Rebirth/Reincarnation

Discussion in 'Eastern Religions and Philosophies' started by Nick the Pilot, Dec 6, 2008.

  1. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Nick A,

    You asked,

    Yes, I believe that everything is a combination of spirit and matter. Do you believe in aether?

    --> I believe in a whole lot more than just spirit, matter, and aether. I believe in the astral plane. I believe there is something just above that called the mental plane. (The idea is, feelings and emotions happen on the astral plane, thoughts happen on the mental plane.) I also believe there are many 'planes of existence' above these two planes.

    "I believe that animal life including the physical for is already evolved to perform its function. Its evolution is complete for the purpose it serves."

    --> That is an interesting way to look at it. I see today's animal-souls as the stuff from which the human souls of the next 'Creation Story' will be built from. So, I do not see today's animals as being finished with evolution at all.

    "...is it a compassionate act to provide alcohol for an alcoholic?"

    --> No. I have two responses.

    (1) Buddha taught the middle way. There is such as thing as being too good. When we try to be too good, we are not practicing the middle way.

    (2) Giving alcohol to an alcoholic out of compassion is called being codependent, not being compassionate. A great psychic once told me, sometimes the most compassionate thing we can do is remain silent and not do anything.

    "People join cults from this motive which initiates with escapism. ...the essence desire for transcendence are completely different."

    --> I agree. Escapism is the exact opposite of becoming one with the universe.
     
  2. Nick_A

    Nick_A Interfaith Forums

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    Hi Nick

    We apparently agree as far as levels of reality. I would probably see it differently since for me levels of reality are associated with Pythagoras law of octaves.

    The purpose of organic life on earth is to transform substances as it continually eats itself in one way or another. All forms of this life, whether vegetable or animal, is a unique living machine that specializes in a particular quality of energy.

    Man has within him all these specializations. As such its evolution is complete as far as a creature tied to the earth and can move on to conscious evolution with help from above.

    I remember reading an article where the author explained that the damage we do to the rain forests and coral reefs doesn't damage the earth but instead damages us.

    The finer grades of energy are largely produced by the exotic colorful expressions of organic life that inhabit these domains. There is not that much of these high quality energies and nature needs them for her purposes. If their sources are continually damaged by us, nature is compelled to extract them from our being for her purposes. But it is exactly these finer energies and their materiality that serve as nourishment for the awakening spiritual parts of our being. Consequently, instead of evolving, there is a good chance we will be devolving further into materialism for the sake of serving the earth's purposes.

    Lacking the ability for sustained attention, I would agree. Yet for those like Simone, attention is an expression of compassion. Though often appearinag as nothing, it is actually giving everything.


    "Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity." Simone Weil


    What does it mean to be "one with the universe?"
     
  3. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Nick A,

    You said,

    "The purpose of organic life on earth is to transform substances as it continually eats itself in one way or another."

    --> I see it a little differently. I think that the purpose of organic life is to give spirit a vehicle to use to raise its spirituality to a higher level. Spirit rises to a higer level as a result of its ensouling matter, whether it ensouls human, animal, vegetable, or mineral form. Other than this, I do not see any purpose for physical life.

    "What does it mean to be "one with the universe?"

    --> To me, the real meaning of Genesis is that we have been artifically separated from the rest of the universe, in order to mold our individualities. Once our individualities have been sufficiently molded, the need for such separatedness will no longer exist, and will be removed.

    When that happens, we will become one with the universe. Right now, I cannot really understand what it means for you to be you, and you cannot really understand what it means for me to be me. In Nirvana, all of that changes. I will be able to experience every facet of your existence with a single thought, and you will gain the same ability too.

    Nirvana has been described as being everywhere at once.

    “Any description of Nirvana which we may attempt must sound strange. No words that we can use can give even the least idea of such an experience as that, for all with which our minds are acquainted has long ago disappeared before that level is attained.... The man feels as if he were everywhere, but could focus anywhere within himself, and wherever for a moment the outpouring of force diminishes, that is for him a body.” (The Masters and the Path, p. 200)
     
  4. Nick_A

    Nick_A Interfaith Forums

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    You say that you don't see any other purpose for physical life while I see its purpose as sustaining the machine of creation itself through the process of involution. With this in mind do you believe creation has an essential purpose or is it an accident?

    Do you believe the universe is here to serve man or is man here to serve the universe? You seem to be saying that this separation occurred for the sake of man's evolution. Is it possible that our evolution is secondary to the initial purpose of repairing the machine?
     
