Satan accuses us before God

BenW

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Ben, the Messiah as the second Adam regains the authority that was lost by Adam during the human fall. Right

The Messiah (Jesus) can accuse Satan in front of God. Jesus was victorious over Satan. Jesus was, is, and will be victorious but does the Bible say that He accuses Satan?

God can remove Satan from the position he has usurped for so long because God is on the side of his children (mankind) Well not all mankind ~ John 8:44

During the process of the human fall A&E disobeyed God's words and choose to believe Lucifer's words instead. By doing so they volunteerely put Lucifer in a higher position and rejected God.

We are in a midway position between God and Satan Ehh.. The Bible says that we are seated with Christ at the right hand of the father. ~ Ephesians 2:6

Man has to return to God and regain his position by separating himself from Satan. God cannot do that for us. The Messiah who is not connected to the fall is the one putting Satan back in his place. He can accuse Satan of his sins. Yes, we must repent of sin and separate ourselves from satan but it is Christ that reunites us with the Father. We just make the choice to submit to Him.

Because of our sins, Satan has a case against us. He can accuse us back and tell God that we are not in a position to judge him. Look what we did.
~1 John 2:1 [ Christ Our Advocate ] My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Sorry, it is a long explanation for just a few words

Praise God!
 

soleil10

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Jesus was, is, and will be victorious but does the Bible say that He accuses Satan
What I meant is that, he is in a position to accuse Satan in front of God and Satan has nothing to accuse Jesus with.

Well not all mankind ~ John 8:44
We are all sinners. Since Jesus won over Satan and take responsibility for us in front of God, God can take the side of mankind. I am speaking in general term. Can you imagine a movie about this ?

Ehh.. The Bible says that we are seated with Christ at the right hand of the father. ~ Ephesians 2:6
Because of our fallen nature, we are in a midway position between God and Satan. Sometimes we do God's will sometimes, we do satan's will. I am talking of here on earth.
 

BenW

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The Bible says that we are made righteous through Christ. God sees us through Christ's redemptive work of dying on the cross for our sins.
Even though I might not always be following my spirit I have still been made a new creation in Christ. That means old things have been passed away. We, the believer, are NOW seated with Christ in heavenly places.
~ Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
 

Dream

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This remains an interesting topic. It always is, every time; and I'm having a difficult time with not changing the topic but so far I've been very well behaved. I think this comment is within topic: I notice that the verse BenW quoted about the 'accuser' might be alluding to the court mentioned in Daniel 7, since accusations take place in court. A lot of people say Revelation uses a lot of symbols from Daniel. Maybe the reference in Revelation requires Daniel 7 to fully appreciate its meaning? This is a cryptic interpretation as Daniel 7 does not use the word 'Accuse', but may be the 'War' the 'Boastful Horn' makes upon the Saints is an accusation, since that war is resolved by the sitting of a court? So I am just suggesting it could be a reference to Daniel 7.
 

mee

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The Accuser
Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

The issue of whether or not there is a literal Hell where people and spirits will perish for all eternity is a whole other thread.




now this is one of my most favourite verses in the bible , and it is very true indeed that when satan and his angelic followers where thrown out of heaven , they are now all the more out to be in opposition to anyone on earth who upholds GODS HEAVENLY KINGDOM.


YES, satan and his followers have since 1914 been cast out of heaven , they are in opposition to Gods purpose ,and they are not wanted any longer in heaven .


so down to the earth they have been cast , that is why since 1914 things have got worse and worse down here on the earth , but no worries, he only has a short period of time and soon he will be put out of the way for a 1000 years , then GODS HEAVENLY KINGDOM Can rule without any opposition at all .



but make no mistake about it,..... NOW .....anyone who upholds Gods heavenly kingdom goverment on the earth will have opposition DANIEL 2;44


AND YES YOU HAVE GUESSED IT :) it is only JEHOVAHS WITNESSES who are upholding gods heavenly kingdom , that is why there is much opposition to Gods heavenly kingdom goverment .


yes Gods heavenly kingdom goverment was born and set up in 1914 according to bible prophecy and chronology Daniel 2;44


And now it is well established ,and JEHOVAH (the ancient of days)has GIVEN Jesus
RULERSHIP DIGNITY AND POWER in that heavenly kingdom
DANIEL 7;13-14


And because Jesus has great aurthority he has cast that old rebel satan and all who follow him , OUT OF HEAVEN . revelation 12;9


And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”




revelation 12;7-12



Make no mistake about it , its all happening in this time of the end



And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.revelation 12;17















SATAN DOES NOT LIKE IT its all happening in this time of the end
 

Azure24

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So God is in control of everything that went wrong and one day may be in a miilion year, That's great. Actually it was His plan that we all suffer, people are killed, miserable, sick and dying, hungry, selfish and he is control of all of it.

