Genuine Question To Theists Part 2 :)

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by enlightenment, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    I once had a conversation with a lady, who happened to be Muslim, as it goes.

    I happened to ask her who she loved most, her flesh and blood husband or her god.

    I was a bit surprised when she answered, v speedily, that god was the winner, by a country mile.

    Or maybe I shouldn't have been...

    Strange though, that an otherwise intelligent person can love that which is immaterial and without any evidence to that of a real loving partner!

    What is your angle on this, if you are religous/spiritual, do you love your god more than your wife or children, or husband?

    Can you qualify it?
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Now Jesus quoted Hebrew scripture...#1 to love the lord your G!d with ALL your soul, ALL your heart, ALL your strength or something to that affect bad quoter that I am.

    And beyond that at the time the winningest coach in Football (american version you know, not the round ball game) Vince Lombardi, was asked what his secret to success was. He said he told his players to focus on their lives in the manner.

    #1 is your connection to spirit, G!d, Creator, (I doubt if he referenced Allah, but he wouldn't worry if it was so)

    #2 take care of yourself, physically, socially, emotionally, mentally, spiritually.

    #3 insure you are on an even keel with your relationship with family, parents, siblings, kids etc.

    #4 is your career...football, school, whatever.

    Now this is a guy who had the rep for the tough, no fooling around coach who says Football, for his Football players is number 4, why??

    Becuase if you don't have the other three in order your mind is not 100% on the game here and now. And he wanted his players 100% on the field, so he wanted them 100% with G!d before they went on to number 2.

    That explains it to me....hope it does to you. If it doesn't, start at number one.
     
  3. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Are you married or have kids?

    Do you believe in a god?

    If you had to keep believing in god or let go of your kids and partner, which would you do.

    That is what I am asking...
     
  4. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    Responding to this myself, the question of believing in G!d or letting go of kids and partner couldn't make sense. In my case I'm an agnostic, but I experience G!d, pervasively, daily, as an underlying presence in the world around me. It's like what c0de said in the other thread cept that despite experience I don't believe. I'm open to the possibility that mine is an entirely subjective experience with no root in objective reality, mass delusion.

    A better question I think would be (and this might be a deeper question to others as well): If you had to either give up your partner/kids or never have any spiritual experience again, which would it be?

    But for me, I find my current relationship deeply spiritual. If all sense of the spiritual is sapped away then my relationship with my partner isn't the same. So I don't really know how to answer that hypothetical. If anything my relationship is an affirming "Oh G!d yes!" given how easily we might never have met and how we connect and compliment one another, as if we'd been made for each other. I still remain an agnostic just the same (it's easy enough to look for patterns that don't exist in what might well be the unguided, random unfolding of life) but it has been a powerful thing.
     
  5. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Okay chap, that is the question then?

    :)
     
  6. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    I think it's a way of of putting the question that will be easier for a lot of people where belief and experience can be very intertwined such that a person's belief in G!d might be seen to them more as a 'knowing' much in the same way another person might know that the sky looks blue during the day when it's not exceedingly overcast.
     
  7. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    How about supernatural experience, since all religions, well, certainly those of the Abrahamic faiths, are all based on seemingly 'supernatural' events?

    Just a thought

    :)
     
  8. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    At what point is an experience supernatural? I think some of that gets closer to belief, which may be more what you're getting it. I wouldn't be able to answer a question like that, but then I'm not in your target demographic. Maybe some theists will speak up about what question would be most answerable.

    I've gotta say though, while the abrahamic faiths began with supernaturalism, some modern streams reject it e.g. Reconstructionist Judaism but then I'm not sure they'd be in your target demographic either.
     
  9. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Well, I guess what I am saying is that I fail to grasp the psychology of someone that would choose to put an invisible, omnipotent, omniscient, etc, god, above their human partner, in the love and devotion stakes.

    No offence, but you know as a child, some have a so called magic friend, and that is harmless, as they grow out of it? Well that is what religion is like, to a degree. A personal invisible friend, not real in the accepted sense, just within the imagination of homo sap head!

    :p
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I think hypothetical questions like give up your kids or G!d are ridiculous. Don't deserve an anwer, they belong on monring zoo radio shows with who would you do...

    I'm not ready to sacrifice Ishmael or Isaac. And find it hard to contemplate giving up the omnipresent.
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    No offence? Are you kidding. You spent time writing that and these posts with the specific intent to offend.

    So what is the line of reasoning that would make a thinking atheist delude yourself so?
     
  12. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    And...yet....you ...did ...answer ....it

    :D
     
  13. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Not at all. That is your opinion, not my aim.

    Big difference.

    This is typical though, you 'offend' religion now, and you are no longer (usually), attached to spikes, you are suppressed by those that make these supernatural claims.

    If I swore to you that all life had began as a giant alien experiement, are you telling me that you would never find that absurd? Would you never have a banter with me over that? Don't be so precious!

    :rolleyes:
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    and uh...I didn't.

    ie 5 birds on a fence, three were gonna fly off, how many are left?

    5, they haven't flew off, and er...I didn't answer.

    Funny logic from the enlightened atheist.
     
  15. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    There we have it. You are not wiling to sacrifice. As I said, you did answer.

    Thanks
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    So you say...
    But it has no aim to offend. Interesting yet again.

    Thank you for thinking me precious. I do not care what religion you believe in or don't believe in. And if you believe that all life was a giant alien experiment...I'd allow you your space. By the way you aren't alone, you could go study with Ramtha.
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I believe I indicated I wouldn't give up either...of course you could check, by the way my children's names aren't Ishmael or Isaac, oops, twas a biblical reference, but maybe you knew that.
     
  18. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Mate, even if there were a supreme being, I am quite sure he/she/they would have a sense of humour.:)

    Religion needs to grow a sense of humour.

    That is one of the things wrong with Islam, the word humour fails to exist, and the word fails to exist in Christian Fundies, as well.
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I guess you haven't listened to the Axis of Evil...they fill comedy clubs in Muslim and Western nations...

    Why is it atheists can't just get along?
     
  20. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    The Axis Of Evil? Isn't that whatever collection of nations good old Christian America deems enemy nations - ;)

    'Atheists' are not an organised group, like Catholics or Muslims, one of the 'strengths' of the religous grip is that the flock are bound together by folklore and guilt.

    I cannot recount any war that has been done in the name of atheism.

    I can count quite a few that have had a religous motive.

    Yes, the arguement is that it is not religion that is at fault, 'it is man'.:rolleyes:

    Sure.

    But that is aking to saying that crack is harmless......as long as you don't take it!

    Again, no offence, but since the first religions were spawned, to the present date, religions have had so much conflict.

    If they were a football team, they would have got the red card!

    :)
     

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