Creativity Movement...

[enlightenment]

Dear oh dear, a discussion on another forum brought them to my attention.

Ben Klassen (dead), and the man that took over, Matt Hale (serving 40 years for conspiracy to murder, AFAIK).

A quick scan of their official website was enough to convince me they are just another hate group (like many others), however, the difference here is that in the US, they are regarded(legally) as a religion - .

Although I am not religous myself, I cannot fairly regard the CM as a religion, not in the accepted sense of the word. Can you? What precisely are the criterea in the US for being recognised as a religion? Do they differ hugely from the criterea in the UK, or other parts of Europe?


Thanks

 

[wil]

I've spent a good two minutes clicking on a couple of sites to find them a neo nazi white racist hate group and not worth any more of my time or discussion.

I feel that they require confrontation and discussion to survive and I'm not willing to help in that regard.

As for religious status, in the US this is a first amendment, tax status argued entity, one of the things where the thought is to cover everyone so as not to eliminate any that deserve it.

 

[enlightenment]

As for religious status, in the US this is a first amendment, tax status argued entity, one of the things where the thought is to cover everyone so as not to eliminate any that deserve it.

Do you think that when the founding fathers of the US came up with the consitution, they one day thought that groups such as Creativity would exploit said amendment, Wil?

Would you afford them the 'right' to be a religion?

 

[enlightenment]

If this group are a recognised religion in the US, does it afford them any tax exempt status?

 

[Out of the Box]

The Creativity Movement has two basic premises :

• Jews were orriginally a band of thieves, pimps and whores who understood the power of religion and used it in two ways : they used Judaism to bind their people together as a distinct group for thousands of years and they invented Christianity to destroy the white peoples of Europe.
• The laws and principles of nature are superior to any law of man and any philosophy based on the laws and principles of nature is superior to any philosophy that is not.

As such, the Creativity Movement mixes an extreme variant of antisemitism with a nature-inspired rationalist philosophy and calls it a religion because it strongly believes in the power of religion.

William Pierce, a far more succesful "far right" activist in the US also founded his own nature-inspired religion, which he called Cosmotheism. Pierce (also a racist and antisemite) nevertheless clearly separated his religious and his political views. He also founded a political movement (the National Alliance) separate from the Cosmotheist movement which focussed on socio-political issues solely, whereas his Cosmotheist movement focusses on spiritual issues.

More peculiar than both Klassen and Pierce is a guy named David Myatt. Myatt once was a convinced national-socialist and the leader of the very dangerous skinhead-movement Combat-18. Later in life he took distance from these violent nitwits and founded a nature-based spiritual philosophy called The Ominous Way. Myatt at some point also converted to Islam and called himself Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt. It is not clear to me, however, whether his conversion to Islam came before of after he came up with his new religion.


Does any of these nature-oriented spiritual movements deserve to be acknowledged as a religion in spite of their hostile views towards Jews and blacks? It's quite a tricky question. One can argue that any religion should be free of hostility towards others, but then what about Judeo-Christianity? Aren't Talmud and Thora full of anti-Goy rhetoric? Don't both traditional Christians and Muslems call for religious strife with "infidels"? I we ban the Creativity Movement, Cosmotheism and The Ominous Way or we do not acknowledge them as religions, shouldn't we do the same with Judeo-Christianity? If not, then on what grounds can we make a distinction?

 

[17th Angel]

"If the evil forces led by the Jews are victorious, future humanity is doomed to tens of thousands of years of slavery, misery, and bestiality, a situation from which there is no reversal and from which it can never recover. "


LMAO!!! I love their facts...... They have forseen!!!! Bestiality? lol kinky... They like the average religious group..... Loonies to be taken with a pinch of salt. Right off the front page of their site..

I sent them a long winded email.... Yew knew....

Feel free to email them your thoughts too That's what the webmaster is there for...

 

[enlightenment]

The Creativity Movement has two basic premises :

• Jews were orriginally a band of thieves, pimps and whores who understood the power of religion and used it in two ways : they used Judaism to bind their people together as a distinct group for thousands of years and they invented Christianity to destroy the white peoples of Europe.
• The laws and principles of nature are superior to any law of man and any philosophy based on the laws and principles of nature is superior to any philosophy that is not.

As such, the Creativity Movement mixes an extreme variant of antisemitism with a nature-inspired rationalist philosophy and calls it a religion because it strongly believes in the power of religion.