And yet you say soleil. And yet...

"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

And yet YOU believe God never wanted it this way...But is powerless to stop it?

In just one night God smashed the presumed free will of all the disciples. They lost confidence in their flesh after that night. James later shows us just how well he learned this lesson of so-called free self determinism:

"Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that" (James 4:13-15).

Free will? Where?

He is going to snap his fingers and everything will be perfect.

"...For who has resisted His will?" (Rom. 9:19).

Do us a favour, and do not answer this question...It is a rhetorical question...

But what is our Father's WILL? You probably didn't ask. But I'll answer anyway...

"... Our Saviour, God, Who WILLS [this is the very "will" of The Almighty Creator God] that ALL mankind be saved and come to a realization of the truth" (Ezek. 37)


...Man put satan in charge.

I see why you never quote the Scriptures...

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).

Who was in charge here? Who gave Satan the order to "eat dust"? Is God a man?

Man is the "dust of the earth" upon which Satan dines: "The first man [Adam] is of the earth, earthy [dust]…" (I Cor. 15:47). Man IS ‘dust.’

"…for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).

Man has to regain his position before the fall and satan too.

Position? What position? The position to...

"…oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]" (II Thes. 2:4)?

Look at the parabol of the prodigal son. He had to come back to his father. He had free will. He left but had to come back for his father who forgived him.

I've looked at the parable (thousands of times) and it PROVES man has NO free will. I have told even you (soleil) that our decisions have nothing to do with free will...I ask YOU to read again and at WHY he chose to come back to his Father. Even YOU said and I quote "He left but HAD to come back..."
Go, on read again...It is not the HOW but the WHY...

His father needed his son cooperation.
It is the same with God

I'm afraid you're wrong again soleil....It is not the Father the needed his son's cooperation. But the SON that needed his Father's cooperation....

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, [truly, truly—what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!] I say unto you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF…" (John 5:19).

Fortunately God will always have mercy, for the people He foreknew...

"So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy" (Ver. 16).
 

soleil10

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And yet you say soleil. And yet...
"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).
(I will speak more about these verses in Romans at the end of my psot)
For Paul, this objection is more about a manifestation of human insolence, and his "answer" is less an explanation of God's ways than the rejection of an argument that places humanity on a level with God. Pretty much all mankind has resisted God's will. Look at history. Paul was so upset with the Jewish people who were prepared by God for so long but rejected Jesus.
He was telling the gentiles not to be arrogants.

And yet YOU believe God never wanted it this way...But is powerless to stop it?
That is right. This is the big misunderstandng from so many people. God is so heartbroken by the situation of man. In Genesis, God even regretted that he had created man. What a sad situation ?
Jesus is the only one that was able to comfort His heart.

At Gethsemane Jesus was not asking God to take away this cup for himself. He knew that the way of the crucifixion was not the original will of God. A lot more was lost a the Cross. Jesus lost the potential to start a sinless family with his Godly seed. God has been waiting for so long for the first sinless famly.

In just one night God smashed the presumed free will of all the disciples. They lost confidence in their flesh after that night. James later shows us just how well he learned this lesson of so-called free self determinism:
"Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that" (James 4:13-15).
Free will? Where?

We do not have complete control over our physical life. As you know tragedy can happen. We cannot be sure about if we will physically live tomorrow We use the expression often "If the Lord will." You are playing with words. This is a poor example of predestination

But what is our Father's WILL? You probably didn't ask. But I'll answer anyway...
"... Our Saviour, God, Who WILLS [this is the very "will" of The Almighty Creator God] that ALL mankind be saved and come to a realization of the truth" (Ezek. 37).

Yes God's Will will never change. It does not matter how long it takes for us to return to Him. God does His part 100% but we have to do our own.

When Abraham did not do his first sacrifice correctly with the animals, he had a second chance but it was a much more demanding sacrifice the second time since it was his son. This time Abraham succeeded. Without our condition of faith, how could God regain trust in us. The whole bible chosen central figures hd to fulfill conditions of faith representing all humanity for God's will to advance.

I see why you never quote the Scriptures...
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).
Who was in charge here? Who gave Satan the order to "eat dust"? Is it God or man?

This verse is after the human fall had taken place. Adam had lost his position and authority. In God's pan Man had authority over the angels but A&E listen to Lucifer and put him in authority over them by not following God's commandment but following Lucifer's words. If your dad gives you a specific order but instead you make a bad deal or a contract with the servant then he has power over you.

