Zen koans, anyone?

[I, Brian]

I have to say, I find the Koans and Mondos perplexing. None seem as like answers in a rational sense. I gather that is precisely the point, though?

I can understand the need for someone to learn for themselves upon a journey of spiritual exploration, thus comprehend their experience - rather than simply be provided with a shopping list of "Truth". I presume that part of the emphasis in the Koans and Mondos is very much a part of that?

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I have to say, I find the Koans and Mondos perplexing. None seem as like answers in a rational sense. I gather that is precisely the point, though?

I can understand the need for someone to learn for themselves upon a journey of spiritual exploration, thus comprehend their experience - rather than simply be provided with a shopping list of "Truth". I presume that part of the emphasis in the Koans and Mondos is very much a part of that?

Namaste Brian,

yes, that is very much the case. generally speaking koans and modos were given by a teacher to a student based upon the students need, as such, any given koan or mondo may or may not make much sense or be of any meditive value.

a well used analogy that still seems to work is.. that of the menu and the food. whilst reading the menu will give you an intellectual understanding of the meal, it's the actual experience of eating the food that is what is important.

[Dave the Web]

And I thought Christianity could be confusing!

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Dave the Web

And I thought Christianity could be confusing!

Namaste Dave,

it can be one of the things that, in my opinion, is necessary to understand other religions is the culture in which they came from. Buddhism, luckily for us, comes from the Indian culture of which there are plenty of history and cultural books from which we can educate ourselves to the particular world view of that people.

when we can understand their world view, in my opinion, only then can we begin to truly understand what the religion is trying to convey. to be sure, we can read books that are devoid of the culture (i.e. the religious texts themselves) however, many of the things that they talk about are presupposed to be understood by the reader.

actually, we find this same type of thing in every reglious text that we read. we pretty much need an understanding of the area and times or a lot of the text is incomprehensible.

[I, Brian]

Absolutely right about context.

Without trying to divert the thread, I've found some important references in the Bible that have cultural connotations that can completely change their meaning.

For example, the famous quote by Jesus about how a rich man has about as much chance of entering Heaven as a fully laden camel through the eye of the needle. It turns out that apparently there was a gate to the Jerusalem Temple, that was very small - enough for a mule - and was known as "the Needle". A 1st century Judaic audience would understand this - and would probably laugh at the absurd imagery. In fact, this would therefore mean that Jesus effectively told a joke. Which in itself is a much more satisfying rendition of the comment, but one where the context is apparently lost.

[bob x]

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?" is actually a mondo, not a koan. When the student comes back with some ponderous philosophical answer, or else gives up in frustration and asks "So what IS the sound of one hand clapping?", the master slaps him across the face.

[xamnzero]

Nan-in received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

- -

[Vajradhara]

Case 42.


Introduction

Bringing it out,
unique and alone,
is still dripping with water,
dragging through the mud.
When knocking and resounding occur together,
(it’s still like) a silver mountain, an iron wall.
If you describe and discuss, you see ghosts in front of your skull.
If you seek it in thought, you sit beneath the black mountain.
The bright shining sun lights up the sky.
The pure whispering wind circles the earth.

But say, do the Ancients have any obscurities? To test I’m citing this old case. Look.

The Main Case:

When Layman Pang took leave of Yao Shan, Shan ordered ten Ch’an travelers to escort him to the gate. The Layman pointed to the snow in the air and said, 'Good snowflakes, they don’t fall in any other place.' At the time one of the Ch’an travelers, named Ch’uan, said, 'Where do they fall?' The Layman slapped him once. Ch’uan said, 'Even a layman shouldn’t be so coarse.' The Layman said, 'Though you call yourself a Ch’an traveler this way the King of Death still won’t let you go.' Ch’uan said, 'How about you, Layman?' Again the Layman slapped him and said, 'Your eyes see like a blind man, your mouth speaks like a mute.' Hsueh Tou said besides, 'When Pang first spoke I just would have made a snowball and hit him with it.'

Master Hsueh Tou’s Verse:

The snowball hits! The snowball hits!
Old Pang’s ability cannot grasp it.
Gods and humans do not know for themselves.
In eyes, in ears, absolutely clean.
Absolutely clean—Even the blue-eyed barbarian monk Bodhidharma would find it hard to discriminate.

'Your eyes see like a blind man, you mouth speaks like a mute. ' The footnote calls this a conciliatory statement , the reading of the verdict by him. Setcho said, when Pang first spoke, I just would have made a snowball and hit him with it. What does he mean, 'Beautiful snowflakes they fall nowhere else?' Is it snowing on the other mountain, or is just snowing here? Is snowing in Woodstock, or is just snowing here?

Yakusan was a successor of Sekito, the person P'ang first experienced enlightenment with. And when he was getting ready to leave, Yakusan, who thought very highly of P'ang, ordered ten of his monks to accompany P'ang to the gate. Now you can bet your life that it wasn't an arbitrary choice, and that Zenkaku, the monk that asked the question, didn't just happen to be one of the monks that went along. There was a good reason that Yakusan sent who he sent. And the footnotes that Engo adds to this help clarify a lot of what's going on. Let me take it line by line for you.

'When Layman P'ang took leave of Yakusan' - and the footnote says, 'This old fellow is acting strange.' Taking leave of Yakusan - why is that strange? Why would it be strange, taking leave? Where would he go? 'Yakusan ordered ten of his monks to escort him to the gate.' And the footnote says, 'Yakusan does not take him lightly. What realm is this?' - that he sent ten monks to escort him to the gate. 'Only a patched-robed monk who knows the whole thing could give P'ang this treatment.' What treatment? He asked ten people to escort him to the gate. What was the treatment? So obviously, something is going on. Right off you know something is going on. This is not a casual 'Let's say goodbye to the guests.' , 'Beautiful snowflakes. They don't fall in any other place.' And the footnote to that says, 'He stirs up waves where there's no wind.' Of course, what that means is, everything is perfect and complete where it is, but what teachers do is they create complications.

That's part of their job, creating complications. So we call it gouging out healthy flesh, or stirring up waves where there's no wind. Creating problems where there aren't any problems. Then it goes on to say, 'The finger he points with has eyes.' In other words, this is a - the finger that he's pointing with is an enlightened finger. It's not a casual pointing. That's it's a dharma pointing. And then he goes on to say, 'There's an echo in this old fellow's words.' In other words, there's something that's going to reverberate when he opens his mouth and says something. It's not over. It doesn't just fall flat or dissolve into the woodwork. It echoes, bounces back and forth again and again.
'They don't fall anywhere else.' And what the footnote says on that - 'Where do they fall?' The footnote says, 'On target.'

[Vajradhara]

Introduction

The great capacity of buddhas and ancestors is completely within this person’s control. The lifeline of humans and gods is subject to this person’s direction. With a casual word or phrase she astounds the crowd and stirs the masses. With one device, one object, she smashes chains and knocks off fetters. Meeting transcendental potential she brings up transcendental matters. But tell me, who has ever appeared like this? Is there anyone who knows where this person is? To test I cite this story. Look!

The Case

Huang-po instructing the community said: All of you students are gobblers of dregs. If you go about traveling in this way, if you go about like this, when will you meet today? Don’t you know that there is no zen teacher in all of the land of China.

At that moment a student came forward and said: What about all those people who teach meditation and lead communities?

Huang-po said: I did not say that there was no zen; it’s just that there are no teachers of zen.