William Pierce, a far more succesful "far right" activist in the US also founded his own nature-inspired religion, which he called Cosmotheism. Pierce (also a racist and antisemite) nevertheless clearly separated his religious and his political views. He also founded a political movement (the National Alliance) separate from the Cosmotheist movement which focussed on socio-political issues solely, whereas his Cosmotheist movement focusses on spiritual issues.

More peculiar than both Klassen and Pierce is a guy named David Myatt. Myatt once was a convinced national-socialist and the leader of the very dangerous skinhead-movement Combat-18. Later in life he took distance from these violent nitwits and founded a nature-based spiritual philosophy called The Ominous Way. Myatt at some point also converted to Islam and called himself Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt. It is not clear to me, however, whether his conversion to Islam came before of after he came up with his new religion.


Does any of these nature-oriented spiritual movements deserve to be acknowledged as a religion in spite of their hostile views towards Jews and blacks? It's quite a tricky question. One can argue that any religion should be free of hostility towards others, but then what about Judeo-Christianity? Aren't Talmud and Thora full of anti-Goy rhetoric? Don't both traditional Christians and Muslems call for religious strife with "infidels"? I we ban the Creativity Movement, Cosmotheism and The Ominous Way or we do not acknowledge them as religions, shouldn't we do the same with Judeo-Christianity? If not, then on what grounds can we make a distinction?

Good post.

Interesting.

Thanks

 

[bananabrain]

what about Judeo-Christianity? Aren't Talmud and Thora full of anti-Goy rhetoric?

no, OOTB, they are *not*. where on earth did you hear that? where on earth are you learning about judaism? perhaps you'd like to bring an example over to the judaism board?

dauer posted this link recently, which should be a salient response to the misrepresentation of the talmud as a document of hate. it is not. have a read:

The Real Truth About The Talmud

if you still think there's something to discuss, i look forward to hearing from you.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

You know I considered responding and re-posting that link but then I thought to myself: nahhh BB'll probably see it and he won't let that fly either.

 

[Out of the Box]

no, OOTB, they are *not*. where on earth did you hear that? where on earth are you learning about judaism? perhaps you'd like to bring an example over to the judaism board?

My experiences with Jews are them shouting "antisemite" and rarely post any serious arguments the minute you make a statement critical of their history, their religion or the zionist state. Hence, I'm quite reluctant to make critical remarks on the Judaism board.

dauer posted this link recently, which should be a salient response to the misrepresentation of the talmud as a document of hate. it is not. have a read:

The Real Truth About The Talmud

if you still think there's something to discuss, i look forward to hearing from you.

When we look at both Torah and Talmud, we notice claims that God has made the Jews his chosen people. We see how crimes by Jews against gentiles are often supported by God (from fraud to genocide), whereas crimes by gentiles against Jews are treated like crimes against God himself. etc.

That's why Judaism a very racist and supremacist belief system.

 

[dauer]

My experiences with Jews are them shouting "antisemite" and rarely post any serious arguments the minute you make a statement critical of their history, their religion of the zionist state. Hence, I'm quite reluctant to make critical remarks on the Judaism board.

It's pretty unlikely you'd get that type of response here. Anyway, not all Jews are zionists and not all zionists are Jews.

When we look at both Torah and Talmud, we notice claims that God has made the Jews his chosen people.

If you're making that statement then you don't understand the Jewish concept of chosenness. There's an explicit statement in the talmud explaining that G!d doesn't care so much about what a person is born as. Some Jews are born as kohanim (priests) and some aren't, but that's not what matters to G!d. Even a gentile can be as righteous in G!d's eyes, as it were, as the kohen gadol, the high priest. We also hold that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come.

We see how crimes by Jews against gentiles are often supported by God (from fraud to genocide), whereas crimes by gentiles against Jews are treated like crimes against God himself. etc.

No, biblically both the actions of Israel and the actions of other nations are at times connected to the Divine. One of the shifts in Judaism is that the actions of other nations against Israel are attributed to Israel's G!d, marking a shift from henotheism to monotheism. To the rest of what you've said, that link posted by BB will clear up some of your misconceptions about how Judaism views Jews and non-Jews and the relationship between the two. There may be individual Jews or communities that disagree, but in so doing they're going against Jewish values, not aligning themselves with them.

 

[c0de]

"If the evil forces led by the Jews are victorious, future humanity is doomed to tens of thousands of years of slavery, misery, and bestiality, a situation from which there is no reversal and from which it can never recover. "


LMAO!!! I love their facts...... They have forseen!!!! Bestiality? lol kinky... They like the average religious group..... Loonies to be taken with a pinch of salt. Right off the front page of their site..

