Suicide in the name of Religion

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Resigned, Feb 4, 2009.

  1. c0de

    c0de Vassal

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,237
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since Mr. Resigned has resigned himself from properly answering objections to his arguments, the question which much be asked is: is the purpose of this thread no more then the demonization of Islam?

    Because obviously, there is no actual discussion happening here.
     
  2. Resigned

    Resigned Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    0
    You and my stalker are certainly free to discuss cutting and pasting of photos of swimsuit models.



    Can I suggest more bolded and color text to your posts? It adds that touch of melodrama.
     
  3. c0de

    c0de Vassal

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,237
    Likes Received:
    0

    You can start by countering my objections to you
    stated in Post #11, on Page #1 of this thread.
    And then move on to every one of my objections
    you ignored on almost every page since then.
     
  4. Resigned

    Resigned Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    0
    Instead of silly melodrama, why don’t you offer a coherent, relevant comment? Your “objections” were ignored for a reason. I’m under no obligation to respond to spam and cut and pasting that has been littered across this thread.

    I do not accept your silly demands that I am under some requirement to respond to cut and pasters and most decidedly, not within the context of a thread devoted to exposition of intentional and willful mass murder of people who are not the “right kind” of moslems or those who are slaughtered in furtherance of some religious perspective. Do not mistake my tolerance of your opinion with lack of strong conviction of the essential wrong-headedness of your vituperation of concepts beyond your ken.

     
  5. c0de

    c0de Vassal

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,237
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again with this "cut and paste" idea... are you accusing
    me of plagerism again? What did Cut and Paste exactly?

    My objections were DIRECTLY related to your argument.
    It seems that by accusing me of plagiarism you are trying
    to find a way to avoid dealing with them.
     
  6. Resigned

    Resigned Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    0
    ...and still nothing.
     
  7. c0de

    c0de Vassal

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,237
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, you have failed to respond to the objections.
    Therefore, it is proven that the purpose of this thread is
    nothing more then the demonization of Islam.

    If you really were here to have a discussion,
    you would respond to the objections.
     
  8. Resigned

    Resigned Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not going to address your continued spamming.
     
  9. c0de

    c0de Vassal

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,237
    Likes Received:
    0

    What you will probably have to address is my formal complaint against these false charges of plagiarism. This time, I am not going to let it go. I have already filled an official complaint and PM'd the board administrator.
     
  10. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    You start a thread. Then when people respond you call them "spammers" and tell them you're not going to have a conversation with them.

    It seems you want the whole thread to yourself. Isn't it kind of self-indulgent for you to think you're entitled to (1) mislead people about your intentions to engage in a discussion and (2) use this forum for your polemics?

    It seems our part in all this is to indulge your self-indulgence.
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,118
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    And the accompanying text...
    found at Western Jihad: Yes, We Have Suicide Bombers, Too, We Just Call Them 'Heroes' | World | AlterNet

    It is still my contention that 'evil' is a matter of perception and whether one is a terrorist or patriot depends on what side you were on. I live in a country founded by our forfathers....terrorists according to the King....

    I am just finding it more and more difficult to look down my nose with disdain at anyone...
     
  12. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd say the title of this article is misleading because it implicitly endorses the view that suiciders are engaged in a form of Jihad or that they have a religious agenda of some kind. Available self-report evidence from failed suicide attempters is that religion had nothing to do with their decision to commit suicide.

    It is always remarkable how much theorizing goes on without any evidence at all. Like who care about the truth??...
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,118
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    I'd find that interesting! Have you got a source?

    Didja check out the pope's quote in the article?
     
  14. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    Namaste Wil,
    There's a bunch of them

    The suicide rate in the UK is about 10 per 100,000. It is higher in the US. Compare that with a country like Kuwait, which has a rate of 2 per 100,000. This doesn't shed light on ideological motives for suicide attempts, but it does suggest the possibility of low levels of acceptance for suicide in a predominantly Muslim population.

    I will dig up some interviews for you, Wil. Israel has a separate prison for failed suicide attempters who have been interviewed in detail. My recollection is that revenge was at the top of the list for motives. To my knowledge, Islam does not teach revenge and somewhere in the Koran I recall seeing verses that speak against it.

    Suicide attacks have civilian casualties. This is contrary to the war ethic we find in the Koran that calls for the protection of noncombatants.

    One might reasonably deduce that propaganda efforts designed to smear Islam by suggesting that it is a religion that supports suicide are lies. More specifically, one might deduce that the suggestion that appears in the OP that we can find ideological support for suicide in the Koran is a lie. In other words, it seems we are now going on 20 pages talking about a lie.

    To my way of thinking, the thread reflects on a general interest in the topic, but to some extent it says something about the "Don't want to know" attitude of some people who are intent on seeing the world in a certain way even when the facts don't mesh with their perceptions.

    Like I said, I'll do some digging. But since you know your way around the Google, Wil, you should feel free to do your own search on interviews with failed suicide bombers. Go ahead and include the term "motive."
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,118
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Namaste N-N,

    I can see your point on your run of the mill suicide. That it not be religious based.

    However seems to me suicide bombers of the ilk we've had lately are largely religious in orientation (distorted religious views maybe, but they think them religious) as evidenced by the video tapes and letters left by the successful ones.

    Could it be the unsuccessful lacked the faith commitment to follow thru?

    (note I am looking, thanx)
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,118
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    It appears in disputes that surround religion suicide bomber recruiters use religion and where it is politcal or racial they use that. That makes sense to me.
     
