teachings of Jesus christ or human philosophy?

mee

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Why is it an evidence of clear thinking to study the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of human philosophy?



Col. 1:15-17: "He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth . . . All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist." (His intimate relationship with God enables him to help us to learn the truth about God. Furthermore, as the one through whom all other things were made, Jesus has a full knowledge of the entire created universe. No human philosopher can offer any of this.)




Col. 1:19, 20: "God saw good for all fullness to dwell in him [Jesus Christ], and through him to reconcile again to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake." (Thus Jesus Christ is the one through whom God has purposed to bring all creation back into harmony with himself. To Jesus, God has also entrusted rulership over all the earth, as shown at Daniel 7:13, 14. So our life prospects for the future depend on getting to know him and responding favorably to his instruction.)




Col. 2:8: "Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." (What a sad mistake it would be to choose such deceptive human philosophy in preference to acquiring true wisdom as a disciple of Jesus Christ, the second-greatest person in the universe, next to God himself!)




How does God view the "wisdom" offered by human philosophy?




1 Cor. 1:19-25: "It is written: ‘I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual men I will shove aside.’ Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness [as it appears to the world] of what is preached to save those believing. . . . Because a foolish thing of God [as the world views it] is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God [as the world may see it] is stronger than men." (Such a viewpoint on God’s part is certainly not arbitrary or unreasonable. He has provided in the Bible, the most widely circulated book in the world, a clear statement of his purpose. He has sent his witnesses to discuss it with all who will listen. How foolish for any creature to think that he has wisdom greater than that of God!)
 

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In Human Philosophy there is intense debate. In Christ there is just truth?
 

Thomas

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Hi Mee —

Why is it an evidence of clear thinking to study the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of human philosophy?

Because Revelation transcends reason?
But then, without reason, how are you going to understand Revelation?

+++

Philosophy is a Greek word, and means "the love of wisdom" or "the love of knowledge". Likewise theology means "the knowledge/wisdom of God"

Sacred Scripture says:

Matthew 22:37-38
"Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment."

Mark 12:29-30
"And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.

Luke 10:27
"He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself."

So the study of philosophy is obedience to Christ's commandment.

The Parable of the Talents says "And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability" (Matthew 25:15)

I hope I am making good use of the talents God gave me.

Thomas
 

Thomas

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Hi Mee —

Why is it an evidence of clear thinking to study the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of human philosophy?

Hi Mee —

As the founders of the Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim direct revelation, but a 'new interpretation' of Scripture ... then they decided, at some point, to depart from the Tradition of Scripture, according to their own philosophy ... obviously.

As Rutherford led the organisation in a completely different direction to that of Charles Taze Russell's, then we can see further evidence of human philosophy determining the course of things.

So our life prospects for the future depend on getting to know him and responding favorably to his instruction.)
And yet you act so unfavourably towards Him, for you must admit, whatever you do say, you reduce and limit His status according to older, Apostolic traditions.

How foolish for any creature to think that he has wisdom greater than that of God!)
Yes, indeed ... and yet you have decided what God can and can't do.

The Roman Catholic, the Orthodox and the Oriental Churches treat Scripture as a teaching without limitation, we seek to discover the fullness of what it can mean ...

... for example, if Scripture is true, and "Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell" (Colossians 1:19) — then that fullness of the Father is His nature ... His divinity.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Now, let us see you exercise your human philosophy to explain why the Father and the Son are not one ... because to us, it means what it says.

Thomas
 

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John 10

29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

The question then is what is meant by the term "one?"

John 14

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? The person who has seen me has seen the Father. So how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Jesus doesn't say that he is the Father. Yet I and the Father are one. What then is "one?" How is Philip to know if he hasn't seen Jesus?
 

mee

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Hi Mee —





John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."



Thomas


I and the Father are one." john 10;30



Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation



yes Jesus is in unity and cooperation with his father, the same way that his followers are in unity with him.


its the right thing to be doing , unity of purpose works wonders:)


in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.
john 17;21

 

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Hi Mee —

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation
But we would view that as interpreting according to human philosophy, that is considered in a purely human light, but Jesus' words are not purely human, they are Spirit, and Truth, and not subject to human limitation. We read for the fullest meaning, and go for that.

Thomas
 

mee

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Hi Mee —


But we would view that as interpreting according to human philosophy, that is considered in a purely human light, but Jesus' words are not purely human, they are Spirit, and Truth, and not subject to human limitation. We read for the fullest meaning, and go for that.

