.

By the way, what does dogma mean to you ?

Institutionalized belief, either with or without proof.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Avi1223

Hi, I am new to this forum, so I will apologize for any naive comments I make before I start

Hi Avi,

As you can see, I'm not new to this forum and I'm still talking out of my **** so don't worry about any wisdom developing

This tread caught my attention because it is so interesting, sorry it is an old thread.

Bump any old thread you like

I have read through it and I really like the interface between Zen and science.
So I am wondering, is Zen very compatible with science ? Is there a reason why Zen might be more compatible with science than other religions ?

Zen (aka Buddhism) is concerned with that which is. If that is the same concern as the scientific method then perhaps they are compatible? As sg says, perhaps they can be more comfortable together due to the dogma thing. I think the Dalai Lama said that if Buddhism conflicts with good established science then the Buddhism should change. There is also the story of the Zen Master (can't remember which one; hell I'm nearly 50) who in what we shall call a moment's inspiration burnt all his Buddhist texts.

Here's a book on my reading list:

Buddhism And Science, A Guide For The Perplexed by Lopez, Donald S

Obviously you'll also see (just from this book site) that there's plenty of books on this "interface"...

Snoopy.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

There is also the story of the Zen Master (can't remember which one; hell I'm nearly 50) who in what we shall call a moment's inspiration burnt all his Buddhist texts.

OK I googled him, T'okusan twas his name and he torched the Diamond Sutra. I'm not recommending this as it's probably a health and safety hazard. But you get the drift? Words are all we have, but we should not be attached to them, we should not confuse them with what is, which cannot be described with words.

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

OK I googled him, T'okusan twas his name and he torched the Diamond Sutra. I'm not recommending this as it's probably a health and safety hazard. But you get the drift? Words are all we have, but we should not be attached to them, we should not confuse them with what is, which cannot be described with words.

s.

Hmm...

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Perhaps these two books might be of interest:

The Heart Sutra: Ancient Buddhist Wisdom in the Light of Quantum Reality

- and -

The Diamond Sutra: Transforming the Way we Perceive the World

both by Mu Soeng, a former Zen monk.

The creation of our “lived reality” is, I would say, fundamental to Buddhism; it is what the Buddha grappled with under the Bodhi tree. Perhaps I would also recommend, therefore, Dogen.

s.

Do you think he was trying to generate a little light, or a little heat, or both?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Hmm...
Do you think he was trying to generate a little light, or a little heat, or both?

Maybe it just shows there ain't no central authority?

Maybe you can burn the books, but maybe you should read them first. You know, take the boat journey, then discard the boat.

Or maybe he was just a show off!

s.

[Avi]

However, Zen is about going outside of regular thought patterns, (dogma included?) so any dogma will eventually be challenged by Zen practice.

Can you please explain to me how someone goes “outside of regular thought patterns” ?
You also mentioned Zen challenges all dogma. Is any dogma considered acceptable ? What does Zen think about the Ten Commandments ?

I have been reading about Zen and it seems like a very "evolved" religion.

Does Zen have any ideas related to pacifism ?

What about racial, gender and same sex equality ?

What are the biggest differences between Zen and Abrahamic religions ?

[citizenzen]

I don't presume to answet for SG, but I will give you my answers to your questions.

Originally Posted by Avi1223

Can you please explain to me how someone goes “outside of regular thought patterns” ?

Zen does not exist outside of regular thought patterns. My thoughts arise and fade just like everybody.

You also mentioned Zen challenges all dogma. Is any dogma considered acceptable ?

Dogma may help guide you to enlightenment, but it should not be mistaken for such. Enlightenment itself does not require dogma.

What does Zen think about the Ten Commandments ?

What does Christianity think about the Eight Fold Path?

Does Zen have any ideas related to pacifism ?

Zen values the life of all beings. Even enemies.

What about racial, gender and same sex equality ?

Zen is egalitarian.

What are the biggest differences between Zen and Abrahamic religions ?

Zen does not require a God as the source for wisdom, love and salvation. But you can keep yours if you like.