  17. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wil,
    How can there be a lack of faith commitment if it is contrary to Islam? The alternate hypothesis make more sense: it is because of their attachment to Islam that the failed attempters they didn't follow through. Consider the comment from Wafa al-Bissm, a failed Palestinian bomber who had made a prior attempt on her birthday in November 2004. The attempt
    scarred her body, deformed the fifth digits of both hands, and left her fingertips and chin discolored. Long before that, she told me, she had been in despair. She had grown up desperately poor. Her father was "primitive." He rarely let her go out except to school or the mosque. He and her brothers beat her. She tried to throw herself out a window at age 18, but courage failed her. "Islam says you can't kill yourself. I was afraid of the shame for my family," she said.
    She reports no religious motive for her second suicide attempt. She didn't seem to have had a nationalistic motive either:
    Wafa al-Biss had never really wanted to become a suicide bomber, she told me tearfully. Life and bad luck had given her no choice. Born into wretched poverty in Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza, one of 12 children, she said that much of her body and fingertips had been burned in a freak cooking accident at home the year before her failed mission. She had been coaxed, no, coerced into becoming a martyr by "Abul Khair," an older man from the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade. "I wish I had never met him," she said bitterly

    "I don't care about Jews and Arabs," she told me in the prison; she had never been political. Israelis at Soroka, where she had spent three months with her burns, treated her with "respect and dignity," she said. "They had been very kind," she said. "But I still wanted to kill myself."
    The Bomb Under the Abaya: Women who become suicide bombers :: Judith Miller

    Obviously, this is just one case, But I don't think we're going to find much consistency as far as motives. People have very complex reasons for doing something as extreme as suicide. A deep personal despair would likely be a common element.

    I think it is very questionable to in effect exploit the personal suffering that would lead to suicide by ignoring it for propaganda purposes. Anyone who would do that is poisoning themselves.

    Speaking of videos, we are aware of the 2005 London bombings being suicide attacks.
    On 6 July 2006, a video statement by Shehzad Tanweer was broadcast by Al-Jazeera. In the video, which may have been edited to include remarks by al-Qaeda member Ayman al-Zawahiri, Tanweer said: "What have you witnessed now is only the beginning of a string of attacks that will continue and become stronger until you pull your forces out of Afghanistan and Iraq. And until you stop your financial and military support to America and Israel."
    7 July 2005 London bombings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I have seen the diaries kept by one of the suicide 2005 London bombers attesting to the political motive of revenge and deterrence.

    Btw, the first Hamas suicide bombing was in April of 1993. If one is intent on arguing the case, one would need to come up with a "religious" explanation as to why there were no suicide bombers before that. Iraq and Afghanistan didn't have them before either.
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,118
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    I am not intent on saying it is a religous thing. I said in religous wars that religion is used by the recruiters to incite bombers, in other conflicts nationalism, racism, etc. is used.

    WikiAnswers - Who was the first suicide bomber

    There were suicide bombers previously as noted in the article above. (including Iraq and Iran). Also in the case of Hamas, (not unlike Osama for the US) Israel helped fund the fledling organization to balance out the PLO (our enemies enemy is our friend), and when they didn't suit their purposes they dropped funding.
     
  19. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    The religious thing is what I'm addressing because that is (supposedly) what this thread was about! :)

    There is no mention of religion anywhere in your citation.

    I see there was one in Iraq. A thirteen year old. This incident does not weaken the point I was making, that if there is a religious explanation, why is it that there is no historically consistent trend for suicide in other than low rates of suicide in an Islamic population as compared to the UK and the US?

    According to Robert Baer, the first Palestinians suicide bombing was revenge action i connection with for a massacre of worshippers at a Hebron. Additional case studies converge on the revenge motive. A Palestinian woman by the name of Shefa'a al-Qudsi. In an interview last year, she specifically mentioned revenge as a motive:
    She wanted the world to know about the suffering of the Palestinians under occupation, but said: “At the time, I didn’t think as a human being. I thought only of revenge."
    From Palestinian bomber to peace activist - Israel-Palestinians - MSNBC.com

    A more detailed interview with Judith Miller reveals:
    There was a hotel there with a dancing hall, a beautiful place by the sea. A lot of Orthodox Jews live nearby; it was usually crowded. Because the Israelis demolished everything beautiful in our lives, I wanted to do the same to them
    There was also a personal history. She was radicalized by the second Intifada:
    Living conditions on the occupied West Bank and Gaza deteriorated as the second Intifada dragged on. "Two of my cousins were killed, my brother was jailed. The army invaded our city and demolished houses. A war raged inside me: Should I, or should I not do something? The Israelis were killing us like rats and nobody was doing anything, not the Arabs, nobody. And I thought: No one will help us. I must make these dogs know how we feel. Even bullets that miss make noise."

    .....she recounted her failed marriage and the other disappointments that made martyrdom so attractive. While all of her siblings had finished college, she had dropped out of high school at 16 "to marry the man I loved," her first cousin. But Essam had humiliated her by marrying a Romanian while working in Europe and asking her for a divorce. At 19, she returned to her parents' home, rejected, a single mother with dubious remarriage prospects. Essam eventually asked her to remarry him after his second wife left him and their two children to return to Romania, she said. But she refused, "as a matter of dignity."
    Obviously complex motives, raising question about the merits of the OP and later attempts to defend a "religious" explanation."
     

Share This Page