Mumbai

[Tao_Equus]

Well the Islamist zealots have again gone for soft targets like the cowards they have been brainwashed to be. This is of course a huge provocation to India to take a much harder line against Islam and so up the tension in the region. And it is up to the west to wake up to the fact that Islamic extremism is not going to go away. I hope the west supports and encourages India in taking the firmest of hands with the cowards of Islam.

tao

 

[wil]

Well the Islamist zealots have again gone for soft targets like the cowards they have been brainwashed to be. This is of course a huge provocation to India to take a much harder line against Islam and so up the tension in the region. And it is up to the west to wake up to the fact that Islamic extremism is not going to go away. I hope the west supports and encourages India in taking the firmest of hands with the cowards of Islam.

tao

Just to be clear. Are you specifically calling out the zealots, extremists, and cowards that hide under the cover of Islam. The terrorists that Imams and Muslims around the world indicate are not Muslim if they act such as they do?

Or are you painting a wide brush at all of those that attempt to follow the pillars and are not violent? Most are just concerned with feeding their families, keeping a roof over their heads and developing a deeper connection with spirit.

My concern is anyone who is ridiculed, put down, forced into a corner often comes out swinging even though they had no tendency of the same prior. The broad brush increases the violence. What we resist persists.

 

[17th Angel]

Well the Islamist zealots have again gone for soft targets like the cowards they have been brainwashed to be. This is of course a huge provocation to India to take a much harder line against Islam and so up the tension in the region. And it is up to the west to wake up to the fact that Islamic extremism is not going to go away. I hope the west supports and encourages India in taking the firmest of hands with the cowards of Islam.

tao

Are all scots like you?

Relax a lil, go eat some porridge and throw a few logs around... Yes there are some bad apples... But you cannot blame Islam for that.... You have to look at the individual...... You don't see MW over there holding hostages do you?

I just hope this is resolved swiftly with as little violence, death and pain as possible.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Perhaps we should really be focussing in on who is funding the schools where children are brainwashed to hate the Kaffir and the camps where they go to do weapons training. Saudi Arabia, for example, has ploughed $75 billion, (YES BILLION), into over 6000 Wahabi hard line non-muslim hating establishments including Mosques, schools and training camps. Time to blow Saudi Arabia off the map if you ask me, but of course the leaders there are in bed with ours. So it aint gona happen.

tao

 

[farhan]

According to a phone talk between those "terrorists" & an Indian news channel, "Rather than dying like rats, we are here to tell indians how death feels" ..... "We are Indians, India is our homeland, but we wont tolerate the massacre, racism & injustices Indian forces & govt are unleashing upon us" ..... "You guys should have thought about this when you killed thousands in Gujrat & Kashmir"

These people have come from a state that was occupied by Indian Army in 1947. This has got more to do with India's unnatural political boundaries & extreme poverty than Islam. Not only muslims, half of India doesnt want to live with the state. There is a growing trend of Christian & Muslim burnings & Dalit rape all over India (Hinduttva nationalism). Assamese dont want to live with the state (they too blow up a few bombs every month, & they arnt muslim). Naxalites (low cast hindu maoists) allegedly rule 40-55% of India, & have killed thousands in the recent years. Sikhs & the so called Dravidians also have a bad relationship with Indian govt.

West btw are doing their best. Within the last 2 decades, they have butchered millions of muslims. The growing poverty all over the world has also got more to do with western capitalist rampage than anything else. So this is the best that can be done with conventional weapons.

 

[Tao_Equus]

So this is the best that can be done with conventional weapons.

Yet again here you voice your support for the murder of unarmed civilians. I just hope I do not see you trying to deny it again.

tao

 

[farhan]

Yet again here you voice your support for the murder of unarmed civilians. I just hope I do not see you trying to deny it again.

tao

I am only trying to make you realize that US & EU cant kill more Muslims per day than they already are. Give 'em a break, they arnt robots, what more do you want?

 

[17th Angel]

Ugh I really dislike the term "dalit" it brings up many bad thoughts and the concept of no equality and seperation.... But, Taking places hostage... Like I was listening to a bit of it as I passed a radio lol... They took some Jewish buildings hostage.... How does that help stop the things that have happened?

edit..