Position? What position? The position to...
"…oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]" (II Thes. 2:4)?
I am not sure what you are trying to say here Are you talking about man or the ainti-Christ ?

I've looked at the parable (thousands of times) and it PROVES man has NO free will. I have told even you (soleil) that our decisions have nothing to do with free will...I ask YOU to read again and at WHY he chose to come back to his Father. Even YOU said and I quote "He left but HAD to come back..."Go, on read again...It is not the HOW but the WHY...
I'm afraid you're wrong again soleil....It is not the Father that needed his son's cooperation. But the SON that needed his Father's cooperation....
His father (God) unconditional cooperation was always there. He even gave his son his inheritance and let him leave. If his son had not made the effort to come back and repent sincerely, this would not have happened. He could still leave again.

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, [truly, truly—what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!] I say unto you,THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF…" (John 5:19).
Jesus became one with God, one with his heart. He was a truly a loyal and filial son. He was a part of his father. Jesus Adam's failure and became God first true son. Even at the cross God had to abandon him as Adam abandoned God. Still Jesus stayed loyal. He was representing all of humanity. If someone betrays you deeply in your life, you can forgive them but they will have to prove themself to you in order to regain your complete trust.

Fortunately God will always have mercy, for the people He foreknew...
"So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy" (Ver. 16).

The various theories of Predestination find their primary basis in the New Testament, especially in Chapters 8, 9, and 11 of St. Paul's letter to the Romans.
In those chapters, Paul puts great emphasis on grace as the sole basis of salvation and election by God.
Other passages in the Bible can also be interpreted as showing that all aspects of man's life are predestined by God, that man's personal happiness and misery and fortune and misfortune, as well as the rise and fall of nations are all predestined by God.

On the other hand, there are many passages that contradict this view.

For example, when we see that God commanded the first man and woman not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2:17), it is evident that man's fall was not predestined by God, but rather was the result of man's disobedience.
Jesus said "'... God so loved the world he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'" (Jn 3:16). By using the word 'whoever', Jesus shows that salvation is open to everyone, and therefore no one could be predestined for damnation.
In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says, "'Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened'", clearly showing that human effort plays a decisive role in shaping events, that life is not determined solely by divine predestination.

If we were to accept unconditionally the traditional teachings of absolute predestination, then prayer, evangelism, charity, and all other human effort would be of no value in God's Dispensation for salvation.

These bible passages appear to support the theory of absolute predestination
Romans 8:29-30,Romans 9:15-16, Romans 9:10-13, Romans 9:21

These bible passages conflicts with the theory of absolute predestination
Genesis 2:17, John 3:16, Matthew 7:7-8, Genesis 6:5-7, I Samuel 15:11, Ezekiel 33:11, Jonah 3:10, Mark 5:34, James 5:14-15
 

Azure24

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Pretty much all mankind has resisted God's will. Look at history. Paul was so upset with the Jewish people who were prepared by God for so long but rejected Jesus.
He was telling the gentiles not to be arrogants.

God MADE the creature subject the vanity....Mankind CANNOT do God's Will. Your proving my point, read my posts again...

...In Genesis, God even regretted that he had created man. What a sad situation ?

Yes how sad. How sad that YOU soleil believe this...If this is true, then point to the me the verse where God is supposedly sad.

You said "God even regretted that he had created man."

Heresy!!

God does not regret anything!!!

"For I am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT" (Mal. 3:6).

He knew that the way of the crucifixion was not the original will of God.

Jesus was not meant to be Crucified!?!?! This has gone too far soleil!!!

Have you never read the prophecy of Isaiah!!!

"Now if there is no RESURRECTION of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection.

Jesus came into the world to die!!! That was the whole purpose!! Even the simplest of Christians know this!!

God has been waiting for so long for the first sinless famly.

soleil, not only does God know the script of life God WROTE the script of life...

"...DECLARING the END from the BEGINNING"(Isa 46:10)

...This is a poor example of predestination

How about this...

"In Whom [GOD] also we have obtained [‘obtained’ not ‘earned’] an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [our ‘destiny’ was ‘pre’ arranged by God, not us] according to the PURPOSE OF HIM [not the free will, OF US!] Who WORKS ALL THINGS [EVERYthing] AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL [not OUR OWN WILL]" (Eph. 1:11).

Deny this all you want...The Scriptures never lie...

God does His part 100% but we have to do our own.

Where are the quotes of Scripture soleil? Oh, that's there isn't any...

Here's the last verse extended...