  5. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Nick A,

    You said that the purpose of physical life is to sustain the machine of creation itself through the process of involution. This does not take into account the period between universes, when there is no physical matter (and no involution). The way I see it, physical matter is merely a temporary manifestation.

    "...do you believe creation has an essential purpose or is it an accident?"

    --> Creation is no accident. But you are also asking why Creation happens in the first place. No one knows. We finite beings cannot fathom the 'motivations' of the infinite.

    "Do you believe the universe is here to serve man or is man here to serve the universe?"

    --> Neither. Humans are pieces of the universe that got separated off. Once humans remerge with the universe, it will not be a matter of one serving the other.

    But service is our nature. The question is, who serves who? Those humans who came in the previous 'Creation Story' are presently serving us. When we no longer need to be humans, we will move up to the next level, where our job will be to serve the next set of humans from the next 'Creation Story' coming down the road behind us. It is an endless parade of groups of beings helping the next group of beings coming in behind them. (It is unfortunate the Bible only discusses this universe, and does not discuss the seemlingly endless parade of universes.)

    "Is it possible that our evolution is secondary to the initial purpose of repairing the machine?"

    --> The machine is not broken. There is nothing to fix. The world is a horrible place, but that is only because humanity has been given free choice. The choice to work hard and make it up to the next level (above the human level) must be made freely by each one of us. It cannot be any other way. Unfortunately, as we wait for everyone to make such a decision on their own, we have to sit and watch as these people act selfishly in the meantime. Being in a world of suffering is horrible, but the system does not work any other way.
     
  6. Nick_A

    Nick_A Interfaith Forums

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    Hi Nick

    But if creation is as I believe a necessity in order to sustain the volume of infinite potentials, then regardless of the division of universes, material existence cannot be a temporary manifestation but part of a continuum expressed through densities of materiality where one level of reality exists within another. It is the "breath of Brahma" where the out breath is involution and the in breath is evolution.

    Within the great scale of involution and evolution, there exist many smaller scales which we know as existence.

    We agree in that evolved or conscious man is not something we can know because we lack consciousness. We differ in that I believe that it is important to "know thyself" and what keeps humanity including ourselves contemplating a dream. I'm not against pondering since I believe it largely an abandoned necessity but also know without self knowledge, it easily turns into the enjoyment of dreams. I know since I'm very tempted in this way.

    I believe in the concept of Jacob's Staircase that connects levels of reality. We disagree in that I believe that only a small minority will ever be on it.

    Most IMO misunderstand the Bible as being a historical text. I believe it to be a psychological text. its purpose is in opening the mind as an awakening influence rather than creating answers.

    Science speculates on multi universes. I know of this as the sixth dimension from old knowledge. The Bible cannot be expected to get into these things since understanding comes from pondering the indications given.

    If the Bible got into these details the "experts" would get a hold of it and secularize it into who knows what and do more harm than good.


    A part was broken as a result of the genesis of our moon. years ago if one had mentioned that the moon was artificially created by a collision, the men in the white coats would have taken him away. Now it is becoming standard theory.


    SPACE.com -- Earth Hit by Neighbor in Making of Moon


    It would be impossible to get into this here and without seeing this in the context of levels of reality it is almost impossible to see the sense of it, but I believe that the energies and materiality of organic life and its cycles of life and death are a stabilizing influence on the orbital relationship between the earth and moon. This is why organic life is so rare in the universe since it is seldom necessary. The conscious universe doesn't require it.

    Man will always either serve the earth's mechanical needs or participate in cosmic conscious purpose. Do we strive to rule in hell or serve in heaven? This is our choice when we acquire the necessary self knowledge to make an educated choice and to actualize it..
     
  7. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Nick A,

    Since you are interested in the inherent nature of the separateness of human beings, I thought I would share with you how it originally happend.

    Genesis says in verses 2 and 3,

    "...darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."

    Bible.com

    Let me explain what happened. As we all know, the Trinity consists of three principles, two of which I call Father and Mother. (I call the second principle of the Trinity Mother, not Son. In my belief system, the Son is the third principle.)

    Father was the light, and Mother was the water of Genesis 1:2. (Both the M of Mother and W of Water come from the same wiggly Egyptian hieroglyphic, because they are the same thing.) Light shone upon the water. In the water were countless little 'waves.' The light 'reflected' off the countless 'waves,' creating countless little sparks of light. We are those tiny sparks.