Update: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7752768.stm

 

[Nick_A]

It appears as though the "Great Beast" has just belched out one of its typical conflicts.

 

[siddhartha]

Thank you, Mr. Tao , for your genuine concern over what happened in Mumbai, India.

As a fallout of the global war against islamic terrorism,we are witnessing a series of islamic terrorist attacks in southern asia, with the numerous suicide bombings by jihadis which has killed thousands of people in Pakistan, along with the brutal cold blooded murder of former lady prime minister Benazir Bhutto.

By virtue of being their neighbors ,unfortunately, we have caught this virus ourselves and are doing our best to get rid of it.

Just recently , the chinese premier himself severely criticized the pakistan premier who went to China for strengthening ties, for exporting Islamic terrorism to Xinjiang in China , through its terrorist camps in Pakistan.

The problem is that the afghan taliban and the pakistanis have been brainwashed by the saudi arabian wahabbi ideology, which has altered their sense of reality.

Due to their muslim/infidel mental block and barrier, they just cannot see eye to eye honestly with non-muslims all over the world.

It is a nonsensical tragedy, which has shed a lot of blood and valuable resources all over the world which should have been channelled and focussed on eradicating real problems or issues like poverty, illiteracy, cancer, aids, deforestation , global warming and others.

Islamic terrorism has long since ceased to be a western problem and is an eastern problem as well due to its presence in India, China, Russia, Thailand, Phillipines, Indonesia,Singapore, Australia and other nations.

The east and west should come together to combat this outdated middle-eastern ideology before it goes out of control and more blood is spilled.

On behalf of all Indians, I wish to apologize to the families of the foreign nationals who were killed or injured by the islamic terrorists in Mumbai,and that they are in our hearts and prayers .

We are truly ashamed of what happened to them , who are our brothers in humanity,and to our own nationals,and we will leave no stone unturned in avenging them , eradicating this menace and making an example of the culprits.

 

[siddhartha]

According to a phone talk between those "terrorists" & an Indian news channel, "Rather than dying like rats, we are here to tell indians how death feels" ..... "We are Indians, India is our homeland, but we wont tolerate the massacre, racism & injustices Indian forces & govt are unleashing upon us" ..... "You guys should have thought about this when you killed thousands in Gujrat & Kashmir".

They seem to be well-indoctrinated by their pakistani masters on what to say and do.

And typical pakistani propaganda.

If they just spend a quarter of their time and energy spent in conjuring these propaganda( against other countries and religions which they wish to malign ) into setting their society right and reeducating the islamic society on the perils of jihadism, they would not be in the hellhole they are in right now.

These people have come from a state that was occupied by Indian Army in 1947. This has got more to do with India's unnatural political boundaries & extreme poverty than Islam.

Most of the terrorists arrested and shot dead have been identified to be pakistanis through their own confessions.

India is a rising economic power, and poverty is disappearing by leaps and bounds in India.

This has more to do with islamic society's intolerance of anyone different from them.

Assamese dont want to live with the state (they too blow up a few bombs every month, & they arnt muslim).

The terrorist bomb blasts in assam, which occured for the first time last month, has been identified as being that of the islamic terrorist organisation huji.

Naxalites (low cast hindu maoists) allegedly rule 40-55% of India, & have killed thousands in the recent years.

Naxalites belong to all religions and castes, and to say that they are ruling 40-55% is preposterous.

They are only active in chattisgarh and adjoining parts, and due to stiff action by security forces against them , their movement has now been crippled to a large extent, and many of them have surrendered and returned back to the mainstream.

Sikhs & the so called Dravidians also have a bad relationship with Indian govt.

The ruling head of India is a Sikh. And the so-called dravidian parties of the south are sharing power at the centre and are themselves ruling the country. They are the government.

West btw are doing their best. Within the last 2 decades, they have butchered millions of muslims. The growing poverty all over the world has also got more to do with western capitalist rampage than anything else. So this is the best that can be done with conventional weapons.

And where were your concern when islamic extremists were butchering millions of non-muslims all over the world.

Millions of muslims themselves were killed by islamic extremists in shia-sunni-ahmediya-mohajir riots, and also among wars among themselves.