"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will [God’s will is still a mystery to the world of Christendom], according to His good pleasure [‘For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure—Phil. 2:13] which He has purposed in Himself [not in man’s fabled ‘free will’]: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE, ALL things in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH [that’s ALL the heavenly host and ALL humanity that has ever lived]; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance [in this age and this lifetime, ahead of the rest which must go through judgment first], being predestined according to the purpose of Him [not by the ‘maybe yes/maybe no’ uncertain shaky possibility of man’s supposed free will] Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9-11).

When Abraham did not do his first sacrifice correctly with the animals, he had a second chance but it was a much more demanding sacrifice the second time since it was his son. This time Abraham succeeded.

You keep giving me examples of choice...we make our OWN choices, but our choices are CAUSED by God!! Why did he succeed the second time...Through Faith? Where does Faith come from?

Answer:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘that faith’] not of yourselves [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God.(Eph. 2:8)

We do not do are own part!! All gifts are from God!! Nothing comes from us...

This verse is after the human fall had taken place.

Before or after? What's the difference? You said man gave Satan authority...This is wrong!!

soleil, answer this, why was the Serpent in the Garden?

I am not sure what you are trying to say here Are you talking about man or the ainti-Christ ?

Are you for real? There is NO Anti-Christ!!! Mankind is the Beast in Revelation!! Just about everyone in the forum agrees with this...I can show proof of course...

If his son had not made the effort to come back and repent sincerely, this would not have happened. He could still leave again.

You didn't read the parable again did you? Read it again...Why did the son make the effort to come back. The situation CASUED him to....God causes everything!!!

Jesus became one with God, one with his heart.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

Jesus did not "become" one with God, Jesus always was...

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58)

besides does Christ change?

"Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday, and today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8).

On the other hand, there are many passages that contradict this view.

LOL. So your basically saying God's Word contradicts...

The Bible may contradict, the Scriptures (original writing) do not...
 

soleil10

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Quote:
Originally Posted by soleil10
...In Genesis, God even regretted that he had created man. What a sad situation ?

Yes how sad. How sad that YOU soleil believe this...If this is true, then point to the me the verse where God is supposedly sad.

You said "God even regretted that he had created man."

Heresy!!

God does not regret anything!!!

Genesis 5:5-6 5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart
 

citizenzen

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Christian fight!!!

Get your popcorn.


metro_popcorn_box.jpg
 

Azure24

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More....

therefore no one could be predestined for damnation.

I believe you posted on my thread which was called "Hell is a Hoax"....

Jesus said "'... God so loved the world he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'" (Jn 3:16).

The proper translation is "aion life". And "Whoever" means nothing...

...Here is the truth CLEAR as day...

"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." (Matt 7:7-8)

God causes us to seek... "Not on is seeking out God." (Rom 3:11)
Therefore God causes to knock and ask...

"He [God] chooses us in Him [Christ] ... " (Eph. 1:4).

look what Jesus said...

"Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing, SEE NOT; and hearing they HEAR NOT, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah… for this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL [SAVE] THEM" (Verses 13-15).


Only after Jesus' Resurrection did the Apostles understand. Why?


"...opened He [Jesus] their understanding..."(Luke 24:44-45)


For example, when we see that God commanded the first man and woman not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2:17), it is evident that man's fall was not predestined by God, but rather was the result of man's disobedience.


Soleil, listen. Today, you read a MYSTERY from God....

What did Eve DO to fall?

It is believed by most that the Ten Commandments, if followed by everyone, would eliminate all of the problems of the world. Did you know that it is possible to keep ALL of the ten commandments without having the spirit of God or without being spiritually converted? 'Tis true.

Yes, even unaided by the Holy Spirit of God it is possible to keep these commandments of God. And the proof of this is simple: The penalty for breaking any of these commandments was death, and yet, most in Israel were not stoned to death for breaking these commandments. All of these commandments are referred to as "carnal commandments" in the New Testament (Heb. 7:16). They do not require a converted spiritual heart to keep and obey.

There was ONE commandment, however, that was of a spiritual nature. It had to do with the desires and inclination of the heart. It was the 10th commandment:

"Neither shall you desire [covet] your neighbor’s wife… house… field… manservant… maidservant… ox… ass… or any thing that is your neighbor’s" (Deut. 5:7-21).

However, was anyone ever stoned in ancient Israel for coveting any thing that belonged to his neighbor? No. Never. One could "covet" anything he wanted all day long, just so long as he didn’t break any of the other nine commandments!

One could "covet" his neighbor’s wife, just as long as he didn’t commit adultery with her—for that he would be stoned to death.

One could "covet" his neighbor’s ox, just so long as he didn’t steal it—for that he would be stoned to death.