I sent them a long winded email.... Yew knew....

Feel free to email them your thoughts too That's what the webmaster is there for...

*Points Finger at Alex and Laughs* HA HA!

Alex Uses Hotmail!!!!! LOL

This user desperately requires gmail!! Stat!

 

[bananabrain]

When we look at both Torah and Talmud, we notice claims that God has made the Jews his chosen people. We see how crimes by Jews against gentiles are often supported by God (from fraud to genocide), whereas crimes by gentiles against Jews are treated like crimes against God himself. etc. That's why Judaism a very racist and supremacist belief system.

i see.

My experiences with Jews are them shouting "antisemite"

gosh, i wonder why that could be?

the phrase "quack, quack, swim, swim, orange sauce" leaps irresistibly to mind.

do you have any serious or indeed specific criticism of our history or religion? let's leave the state out of this for the moment, criticism of israel can be perfectly valid and will only muddy this particular argument. go on, then, let's hear it. give us a statement you'd like to criticise from a jewish text.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

I do want to suggest, even if this isn't taken to the Judaism forum, that it might be a good idea to create a new thread and I can move the related posts there so this thread isn't driven terribly far off-topic (and if this discussion continues as I believe it will then this whole thread will be driven very far off course.) Any objections? If not, OotB, if you create the thread I'll move the posts.

 

[Out of the Box]

Anyway, not all Jews are zionists and not all zionists are Jews.

I'm aware of that. Most Jews remotely interested in politics seem to be at least marginally in support of Israel, though.

If you're making that statement then you don't understand the Jewish concept of chosenness. There's an explicit statement in the talmud explaining that G!d doesn't care so much about what a person is born as. Some Jews are born as kohanim (priests) and some aren't, but that's not what matters to G!d. Even a gentile can be as righteous in G!d's eyes, as it were, as the kohen gadol, the high priest. We also hold that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come.

But who is righteous in the eyes of God? As I understand Jewish philosophy, righteous are only those who do good for the Jewish community.

Anyway, please explain why God drives several peoples out of the promised land before the Jews move in? Please explain why he forces major plagues onto innocent Egyptian civilians and why he condones the murder of tens of thousands of Babylonian civilians? Please explain why he allowed Abraham to marry his sistes and then pass her TWICE to gentile men without telling them she's his sister? Please tell me why God doesn't seem to make a problem out of Isaac taking his daughter-in-law while thinking she's a prostitute? Why do you even want to worship men with such questionable values in the first place?

 

[Out of the Box]

I do want to suggest, even if this isn't taken to the Judaism forum, that it might be a good idea to create a new thread and I can move the related posts there so this thread isn't driven terribly far off-topic (and if this discussion continues as I believe it will then this whole thread will be driven very far off course.) Any objections? If not, OotB, if you create the thread I'll move the posts.

Like I said, I'm not quite comfortable with making critical remarks on Judaism, Jewish religion or the zionist state in the Judaism section. bananabrain's last remark pretty much illustrates why.

If you're planning to put these words elsewhere, what section of the forum are you thinking of?

 

[Out of the Box]

do you have any serious or indeed specific criticism of our history or religion? let's leave the state out of this for the moment, criticism of israel can be perfectly valid and will only muddy this particular argument. go on, then, let's hear it. give us a statement you'd like to criticise from a jewish text.

For an in depth analysis, I'd like to refer to the writings of Jewish dissidents like Israel Shahak, Israel Shamir, Norman Finkelstein or Mordechai Vanunu.

 

[dauer]

But who is righteous in the eyes of God? As I understand Jewish philosophy, righteous are only those who do good for the Jewish community.

No, not at all. Again I'd suggest you take a look at the link BB posted. Traditionally for gentiles it's understood based on the noahide laws which mostly amount to basic ethical standards. There has been debate about who this does and does not apply to, but as a matter of theology there isn't a concrete answer. We can theorize but only G!d really knows.

Anyway, please explain why God drives several peoples out of the promised land before the Jews move in?

As a liberal (the majority of Jews are liberal) and as someone who rejects the idea of treating sacred texts as literal truth (even from a more Orthodox perspective the plain meaning of the text isn't necessarily the literal meaning), I would see it differently. Ancient peoples frequently attributed successes and losses in battle to the gods. The ancient israelites were no different. Hence the Jewish ahistory, speaking in the language of man, reflects a subjective experience of history in which the gods are involved as does other ancient history. That addresses most of your other questions either directly or indirectly.

Why do you even want to worship men with such questionable values in the first place?