Just in the liberation of Bangladesh, millions of innocent muslims and hindus in Bangladesh were killed by the pakistanis, which is one of the greatest genocides of the 20th century, and which was conveniently overlooked by their ally , the nixon administration in the U.S.( incidentally, Richard Nixon is also known for his corrupt character and is also the only american president to have resigned from office.)

Poverty is decreasing all over the world, rather than increasing,as seen by the rising economic powers like China,India who in themselves comprise nearly half of humanity, and the recession has only just put brakes on it , and which can be controlled with intelligent measures .

As I stated before , islamic terrorism in itself, has shed a lot of blood and valuable resources all over the world which could have been channelled and focussed on eradicating real problems like poverty, illiteracy, cancer, aids, deforestation , global warming and others.

 

[17th Angel]

Thank you, Mr. Tao , for your genuine concern over what happened in Mumbai, India.

If I am wrong then my bad.... But, I feel this was more a golden opportunity for Tao to have yet another dig at Islam

 

[Tao_Equus]

On behalf of all Indians, I wish to apologize to the families of the foreign nationals who were killed or injured by the islamic terrorists in Mumbai,and that they are in our hearts and prayers .

We are truly ashamed of what happened to them , who are our brothers in humanity,and to our own nationals,and we will leave no stone unturned in avenging them , eradicating this menace and making an example of the culprits.

As the dust settles from this outrageous act of cowardice the Indian people have had nothing but praise and thanks from those caught up in this atrocity. Already the stories of many selfless acts of heroism carried out by ordinary Indians issue from the lips of so many caught up in this. And in my experience of the Hindu peoples of India it comes as no surprise, for a more selfless,genuinely warm and loving people I have never met. India has no apology to make for this terrible act. If anyone has an apology and the obligation of reparations it is the US and UK governments that have have supported the fascist Islamic cause of this cancer, Saudi Arabia. Without the 10s of billions of dollars that the Saudi state pumps into fostering hate against everything but the narrow Wahhabi doctrine of violent intolerance I doubt this would ever have happened. There is a conspiracy of of ignorance that pervades western society over who makes all this murder possible. It is our leaders themselves in their continued support of the fascist dictatorship of the Saudi state. There is an easy target to decimate the funding and support from the early indoctrination of children, right up to the weapons and bomb making training camps. Saudi Arabia has to be held accountable and stopped. Permanently.

tao

 

[Tao_Equus]

If I am wrong then my bad.... But, I feel this was more a golden opportunity for Tao to have yet another dig at Islam

Islam digs its own dark hole, not me.

tao

 

[c0de]

Guys... this game is much bigger then India or Pakistan,
or the US and the Saudis... Lets examine the issue shall we?

(With an appropriate soundtrack of course)
Muse - Map of the Problematique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtmV5qiNRvY





(NOTE: You will not find the following chart on CNN)






INCIDENT >-------------------------> CAUSE


Mumbai Blasts >-------------------> "Islamic" extremists
"Islamic" Extremists >--------------> "Wahabis in Saudi Arabia"
Wahabis in S.A. >-----------------> The Saudi Royal Familly
Saudi Royal Family >---------------> The Sykes-Picot Agreement
Sykes-Picot >---------------------> WWI
WWI >----------------------------> The Alliance System
The Alliance System >-------------> Economic Imperialism
Economic Imperialism >-------------> Materialism



For those who have not read the following, please
go to amazon.com and pick these up:

A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire
and the Creation of the Modern Middle East. by David Frompkin

A Brutal Friendship: The West and the Arab Elite. by Said K. Aburish.

There are a lot of others, but mostly they all just give you the basics
Once you have the essentials... I have one more recommendation ...
for those that are really prepared to stare into the abyss, read the following.
(If it doesn't change your perspective, let me know and I will personally
refund your money that you spent on the book, even the shipping and handling.)

The Pentagon of Power - The Myth of the Machine, Volume Two
by Lewis Mumford.