Oh "coveting" was a sin all right, but since it cannot be detected by man unless it eventuates into stealing or the like, no penalty was enforced on such an one. However, to Paul, it was this commandment that proved to him that his heart was not right with God even though he performed all the visible and outward duties of the law:

It is GOD Who does the working of the clay. The clay does not determine its own destiny, that is the POTTER’S job:

"…for I had not known [Gk: ‘would not have known’] lust, except the law had said, "Thou shalt not covet" (Rom. 7:7).

So lusting and coveting that which is not legal, is a sin, but it carried no penalty in Ancient Israel. But before a man ever steals, or ever commits adultery with another man’s wife, he first covets, and that is a sin and the precursor to additional sins. But is it man's will that does the coveting? Can man's will, will NOT to covet? Is man's "will" the problem? No, no, it is NOT.

Soleil, YOU and the most of Mankind say it was the eating of the Fruit in which Eve sinned .....JESUS and I say Eve sinned long before this... READ CAREFULLY...

The Ten Commandments say:

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Jesus says:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her ALREADY in his heart
" (Matt. 5:28).

Do you see where I am going with this...

Sin begins in the heart....

Man’s mind is not the birthplace of sin. And certainly man’s will is not the originator of sin. God did NOT say: "O that there were such a WILL in them..." (Deut. 5:29). If we will just believe, our Lord tells us plainly where sin originates:

"And Jesus said, Are ye [all of you] also yet without understanding?

Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth FROM THE HEART; and they defile the man.

For out of THE HEART proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man" (Matt. 15:16-20).

Need I remind any that all of the above thoughts and deeds are sin?

So what pray tell does all this stuff have to do with Mother Eve’s sin in the garden? A lot—everything. The Apostle John classifies all sins into just three categories under one heading.

"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father IS NOT IN HIM. Fo
r [for means ‘because’] ALL that is in the world,

1. the lust of the FLESH,

2. the lust of the EYES,

3. and the pride of LIFE,

is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever" (I John 2:15-17).

Notice that "…ALL that is in the world…"—all the sins of the world, have their origin in one of these three categories of sin that proceeds "out of THE HEART." Not out of the "will" or out of the "mind," but "out of THE HEART." The "will" and the "mind" are subject to the "heart," and not the other way around. The heart is not subject to the will, neither is the heart subject to the mind, but rather both of these are subject to the birthplace of all human functions—the HEART!

Simply and unarguably, Jesus states as a fact, that all evil thoughts and sins proceed OUT OF THE HEART.

Now, with all that said, let’s prove once and for all that Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."

"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:

1. "…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)

and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES Gen. 3:6:

2. "…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)

and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISEGen. 3:6:

3. "…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2:15)

Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.

ALL of Eve’s evil thoughts of pride, vanity, lust, greed, disobedience, and finally thievery proceeded NOT from Eve’s supposed "free will," but rather from out of her HEART. And the only reason these sins could come out of her heart is because THEY WERE ALREADY IN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING. BEFORE Eve actually ate of the forbidden fruit, she committed every category of sin in the world. And need I remind us that we were also, ALL IN ADAM, before he ate of the tree (I Cor. 15:22). Will we deny our own eyes and the Scriptures we have just read?
 

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Azure, I appreciate your fervor but please calm down.

Basically, if I understand correctly from the 1000s of words you wrote. You are describing God as a puppet master and humans as his puppets on strings.
If we do good, it is God making us do it. If we do evil, it is God too.
God made us fall, so we can be saved by His grace and whatever we do does not make any difference.

Am I correctly depiciting your theory ?

Are you saying that all the suffferings, all the hatred, all the bloodshed, all the wars are planned by God ?
 

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Azure24

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You are describing God as a puppet master and humans as his puppets on strings.

No. You chose God all by yourself...

"Or are you despising the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing [here’s that ignorance thing again -- Satan who DECEIVES the whole world] that the GOODNESS OF GOD leads you to REPENTANCE" (Rom. 2:4).

"As concerning the gospel, they [Israel] are enemies for your sakes [the ‘casting away’ of Israel, Ver. 15]: but as touching the election [the sure thing that God had predetermined long before there ever was an Israel] they are BELOVED for the Father's sake. For the GIFTS and CALLING OF GOD are without repentance [changing]" (Vers. 28-29).

If we do good, it is God making us do it.

And Jesus says...

"Why do you call me good?"

"…None is good, save One, that is , GOD" (Luke 18:19).

If we do evil, it is God too.

We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS. Think of sin as DIRT. It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

God does not “allow” anything to happen: God is the ultimate CAUSE of all things that happen!