Thomas

What, though, did Jesus mean when he said, "I and the Father are one"?
J. H. Bernard, D.D., states in A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to St. John:
"A unity of fellowship, of will, and of purpose between the Father and the Son is a frequent theme in the Fourth Gospel . . . , and it is tersely and powerfully expressed here; but to press the words so as to make them indicate identity of ousia [Greek for "substance," "essence"], is to introduce thoughts which were not present to the theologians of the first century."—Compare John 5:18, 19; 14:9, 23; 17:11, 22.


The teaching that Jesus is coequal and coeternal with God has no foundation in the inspired Scriptures. From start to finish it is evidence of Christendom’s borrowing from the Greek philosopher Plato.
 

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Hi Mee —

Nice quote you picked up of J.H. Bernard, DD, but there's little point in opposing one piece of human philosophy with another, is there?

Might I also point out that J.H. Bernard was a Catholic, so despite whatever criticism he might offer, he still believes the Catholic Faith is the one, true faith. I suggest you acquaint yourself with his works, rather than copy a comment you've picked up in isolation.

I very much doubt he would agree with your doctrine, so I'd be careful who you cite in defence of it.

+++

The teaching that Jesus is coequal and coeternal with God has no foundation in the inspired Scriptures. From start to finish it is evidence of Christendom’s borrowing from the Greek philosopher Plato.
This seems like a cut n paste from another forum, quoting a kindred spirit of yours, another anti-Catholic ranter?

The depth of his wisdom can be seen by a following question: "What was Jesus, Yahweh & the Holy Ghost doing in Marry's tummy for nine months ??? Who was running the earth, our solar system, and indeed the entire Universe while they were all in there for nine months ???"
Because it evidences the degree of his ignorance.

You'll need to do better than this.

Thomas
 

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1914: Teachings of Jesus Christ or human philosophy?

And where does Jesus, indeed where does Scripture, say anything about 1914?

Thomas
 

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Hi Mee —


But we would view that as interpreting according to human philosophy, that is considered in a purely human light, but Jesus' words are not purely human, they are Spirit, and Truth, and not subject to human limitation. We read for the fullest meaning, and go for that.

Thomas

The role of the "experts." They guide us to the fullest meaning. Where would we be without them?
 

mee

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Might I also point out that J.H. Bernard was a Catholic, so despite whatever criticism he might offer, he still believes the Catholic Faith

Thomas
:) and there we have it , :) these ones know what the bible really teaches , but they are not after truth inline with the bible . make no mistake about it ,there are many who know that the bible does not teach what the church promotes , but they are into the manmade trinity doctrine instead. the truth of the bible is not important to them.


but for mee and others who are after the truth of what the bible teaches, it is important to put our beliefs inline with what the bible REALLY teaches. and it isnt the manmade trinity doctrine
 

mee

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Re: 1914: Teachings of Jesus Christ or human philosophy?

And where does Jesus, indeed where does Scripture, say anything about 1914?

Thomas
for those who are into bible prophecy, and keeping awake to bible prophecy , and into the chronology of the bible , the very significant date of 1914 is very clear to see .

And the signs that Jesus left are also very clear to see , but many take no note, or even refuse to take note .

yes the GOODNEWS of the kingdom , and the goodnews that Jesus is a reigning king , are very clear to see indeed.
And it is being made known ,i think the book WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REALLY TEACH published by Jehovahs witnesses is so informative and really helps us to gain an accurate knowledge of the bible , and i especially like this bit which goes into the 1914 date :) and it is very clear to see




1914 A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy

DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?




As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.




How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.




When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.


In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership.
(Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5)
So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?




Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.




The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.




Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.:)
 

mee

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Hi Mee —



You'll need to do better than this.

Thomas
I do not need to do any better than what the bible really teaches, and it is clear as can be that Jesus said ,

the father is greater than i am

Jesus Christ himself said, "The Father is greater than I am" and referred to the Father as his God, "the only true God." (Joh 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Mr 15:34; Re 1:1; 3:12)

On numerous occasions Jesus expressed his inferiority and subordination to his Father. (Mt 4:9, 10; 20:23; Lu 22:41, 42; Joh 5:19; 8:42; 13:16)

Even after Jesus’ ascension into heaven his apostles continued to present the same picture.—1Co 11:3; 15:20, 24-28; 1Pe 1:3; 1Jo 2:1; 4:9, 10.


the bible always puts us straight in more ways than one :)
 

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Re: 1914: Teachings of Jesus Christ or human philosophy?

for those who are into bible prophecy, and keeping awake to bible prophecy, and into the chronology of the bible, the very significant date of 1914 is very clear to see...

Unless you can show me where the text says '1914' — you have arrived at it by a process of reasoning, not revelation.

To insist on this on the one hand, and yet refute the Divinity of Christ, or the Doctrine of the Trinity, as being 'non-scriptural' is pure contradictions, and shows how partisan your approach to Scripture is.

Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ...

How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians.

Yet Jesus is making a prophecy about the future isn't He? He'd hardly be a prophet if He's fortelling something that happened half a millenia previously!

No, this is your reading of Luke, ignoring the context of the text and fishing out only those bits with which to construct a false picture.

What about the destruction of the temple in 70AD, for instance?

Everything else that follows is your own highly creative interpretation of biblical data to arrive at something that, as you state, you were looking for and determined to find.

Unless you can show me '1914', it is sheer hypocrisy to claim that the Divinity of Jesus or the Doctrine of the Trinity is a fabrication because the text doesn't say so, and then arrive at your own doctrine which is not stated in the text either, but which requires a good deal of free and creative interpretation of the data.

You are awake to what you want to see, asleep to what you don't.

Thomas
 

mee

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Re: 1914: Teachings of Jesus Christ or human philosophy?

You are awake to what you want to see, asleep to what you don't.

Thomas
Jehovahs witnesses are awake to the signs of the times ,


Christ
Is Present

Pa·rou·si´a
—What Does It Mean?

The
Sign of Christ’s Presence

Christ’s Active Presence


In the face of increasing daily evidence that the multifaceted sign of Christ’s presence is being fulfilled, it is evident to alert Christians that we are facing the end of an epoch.


Now is the time to "pay more than the usual attention" to the enthroned King, Christ Jesus. (Hebrews 2:1)

He admonishes us: "Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man."—Luke 21:36.

As recorded at Matthew 24:3, the apostles asked: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?"


yes its all happening since 1914

In spite of the ruin caused by two world wars, the enthroned King, Christ Jesus, has actively participated in forging a new nation of people—a people for Jehovah’s name "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues."
Revelation 7:9, 10.


its all happening in the last days :)









 

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Re: 1914: Teachings of Jesus Christ or human philosophy?

Hi Mee —

for those who are into bible prophecy, and keeping awake to bible prophecy, and into the chronology of the bible, the very significant date of 1914 is very clear to see.
OK. Let's have a look.

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation — the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.
OK.

How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians.
Hang on.

If we look at Luke in its proper context, we can do so by attention to the prior verses:
Luke 21:5-6
"And some saying of the temple, that it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he (Jesus) said: These things which you see, the days will come in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone that shall not be thrown down."
As you can see from my emphasis, Jesus is making a prophetic statement, that is, He is speaking of those things which will come to pass in the fullness of time. He is not speaking about something that happened 600 years previously.

Luke 21:7-10
"And they asked him, saying: Master, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when they shall begin to come to pass? Who said: Take heed you be not seduced; for many will come in my name, saying, I am he; and the time is at hand: go ye not therefore after them. And when you shall hear of wars and seditions, be not terrified: these things must first come to pass; but the end is not yet presently."
Reading the above, if Christ says "the end is not yet presently" — then again, to retro-fit His words to mean something that happened over half a millenia before is to contradict His very own words.

Indeed, in light of this alone, I would sound a note of warning: "Take heed you be not seduced; for many will come in my name, saying, I am he; and the time is at hand: go ye not therefore after them."

It seems to me, you are consistently saying "the time is at hand" — as I read it, you stand among those of whom Christ spoke of as 'false prophets'. But I doubt you will see it that way, so let's continue ...

Luke 21:10-12
"Then he said to them: Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there shall be great earthquakes in divers places, and pestilences, and famines, and terrors from heaven; and there shall be great signs. But before all these things, they will lay their hands upon you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, dragging you before kings and governors, for my name's sake."

So before anything, the Christians to whom He is speaking will suffer persecution, and the persecution of the Chriostian will happen "before all these things" ... so yet again, Christ is fortelling events to come, He is not referencing thimngs thast have already happened.

So this is my concern, Mee — your doctrine is not only erroneous, it is intentionally erroneous, and it manipulates Scripture to suit its own ends.

You have fabricated an entire prophetic message which fundamentally ignores and actually contradicts the Word of Scripture.

+++

As the various books proclaiming to have 'cracked the Bible code' show, and as mathematicians have proven, by cutting up the text, altering the context and rearranging it to suit your argument, as you do, you can make Scripture argue anything you like.

This is precisely what you do.

Thomas
 

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Re: 1914: Teachings of Jesus Christ or human philosophy?

Unless you can show me '1914', it is sheer hypocrisy to claim that the Divinity of Jesus or the Doctrine of the Trinity is a fabrication because the text doesn't say so, and then arrive at your own doctrine which is not stated in the text either, but which requires a good deal of free and creative interpretation of the data.

Thomas

That's a devasting "Theological" right uppercut!
 
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