    It was through this process that we were individualized. At the end of our 'Creation Story.' we will remerge with Mother.

    I find it fascinating that Genesis mentions the light and the water, but not the sparks of light (us) upon the waves. Oh well, two out of three ain't bad.
     
  8. Nick_A

    Nick_A Interfaith Forums

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    We agree at the beginning. The Father is Yang and the Mother is Yin as the water principle. The movement into the depths of Yin is involution. So far so good. I can even agree that these reflections could mean "sons of God and the cosmological level of evolved Man.

    However, for us as fallen man asleep in Plato's cave, the light has gone out and our destiny without the awakening influence from above is to further involve into the fragmentation of the Mother and further from consciousness and the Father. So while most will merge with the Mother, I hope there will be enough human evolution to acquire the inner light noticed from above that can be helped in the direction of their evolution closer to the light of the Father.

    The son as the third principle of the Trinity is not that odd if you consider the head as the active or Yang principle and the body as the Yin or passive principle. the Son is the heart which connects them. In Christianity the purpose of the Christ is to heal and unify the fragmented heart.
     
  9. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Nick A,

    You said,

    "In Christianity the purpose of the Christ is to heal and unify the fragmented heart."

    --> That is an interesting way of looking at it. In my belief system, the Son is our physical universe. The purpose of the Son (our universe) is to provide spirit with physical bodies to manifest in, for the purpose of having concrete experiences. Physical bodies provide spirit with opportunities to learn things that cannot be learned in any other way.
     
  10. Nick_A

    Nick_A Interfaith Forums

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    Nick, this is very similar to my beliefs. The universe is lawful fractions of wholeness. To retain the quality of wholeness, lawful fractions or "potentials of wholeness must be manifested. In this way no-thing differs from nothing since nothing is the absence of potential and no-thing includes all potential. They create the boundaries of the universe.

    The Son within the Holy Trinity contains every-thing unmanifested while the Father is pure conscious wholeness.

    The division of ONE into THREE is the beginning of universal involution or creation. The Son or sun within the universe is the midpoint. It simultaneously reflects the Father and is Yin in relation to it, while serves in directing the creative forces further into creation or a lower level of Yin and is Yang in relation to it. The Holy Spirit still unites the Son with the Father by receiving from above and unites with levels of reality further down in creation as Yang and gives to the below.

    To receive from above so as to give to below requires the heart as it should be.

    Man is in the image so has the same function. But the fractured heart and the dominance of imagination replacing the "attention of the heart" makes us unable to receive from above and give to below making "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" impossible. Instead of serving this conscious connective function, we are limited to serving the same function as the rest of organic life on earth which only serves the earth through the mechanical transformation of substances.

    The Christ influence provides the Spirit that awakens the heart to the qualitiative experience of the universe rather than our usual experience of everything on one plane of existence and in this way aids are awakening to our "being" potential.
     
  11. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Nick A,

    You said,

    "...this is very similar to my beliefs."

    --> I am glad to hear that. I agree that there are similarities between our two belief systems.

    "...no-thing includes all potential."

    --> I believe something similar.

    "The Son within the Holy Trinity contains every-thing unmanifested while the Father is pure conscious wholeness."

    --> This, too, is similar to my belief system. But I would say the Son is (not contains) everything unmanifested as well as manifested. I draw a distinction between Father and Son, in that the Son is said to be differentiated, while the Father is undifferentiated.

    "The division of ONE into THREE is the beginning of universal involution or creation."

    --> I agree.

    "The Son or sun within the universe is the midpoint."

    --> Are you talking about our sun, or the central sun of the universe?

    "It simultaneously reflects the Father and is Yin in relation to it, while serves in directing the creative forces further into creation...."

    --> I agree.

    "The Holy Spirit still unites the Son with the Father by receiving from above and unites with levels of reality further down in creation as Yang and gives to the below."

    --> Now you are switching terminology on me. Is Mother the Holy Spirit?

    "Man is in the image so has the same function."

    --> When we say that man was created in the image of gods (not in the image of a single God, Genesis says it was a group of gods), I take a whole different interpretation. It is said that seven minor deities (the group of deities of Genesis 1:27) created humanity. It is said they had astral bodies, and they broke off parts of their astral bodies to give us our astral bodies. I like this interpretation, because it means we were literally created (or more like detached from) those deities, just like Genesis says. Since our astral bodies came directly from such a semi-divine source, we truly are constructed from the gods (just like Genesis says), and we resemble them exactly (but at a much lower level of consciousness).