If a person is able to prevent a crime (let’s say without any expense or harm to himself) but doesn’t, he is no better than the one who commits the crime. So now the question is: “Where is Jesus Christ when all such crimes are committed?" Is Jesus no more powerful or responsible than the god Baal?

“About noontime, Elijah began mocking them [the priests of Baal]. You’ll have to shout louder than that; he scoffed, to catch the attention of your god! Perhaps he is talking to someone, or is out sitting on the toilet, or maybe he is away on a trip, or is asleep and needs to be wakened!” (I Kings 18:27, The Living Bible).

God made us fall, so we can be saved by His grace and whatever we do does not make any difference.

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).

If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;

“call those things which be not as though they were.”

“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).

“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

Those that follow Jesus will have aion life...This means life for an age...

John 3:16:"For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."

Those that don't, will come after...

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn [it will not happen all at once]: Christ[first], the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him[second]. Then the end will come[The of what? The end of the age], when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.[When Death is destroyed, no one is dead]For he has put everything under his feet. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all[Yes! ALL in ALL ULTIMATELY!!]"(Emphasis mine). WOW!


Are you saying that all the suffferings, all the hatred, all the bloodshed, all the wars are planned by God ?

"The LORD shall send upon you cursing…" (Deut. 28:20).
"The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto theee…" (Ver. 21).
"The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption…" (Vers. 22-23).
"The LORD shall make the rain…" (Ver. 24).
"The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten…" (Vers. 25-26).
"The LORD will smite thee…" (Ver. 27).
"The LORD shall smite thee…" (Vers. 28-34).
"The LORD shall smite thee…" (Ver. 35).
"The LORD shall bring thee…" (Vers. 36-47).
"Therefore shall you serve your enemies which THE LORD shall send against thee…" (Vers. 48-58)
"Then the LORD will make your plagues wonderful [extraordinary]…" (Ver. 59).
"Moreover HE [the LORD] will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt…" (Vers. 60-63).
"And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people…" (Ver. 64).
"And the LORD shall bring you into Egypt again…" (Ver. 68).

Oh, and...

"…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall SEND THEM strong delusion, that they should believe a [the] LIE...(II Thes. 2:10-12).

How does man's Will match up with God's??

"And ALL the people
[everyone’s will] answered together, and said, ALL THAT THE LORD HAS SPOKEN WE WILL DO. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord" (Ex. 19:8).


When our very own Lord cried out in agony to His Father because His flesh did not want to go through the crucifixion necessary because of the sin of the world, whose will prevailed?
"And He said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from Me: nevertheless not what I will, but what YOU WILL"
And He comes and finds them sleeping…"
"And again He went away and prayed, and spoke the same words. And when He returned, He found them asleep again…"
"And He comes the third time…" (Mark 14:36-41).
Now then, what was the outcome of this heart-wrenching prayer and request of our Lord to His Father? Was the will of our Lord free to override the will of His Father? Or did not Jesus recognize that it was His Father’s will that would prevail and that His will was not free to think or do contrary to His Father’s intentions? Answer:

"And he came the third time, and said unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour IS COME; behold, the Son of man is betrayed
[is being
betrayed] into the hands of sinners… and when they had crucified Him…" (Mark 14:41 & 15:24).
 

Azure24

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Allowed us..... (in regards to the christian account)

and....

Allowed to happen.

No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is “spirit”: “Now the Lord is that SPIRIT…” (II Cor. 3:17). Make no mistake about it; Jesus Christ is present at every crime scene that ever was or will be.

Jesus is at the scene of every crime in the world, and He is there before the crime actually happens. What would Jesus say to a woman if she were in the presence of some slimeball who is hell-bent on raping her little daughter? We know that Jesus is there, but what if Jesus manifested Himself right there, at the scene? What would Jesus say when the woman would beg Him to stop this slimeball from raping or murdering her daughter?
Surely He would stop the crime, right? Well if that be the case, how come there are so many rapes and murders that have not been prevented by Jesus? Do not all parents (almost all) pray for the safety of their children? So the pat Christian answer is: “Well, we don’t know why, but God allowed it.” God no more allows crimes that harm one or two individuals than he allows tsunamies that harm hundreds of thousands.
I am well aware of the fact that Jesus does at times intervene and stop some crime or evil from taking place. I am now referring to those times when He does not intervene and stop the crime. Why does He “allow” it?
You say, “Well, nobody knows the answer to that!” Oh but we do know the answer. The Scriptures give us the answer. We don’t want the Scriptural answer. We don’t want the truth. We can’t handle the truth. And woe to the messenger who delivers the truth!
And just what do we think we gain by using the catch phrase: “God allowed it?” Does that phrase get God off the hook of responsibility and place the responsibility upon His mal-functioning inventions? Does the word “allow” carry the connotation: “I had nothing to do with it?” “My hands are clean?” “It’s not my job to prevent evil crimes?” Is this what the word “allow” really means?