 

[Tao_Equus]

c0de,

Whilst I appreciate your sincerity of belief in bringing this all down to materialism I think it is rather missing the point. Materialism is a vague notion, not even a widely accepted formalised ideology. What this really boils down to, as ever, is the insatiable lust for power and wealth of very few individuals. It is not anything to do with such vacuous concepts as materialism. The ultimate blame is firmly attached to a very few people who run the oil companies and weapons making corporations of this world and who control our political systems with a ruthless disregard for the common man.It is these people who foment the religious extremes that are used to justify the production of weapons bought with our taxes. They screw us every which way and materialism has nothing to do with it. While we are fighting each other they are left alone in their towers.

tao

 

[c0de]

@ Tao

c0de,

Whilst I appreciate your sincerity of belief in bringing this all down to materialism I think it is rather missing the point. Materialism is a vague notion, not even a widely accepted formalised ideology. What this really boils down to, as ever, is the insatiable lust for power and wealth of very few individuals. It is not anything to do with such vacuous concepts as materialism. The ultimate blame is firmly attached to a very few people who run the oil companies and weapons making corporations of this world and who control our political systems with a ruthless disregard for the common man.

tao

Even as little as a year ago I might have agreed with you Tao. The reason I picked materialism is precisely because it is a vague notion. Because only such an imprecise concept can encompass the real problem: Society. That is where the real problem lies. I did not develop this idea overnight, it was a long and terrifying road. I kept going back and forth for a while, but then I read that book, written I think in the 70s... and it finally tipped the scales. (follow the link at the end of the post)

The fact is that we can not blame the leaders, because they are only leading by giving the people what they want. It is only when I realized that the people themselves share the same values as the leaders, that I realized that the this is not the type of snake whose head can be cut off and the problem solved... it will just grow a new one.

I just wrote an essay on weekend on the "revolutionary" year of 1968. I came across the book which you might know of already, The One Dimensional Man, by Herbert Marcuse... the "Marxist" who they say was philosophically responsible for the whole 60s movement. What I found really interesting is that his book itself predicted the failure of any such revolutionary effort in post-industrial society, in 1964, four years before the riots actually happened! His main thesis is that there is no more "proletariat". That the proletariat Marx raved about, was now fully part of the system, and thus is no longer revolutionary.

Now many question whether Marcuse can even be considered a Marxist. Because such a hypothesis actually stands against the foundation of marxist Dialectical Materialism... or at least the model proposed by Marx and Engels.... In this new reality, the synthesis has already happened, without any struggle... The third world, just wants to become the first world... the have-nots, just want to have more.... There really is no intention by any side to "overthrow" the system anymore. I don't recommend this book however, (unless you really like philosophy) because it really takes like 200 pages to get across this simple point.

I will state its thesis here in a concise form:

Lets say that we displace the the oil companies and the elites as you say Tao. What will happen? You think that will really do anything? It can't... its impossible to fix the situation like that anymore. Because the ones who are against the elites are also part of the same system. Because they share the same values.... Socialism... Capitalism... whatever, the market today is global. The End of History, in my opinion, was punctuated at the signing of the Bretton Woods Accords, at the end of WWII. That was the culmination of 5 centuries of efforts by the merchants who began developing this system in the middle ages, approximately the 16th century if not earlier. Everything now, is just a rolling forward of their great utilitarian prophecy... But if you really wanna get historical, this current breed of merchants are just the latest expression of an elite which has been present since the beginning of human society. And for this, I really recommend the book by Mumford. The second volume is sufficient, but if you wanna examine the earliest human civilizations, then get the first volume as well.

You know... it was only recently that I realized that the Quran had been saying the
same thing all along... but that is a different discussion entirely...

Just remember one thing, the "elite" are no different from the "masses"...
The elite have always come from the masses... have they not?
Its just the way it works. It never changes.
The masses want to become the elite,
and the elite want to stay as the elite...

Some think this will go on forever....
I give it another 5 centuries.
Before the End.

Amazon.com: Pentagon Of Power: The Myth Of The Machine, Vol. II: Lewis Mumford: Books.

 

[Nick_A]

Hi cOde

Just remember one thing, the "elite" are no different from the "masses"...
The elite have always come from the masses... have they not?
Its just the way it works. It never changes.
The masses want to become the elite,
and the elite want to stay as the elite...

The whole process is just the "Great Beast" changing form in response to earthly and cosmic influences. So to expect change is like asking a tiger to change its stripes. It cannot happen.

The trouble with the teachings of the Quran and the Bible is that they've become adopted by the Beast so lose their potency for any meaningful societal change but rather further the desires of the Beast.