    "...the fractured heart..."

    --> I'm sorry, but the idea of a fractured heart does not fit into my belief system. To me, it is more like consciousness without maturity or experience. (That is why we are here in the physical world, to gain concrete experiences that cannot be gained any other way.)

    "The Christ influence provides the Spirit that awakens the heart..."

    --> I find it fascinatng that you correlate the Son with emotions and other apsects of the astral plane. I see the Son as being at a much higher level than the astral (emotional) plane.
     
  12. Nick_A

    Nick_A Interfaith Forums

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    Hi Nick

    --> Are you talking about our sun, or the central sun of the universe?

    No, I believe our sun is on the same level of reality as all the other suns in our universe. It stands in the same relation to our Milky Way as a tree does to a forest. Trees have their own unique reality but exist as ONE at the level of the forest. the forest tree relationship exists within one cosmos while suns and galaxies are different cosmoses.

    Now you are switching terminology on me. Is Mother the Holy Spirit?

    No, the Holy spirit connects the Yin Yang principles at one level of reality through actualizing a "middle." This "middle becomes yin for a higher yang or yang for a lower yin. Existence for us is the experience of middles as they function as yin.


    I believe that Man is a microcosm and as such has everything with his being that exists in the great external universe only smaller in scale. The trouble is that as we are, we are not this man.

    I agree with you that man on earth is not a creation of God the Father but from qualities of consciousness much lower in creation referred to as LORD God. This is why for man on earth to experience the God/Man connection, he must evolve to become Man

    Where consciousness sees things as they are, the heart differentiates objective quality. It allows us the experience the connection referred to by: "As above, so below." It is that part of us that allows us to be drawn to the "good." The fragmented heart of man on earth has lost this sensitivity to objective quality.

    The Son is providing the energy of the spirit that doesn't arise from the earth to open our psych. The Son is not an astral being but is able to give the energy of the Holy spirit to man for awakening.

    Do you think that the apostles dropped everything to follow Jesus because of a speech? No, they experienced awakening from the qualities of Jesus' energies and wanted to become their potential.
     
  13. Ramaraksha

    Ramaraksha Interfaith Forums

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    I have always been uncomfortable with God running Hell; a torture chamber is unbecoming of God. Recently there was this video of this young woman in the swat area of Pakistan controlled by the Taliban, being held down and mercilessly whipped, as she cried out in pain. Do we really think God would be so merciless and cruel?

    Besides the laws of Karma & Rebirth seem to clash with the concept of Hell. If we are punished in hell, then how can we suffer the consequences of karma from a previous birth? Doesn’t that mean we suffer twice for the same offense? If hell is the violent way of imparting a lesson then Karma is the non-violent way.

    Let’s take an example: A kid continues to misbehave in a store in spite of the admonishments of his father. While running around the store the kid breaks a product. What is the father to do? Simply forgiving the kid will achieve nothing but then is beating him the right answer? It did used to happen a lot in the olden days – parents used to use a leather belt or a cane to discipline their children. Such cruel & abusive methods must have left serious emotional scars on the child. Either way the child does not learn to take responsibility for his actions.

    Thankfully nowadays use of such physical violence against innocent children has declined. Today’s parents are encouraged to talk to their kids and use softer methods to teach the right values to their children. The right way is to either withhold the kid’s allowance towards the cost of the product or make him do chores around the house to pay for the cost of the product. The child learns to take responsibility for his actions, learns the cost of his misbehavior and the right lessons are imparted.

    Karma & Rebirth is the such Non-Violent way. One is not simply forgiven or given a beating, but is asked to take responsibility for the acts of a prior life, and is being a second chance to make things right. Come back in a second life and try to lessen the suffering of those whom you might have wronged.

    Another example: You are driving a car at night in a dense fog and you can barely see anything. Suddenly you hear a bump as if you had hit something. Do you continue to go forward, ignoring that you might have hit someone, and leave the forgiveness or punishment to God? Or do you stop the car, attend to the person whom you might have injured, take him to a hospital & pay the cost of his hospital care? The latter is about taking responsibility for our actions and doing the right thing. This is what Karma & Rebirth allows one to do.

    Besides with Rebirth, one is given the greatest Gift of all – the Gift of Life, over and over again! Why be limited to just one life when one can receive the greatest Gift over and over again?

    So, once and for all, let’s put away the concept of Hell, a brutal, violent, abusive place unworthy of God.
     

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