Jews don't worship humans and we quite explicitly accept the fact that the people in the Torah were fully human, that they were not immune from committing wrongdoing. We don't place them up on a pedestal as infallible characters. The Jewish approach to life, by its nature, assumes that people will make mistakes, that it is very human to do so, and that it is part of the process of growth and maturation of the individual.

Like I said, I'm not quite comfortable with making critical remarks on Judaism, Jewish religion or the zionist state in the Judaism section. bananabrain's last remark pretty much illustrates why.

Well I can't say I entirely blame him given your blanket condemnation of Judaism as a racist and supremacist belief system. He'd have responded much differently if you approached with an open mind and questions instead.

If you're planning to put these words elsewhere, what section of the forum are you thinking of?

You could create a thread in Abrahamic Religions or Comparative Religion and I think you'd be fine, though you've got nothing to be 'fraid of on the Judaism board either (and in terms of organization it would make more sense there. The only Jews on this site are myself, BB and now Avi.

 

[bananabrain]

For an in depth analysis, I'd like to refer to the writings of Jewish dissidents like Israel Shahak, Israel Shamir, Norman Finkelstein or Mordechai Vanunu.

so, a proven liar, a disguised racist, a grant-chasing grandstanding hack academic and an apostate who sells government secrets for money? that's what you call "dissidents"? why not ilan pappe and gilad atzmon while you're at it? kangaroo court much?

like i said, i don't really want to discuss israel with you, as i feel that it will confuse an issue on which it is possible to disagree respectfully. however, like dauer says, you're not exactly displaying the characteristics of someone open to discussion - i don't even need to call you an anti-semite. you've identified yourself as someone who, when it comes to judaism (to say nothing of israel) selects only those sources of information which come from people whose hatred, rejection and contempt for jews seethes from every sentence in their writing. it would be odd to say the least if you refused to discuss politics except in terms of lenin, mao and pol pot, or when discussing global warming only picked those scientists that rejected it. a nuanced understanding of a field does not only pick "dissidents" but also mainstream, respectable points of view.

and you have the nerve to think you're not a bigot?

bananabrain

 

[Out of the Box]

No, not at all. Again I'd suggest you take a look at the link BB posted. Traditionally for gentiles it's understood based on the noahide laws which mostly amount to basic ethical standards. There has been debate about who this does and does not apply to, but as a matter of theology there isn't a concrete answer. We can theorize but only G!d really knows.

Still, that doesn't explain the double standard that's obvious when reading the Old Testament or Torah. I will leave out the Talmud here, because I've read too many contradicting claims about it and I'm not familiar enough with its actual content. I'll also leave out secular zionists activist, who seem to uphold a very similar double standard.

As a liberal (the majority of Jews are liberal) and as someone who rejects the idea of treating sacred texts as literal truth (even from a more Orthodox perspective the plain meaning of the text isn't necessarily the literal meaning), I would see it differently.

Would you regard yourself as anti-zionist, pro-zionist or neutral on the issue of zionism?

Ancient peoples frequently attributed successes and losses in battle to the gods. The ancient israelites were no different. Hence the Jewish ahistory, speaking in the language of man, reflects a subjective experience of history in which the gods are involved as does other ancient history. That addresses most of your other questions either directly or indirectly.

It still leaves the reader with the idea that Jews are God's chosen people and that God allows Jews to do all sort of immoral acts without punishment, while being very harsh on those who harm the Jews. Although you'll find similar supremacist perspectives to some degree in other Judeo-Christian beliefs I don't think you'll find it in eg. Buddhism or Advaita-Vedanta.

Jews don't worship humans and we quite explicitly accept the fact that the people in the Torah were fully human, that they were not immune from committing wrongdoing. We don't place them up on a pedestal as infallible characters. The Jewish approach to life, by its nature, assumes that people will make mistakes, that it is very human to do so, and that it is part of the process of growth and maturation of the individual.

Well I can't say I entirely blame him given your blanket condemnation of Judaism as a racist and supremacist belief system. He'd have responded much differently if you approached with an open mind and questions instead.

Maybe my words were poorly chosen, but this is how Judaism is perceived by most gentiles when they actually start reading Judaic texts. This is not exclusive to just religious texts but also many texts from secular Jews.

You could create a thread in Abrahamic Religions or Comparative Religion and I think you'd be fine, though you've got nothing to be 'fraid of on the Judaism board either (and in terms of organization it would make more sense there. The only Jews on this site are myself, BB and now Avi.

Fair enough.