The American Heritage College Dictionary:

allow v. –lowed, -lowing, -lows. 1. To LET do or happen; PERMIT.”
permit v. –mitted, -mitting, -mits. 1. To ALLOW the doing of; CONSENT. 2. To GRANT. 3. To AFFORD OPPORTUNITY.

Now then, do we feel better about this theological heresy and nonsense by using the word “allow”? If a Police Officer were to, LET HAPPEN, PERMIT, CONSENT, GRANT, and AFFORD OPPORTUNITY for a horrible crime to take place without lifting a finger to stop it, would he be morally guiltless for “allowing” it to happen? Does the catch phrase “allow” with all of its definitions somehow make void the responsibility of the Police Officer? Is God Almighty less capable and less responsible than even a carnal-minded Police Officer?

Why then do theologians invent their own solution to the problem by applying the unscriptural word “allow” to the acts of God, rather than to accept the plain truth of Scripture concerning these matters? Well, for the exact same reason they invent the unscriptural phrase “free-will” to get God off of the hook of responsibility for the evils in God’s Own creation! They don’t want the truth; they can’t handle the truth; the truth would convict their own evil and carnal-minded hearts, and they would be forced to humble themselves and repent!

Could any of us honestly say with respect to our presence at an imminent crime, that if we: “allowed, let happen, permitted to happen, consented to its happening, granted it to happen, and afforded it the opportunity to happen,” then our hands are clean? We have no involvement in the crime? We had no obligations, and we are not to be held accountable and responsible?

You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can’t handle the truth.
So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God’s plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!

Altogether now...

“Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

Answer: NO!
“Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has not prey?"
Answer: NO!
“Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?"
Answer: NO!
“Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin [baited trap] is for him?"
Answer: NO!
“Shall one take up a snare [shall a snare spring up] from the earth, and have taken [caught] nothing at all?"
Answer: NO!
“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?"
Answer: NO!
“Shall there be EVIL in a city and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?"
Answer: NO!
The Answer is NO”!

Men are beasts...

“I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men [the whole human race], that God might manifest them, and that they might see that THEY THEMSELVES ARE BEASTS (Ecc. 3:18).

Next we read in verse 11:
“…He set the world in their heart…”
Which a few translations render even worse as
“…He set eternity in their heart…”
Then we are told that the reason for setting the “world” or “eternity” in their heart is:
“…so that no man can find out the work that God makes…”
There is absolutely no way to understand this Scripture as it is translated in the King James and some other modern English Versions. Let’s see if we can get some clarification on this phrase from a few other translations:


The New Revised Standard Version: “He has made everything suitable for its time…”
The New American Bible: “He has made everything appropriate to its time…”
A New Translation by James Mottatt: “He assigned each to its proper time, but for the mind of man He has appointed mystery…”
Concordant Literal Old Testament: “He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart…”










 

Marsh

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So God is in control of everything that went wrong and one day may be in a miilion year, He is going to snap his fingers and everything will be perfect. That's great. Actually it was His plan that we all suffer, people are killed, miserable, sick and dying, hungry, selfish and he is control of all of it.
Do you realize what you are saying ? And it is all in the scritptures according to you. That is quite amazing. That is a great God ! WOW...and He is our Father in Heaven on top of it.
Winner, you really believe this ?


And out comes my favourite propaganda tactic, emotional appeal. I must be right because I'm on the side of the sick, the dying, the hungry, the suffering.

Soleil, do you think that you love these people more than God does? Of course not; God loves his children. Still, any way you look at it God is and has always been in control of the world he created. Does that make him terrible for allowing suffering? Should it be him who we blame?

We are not half-way between God and Satan; Satan does not have that kind of power. We are living in the world that God created for us, and we are living in it under our own terms. God allows us to go hungry, and to suffer, and to die because that's the way we prefer it; Adam and Eve took a vote and decided that their way was better. We have followed suit. And yes, God could put an end to everything right now if he wanted to; instead, he chose to send Jesus to straighten us up first. That's a good thing.

By the way, it's not going to be as long as you think (a million years) before things change...
 

soleil10

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And out comes my favourite propaganda tactic, emotional appeal. I must be right because I'm on the side of the sick, the dying, the hungry, the suffering.
It was not a tactic

Soleil, do you think that you love these people more than God does? Of course not; God loves his children. Still, any way you look at it God is and has always been in control of the world he created. Does that make him terrible for allowing suffering? Should it be him who we blame?
Of course, God's love is much deeper than mine. Right now God is no in control of man. We are not under His dirct dominion. God suffers the most from seeing his children in such a pain.

