Zen koans, anyone?

[brian]

Anyone familar with ridiculous sounding questions, such as:

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Well, that's what's referred to in Zen Buddhism as a Koan.

I thought I'd open this thread and see how many Koans we could collect, and then see about finding the answers to them.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Brian,

thank you for the post.

yes, i'm very familiar with Zen and it's koan's...

i would characterize them more as "nonsensical" rather than ridiculous... and as for finding answers

often the Koan is given to a student until they understand it... and this can take years depending on the capabilities of the student.

there are two Koans that i really think are provoking...

one is a modern koan:

Picture a massless particle.

the other one that i like is:

When the Many are reduced to One, to what is the One reduced?

[Elizabeth May]

A massless particle? Doesn't that look like,,wait a mo,, !;D

[Elizabeth May]

Oh hi and welcome to comparative religion, Vajradhara!

[Vajradhara]

Namaste,

thank you for the welcome

[brian]

A massless particle? Is a photon not massless? In which case to picture a massless particle I need only picture light?

Or am I being too literal here? I never was very good at riddles.

[Iacchus]

I think koans are more like rhetorical questions in response to inquiries about the nature of reality - that must ultimately be answered for oneself. For example, here are a few examples from Alan Watts', Behold the Spirit ...

In answer to a question about the meaning of Reality an old master simply held up his fly-whisk, and another master asked one of his monks to explain the action. "The master's idea," replied the monk, "was to elucidate the spiritual along with the material, to reveal truth by means of an objective reality." "Your understanding," said the master, "is all right as far as it goes. But why are you in such a hurry to make theories about it?" At this the monk asked, "What, then, will be your explanation?" The master held up his own fly-whisk.

"What is the meaning of religion?" ... "A refreshing breeze stirred in the blue sky."

"What is the Tao (i.e., God, Reality)?" ... "Walk on!"

"What is the ultimate word of truth?" ... "Yes."

"I asked, what is the ultimate word of truth?" ... "I'm not deaf!"

"I have just come to this monastery; please give me some instruction." ... "Have you had your breakfast?" ... "Yes." ... "Then wash your dishes."

[Dave the Web]

I like the last one. It made me smile!

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Brian,

thank you for the post.

a photon does, indeed, have mass though it's quite literally not discernable apart from the observation.. Heisneberg's principle at work there...

recall that energy is mass and vice versa so the photon has a mass... generally though, the modern physics would posit a different type of mass... a "resting mass" for the photon even though the photon itself is never "at rest".

ahh... you've got to like modern quantum physics


also, something to keep in mind... Zen uses to techniques... Koan and Mondo. basically, the Koan has no rational answer and is desgined to provoke the mind from it's habitual patterns whereas the Mondo does have a rational answer and is usually given as a meditation point.

*ducks as the Soto and Rinzai folks throw their zafus at me*

[Arch]

'What is the sound of a mute person laughing'?
Would that count as a koan?

[brian]

Rest mass - ah, of course.

basically, the Koan has no rational answer and is desgined to provoke the mind from it's habitual patterns

And that explains a great deal! Mondos is not a topic I remember encountering - which you be interested in taking this up?

As to the quotes system - sorry - new board coming next week that should make it all much easier.

[Vajradhara]

And that explains a great deal! Mondos is not a topic I remember encountering - which you be interested in taking this up?

As to the quotes system - sorry - new board coming next week that should make it all much easier.

Namaste Brian,

no problems... i'm getting it figured out

as for your question... i'm afraid that i don't quite follow... could you clarify?

[brian]

I was simply asking for a quick example of a Mondo - though I'll do a quick search on Google instead.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Brian,

ah... i see it now.. it was worded a bit oddly for me

nevertheless...

there are a few things that we need to keep in mind...

a mondo is a process, if you will, of verifying or testing the student to see if there is a proper understanding of the Dharma. it is commonly referred to as "Dharma Combat" which connotes something which it isn't it's really more of a running Q&A between a master and student.

by contrast, a koan is typcially a phrase that the student mediates over and it does not have a logical answer.

a few examples of mondos:

"I am going to pose a question," King Milinda said to Venerable Nagasena. "Can you answer?"
Nagasena said, "Please ask your question."
The king said, "I have already asked."
Nagasena said, "I have already answered."
The king said, "What did you answer?"
Nagasena said, "What did you ask?"
The king said, "I asked nothing."
Nagasena said, "I answered nothing."

A Zen Master was asked by a monk: "What is Buddha?"
And he replied: "The cat is climbing up a post."
When the monk confessed that he could not understand the Master, the latter said: "You go ask the post."

Question: "In what way do my hands resemble the Buddha's hands?"
Answer: "Playing the lute in the midnight."
Question: "In what way do my feet resemble the feet of a donkey?"
Answer: "When the heron stands in snow, its color is not the same."

D.T. Suzuki tells of a disciple who asked a Zen Master: "With what frame of mind should one discipline oneself in the truth?"
And the Master answered: "There is no mind to be framed, nor is there any truth in which to be disciplined."
"If there is no mind to be framed and no truth in which to be disciplined, why do you have a daily gathering of monks who are studying Zen and disciplining themselves in the truth?"
The Master replied: "I have not an inch of space to spare, and where could I have a gathering of monks? I have no tongue, and how would it be possible for me to advise others to come to me?"
The questioner then examined: "How can you tell me a lie like that to my face?"
The Master said: "When I have no tongue to advise others, is it possible for me to tell a lie?"
The disciple then said despairingly: "I cannot follow your reasoning."
"Neither do I understand myself," concluded the Zen Master.

A monk asked Chao-Chou, "If a poor man comes, what should one give him?"
"He lacks nothing," answered the Master.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

something else to keep in mind... recall the setting in which Koans and the like were formed... a monastic setting. these statements that have been recorded as koan's are not the normal way of speaking in a Zen monastary, it's precisely because the turn of phrase is so odd that it has been preserved.

there is a concept in Zen called "special pointing to outside of doctrine" and that is the specail method by with the Zen master transfers his knowledge to the student.

gassho.