Your essay sounds interesting. You may appreciate the following article. It directly confronts society as an idol which is the basis of a lot of Interfaith so would bomb out here. But if you are open about this, it explains a great deal. Simone goes beyond materialism and introduces "prestige." It becomes easy to see how patriotism can satisfy this need and use sacred text to further this primary need of the "Great beast."

Jim Grote: Prestige: Simone Weil's Theory of Social Force

In order to understand Weil's analysis of social force, we will stress an anatomy rather than a physiology of prestige. Prestige could be examined sociologically by describing the patterns within its operations. For example, weakness is always despised and strength always praised or people always exercise the full amount of power at their disposal.(18) But if the operations of prestige are to make sense, a prior justification for those operations must be presented. At first glance it is easier to understand the social mechanism in terms of a drive for tangible goods (Marx) or bodily satisfaction (Freud) rather than as a drive for prestige. In order to clarify the nature of prestige it is helpful to classify the psychological/spiritual needs that prestige fulfills.
Prestige is the appearance of being in control. The central plot of every cop show on television glorifies the hero who never loses control, even in the most adverse circumstances. Just revenge is always his or hers by the end of the show. The praise of control is the soul's automatic reflex to the threat of affliction. Affliction is the absence of control. And, ultimately all human beings succumb to natural forces beyond their control.

To acknowledge the reality of affliction means saying to oneself: I may lose at any moment, through the play of circumstances over which I have no control, anything whatsoever that I possess, including those things which are so intimately mine that I consider them as being myself. There is nothing that I might not lose. (19)
​

Affliction is not so much physical pain as this lack of control. The intense pain that an athlete endures in training is not an affliction, because the athlete is in control. In contrast, an individual strapped to a torturer's chair experiences intense affliction before the torturer ever touches his or her body.

To classify this need for control further, we can subdivide it into the need to receive honor from others and the need to give honor to others. These two needs are the fuel of the social mechanism. They are the dual sides of the master-slave relationship. The master needs recognition, and the slave needs security. These two needs can be further sub-divided into their respective micro or psychological dimensions and their macro or sociological dimensions. The need for honor might be subclassified into the need for personal identity and the need for political power; the need to honor into the need for heros/idols and the need for social stability. The first two needs (the "master" needs) are distinguished by Weil in a fragment from Gravity and Grace:

We read, but also we are read by other. Interferences in these readings. Forcing someone to read himself as we read him (slavery). Forcing others to read us as we read ourselves (conquest). A mechanical process. More often than not a dialogue between deaf people .... Every being cries out to be read differently. (20)
​

 

[c0de]

@ Nick

The trouble with the teachings of the Quran and the Bible is that they've become adopted by the Beast so lose their potency for any meaningful societal change but rather further the desires of the Beast.

Your thesis invalidates itself Nick.
The beast can not "adopt" anything.

You have not studied the Quran, yet
you comment on it. But I will not repeat
your mistake by commenting on Weil.

The teachings of the Quran have not
'lost their potency'. It's your understanding
of the beast, actually, which I find lacking.

If Simone Weil is your answer to everything,
then so be it. I already have my own guide.

 

[Tao_Equus]

c0de,

I agree with much of your analysis. It is from this infernal cycle that I draw my antipathy for both religion and current political models, two sides of the same coin. I am a utopian. I believe freed from the indoctrination of religion and, (something instilled with even less questioning dissent), economics mankind can rise above the murky history that holds us like quicksand. It is a tiny minority I belong to. One that dares to have a vision where the economics of limiting supply are supplanted by production according to need, free from any financial transaction. Everybody, almost, thinks we are greedy. I think that a lie. I think it is taught not innate behaviour. Our system by limiting supply breeds envy and greed. If supply matched everybody's desire then this envy and greed would have no place in our psyches. Despite all the rhetoric of the environmental movement this world has all the resources, if fully and sustainably used - not exploited, to give us all a lifestyle only the very rich currently enjoy. We need a paradigm shift in our thinking to a new and utopian future, not a recurring nightmare of revelations like torment for imagined sins. Religions and politicians conspire knowingly or not into limiting our ambition to progress. If we have a future it will be dreamers like me who show the way. Those that keep saying we cannot and hark back to holy book definitions of our imagined sin are but a part of the problem. They will either die out, or drag us all to our deaths.

tao