We are not half-way between God and Satan; Satan does not have that kind of power.
A&E put Satan in position of authority. Jesus said "You are doing the will of your father the devil".

We are living in the world that God created for us, and we are living in it under our own terms. God allows us to go hungry, and to suffer, and to die because that's the way we prefer it; Adam and Eve took a vote and decided that their way was better. We have followed suit. And yes, God could put an end to everything right now if he wanted to; instead, he chose to send Jesus to straighten us up first. That's a good thing.
We even killed Jesus.

By the way, it's not going to be as long as you think (a million years) before things change...

It has been thousands of years so far
 

Azure24

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Of course, God's love is much deeper than mine.

...Show me any Scripture where love comes from man...

Right now God is no in control of man. We are not under His dirct dominion.

"So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy" (Ver. 16).

Notice: "...God that shows mercy."

I'll explain this if you want...

Jesus said "You are doing the will of your father the devil".

Exactly!! There are only two 'Wills' a man can have...

1)God's Will
or
2)The Will of the Flesh

Guess what soleil? Neither are our own!!

Fortunately, God shall deliver us from the "Bondage of corruption"

Only, and ONLY then will our "WILL" be "FREE"

"Because the creature [Gk: ‘creation’] itself also shall be delivered from THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

"If the Son therefore shall make you FREE, ye shall be FREE indeed" (John 8:36).

We even killed Jesus.

...And what did Jesus say to His Father about us ALL!!!

"FATHER ... FORGIVE THEM ... for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:33-34).

First, does anyone doubt that God the Father ALWAYS heard Christ’s prayers?

"Father, I thank thee that Thou HAST HEARD me. And I knew that thou HEAREST ME ALWAYS..."
(John 11:41-42).

Okay...

Yet, you believe people will go to this fabled "Hell"...

It has been thousands of years so far

You're trying to ignore my posts...

Soleil, why does it say...

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

Beacuse the World is Natural and the Natural passes away......

"For this world in its present [natural] form is passing away."(I Cor 7:31)

"The world and its desires pass away"(John 2:17)

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."(Rev 21:1)

 

17th Angel

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And nothing, and that's it.... lol In the christian account he allows us to fall he doesn't make us fall....

Loads and loads and loads of text and for somereason connected and quoted to me saying "Allowed to happen"

jesus.... someones had too many amphetamines today haven't they.... I don't know why you aimed that life story at me? I said nothing about heaven lol.... So not going to reply cause like... I dunno what that is all about lol.
 

soleil10

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...Show me any Scripture where love comes from man...
Is your question: Does love originate from man or can man return love to God ?

Exactly!! There are only two 'Wills' a man can have...

1)God's Will or 2)The Will of the Flesh.Guess what soleil? Neither are our own!!
Fortunately, God shall deliver us from the "Bondage of corruption"
Only, and ONLY then will our "WILL" be "FREE"
Man has the choice to act according to God's will or Satan's will. Both are his own choice.

..."Because the creature [Gk: ‘creation’] itself also shall be delivered from THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God."
The creation is suffering because we have not yet fulfill the first blessing to become fruitfull (mature) and we are multiplying Satan's lineage.

"If the Son therefore shall make you FREE, ye shall be FREE indeed" (John 8:36).
If Jesus could have be married and create a sinless family, he could have started God's lineage, the original sin could have been removed from humanity ove time. We could have connected to Him like to the branches of a tree. The tree of life would have become a reality.

With Jesus's ressurection on the cross, we are receiving spiritual salvation through him and the holy spirit (spiritual Eve). We still need physical salvation. This is why, the Messiah has to come back one more time
Both Adam and Eve fell. We are saved through parents. God himself is male and female. He is our Parent in Heaven.

..."...And what did Jesus say to His Father about us ALL!!!
"FATHER ... FORGIVE THEM ... for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:33-34).
First, does anyone doubt that God the Father ALWAYS heard Christ’s prayers?
"Father, I thank thee that Thou HAST HEARD me. And I knew that thou HEAREST ME ALWAYS..." (John 11:41-42).
Okay...Yet, you believe people will go to this fabled "Hell"...

That is not what I am saying. We need to not only believe Jesus but follow him through our actions. To those that a lot is given, a lot will be asked.

The Messiah's role is to remove our original sin, Adam' sin. We are still responsible for our own sins, family sins, collective sins as a nation.

..."You're trying to ignore my posts...
I dont' think so
 
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