Where are we at?

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Tao_Equus, Feb 6, 2009.

  1. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    I'm one of those that believe the technology exists, at least in crude form.

    The trouble I think you are missing is that hydrogen is exceptionally volatile. Remember the Hindenburg? If you don't, I guarantee that is what Congress thinks every time the issue comes around. Hydrogen is just too unforgiving for the masses of idiots to play with.

    Now, I have heard on occasion of various research with fuel cells and the like, and it would be great to see progress made in those directions. But again it is about being able to make a profit. If it costs more to make and implement than it can be sold for, there is no justifiable business reason to go ahead. You can do what you want to satisfy your philosophical ethics, and if you are independently wealthy, more power to ya!

    I simply cannot afford at this time to trade my 5 year old gasoline powered pick up truck for an over priced promise that I can have all the fuel I want for pennies if the resource is not there, the infrastructure is not there and the reality is not there. I don't have the time or room to devote to distilling my own fuel (not to mention various EPA laws involved). I have a truck for a reason, I use it to haul things from time to time. Will this new fuel power my vehicle reliably up to acceptable highway speeds while carrying a load, and do it for the same or less money than I now spend? If the answer is "no" anywhere in that equation, then I am better off keeping what I've got. My sacrifice was in getting a 4 cylinder when I could have opted for a 6 or 8 cylinder. I would have preferred 14 inch tires, but I was told they no longer put 14's on these trucks (sounds like BS to me...). I would have preferred cruise control...not an option on a 4 but available (at extra charge) on a six. A standard gets better mileage, I got the automatic because my legs won't allow me to shift like I could when I was a kid.

    Everything in life is trade offs. We all make decisions that impact the environment, the economy, the people and planet around us. It is impossible not to. The trick is to be as responsible with those choices as you can given the situation you find yourself in.
     
  2. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Global business is my middle name. Just take my word for it, I understand it more than most of the people in any administration.

    But clearly thats got nothing to do with why I oppose China and again I specifically state that what I mean by that is the "current Chinese government".

    And if you love what you say, you must make them understand that for them "money makes the world go around". And that is the path to happiness for them. Not their military, and imperialist ideals.

    Well again, I just point my finger at the governments, and not the people. Let me be clear on that.

    This is highly less likely to happen compared to the current Chinese government on verge of dissolving. Plus I think America would be the least in trouble even if they were isolated, plus Europe will never abandon America. And if you add a couple other countries, I think it would be more appropriate to say if we split the communist, OPEC countries apart from the global economy, they would be the one`s in isolation and noone would miss them, except for a couple fake-communist loving people in the west. Who are free to move there anytime now..

    Why do you talk in the past tense like as if what you say has already been done? That is exactly what I am trying to prevent from happening now so that what you currently say will not hold true in the future. Currently America and Japan let the Chinese(always government in current China) make money, and its no problem if they become the richest in the world which they are not yet, as long as they keep their military in check, and ideology to at least themselves which I don`t think are their intentions. Building a military to match America is clearly a move towards disestablishing world peace. One might argue that its not fair and every country has the right to build a world-class military. My answer is "NO". On top of that, I might add, it wouldn`t be wise. Or the least painful.


    I don`t have a problem with Chinese people as long as they don`t educate the next generation to hate particular people, which they do not seem to be doing along with the Russians. I only see trouble with the way their administrations conduct business, and it`ll be less painful for ALL OF US if we pluck the trouble in its infancy (current stage is like straight course to hardened Neo-stalinism, they`ll kill for it too).

    Frankly I think some people on both sides are interested in the most pain possible to inflict on the public, at this rate. Now who`s side are you on?


    TK
     
  3. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    I frankly see the second Iraq war as Bush`s personal revenge and follow up towards Hussein`s attempt to assassinate Bush senior. While the public majority may not currently agree with war on such grounds, when you think that Hussein was the 6th richest man in the world with resources to kill off all Bush`s and their friends for thousands of years, which people like him do think like that.

    That gives Bush every reason to make Hussein go away at all expense. That would roughly be in the United States interest too, although some may say it is narrow minded. But if we can`t protect a president and his family from any pay back from his duties in the past, why elect a president at all. We couldn`t possibly expect the president to do his job if he creates enemies and we allow those enemies to kill, for example his grand-children decades later.

    Hussein`s sons were psycho killers who even would kill children almost seems for fun, so I`d have to say nothing but trouble was headed towards all the nations who fought in the first Iraq war.

    I just think it was a poorly managed and planned operation though. Like one would wonder if a 5 year old did the planning.


    TK
     
  4. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    I don`t think I`m missing anything besides you are like those who insisted that we didn`t need anything besides horse carriages. Don`t be offended, most people are like that, I understand.

    But don`t tell me that you wouldn`t be thrilled to just turn on a switch and fill up your car at home safely. Then why criticize me on this point?

    TK
     
  5. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Better yet when we buy our cars at the dealer, they`d fill it up with distilled water, and it`d run on that water for years until we need to fill it up with water again at home. That`s technology that can generate enough hydrogen from water on-demand using our car batteries.

    That`s the kind of technology that I have a hunch we can accomplish if we spend billions. One might argue that we shouldn`t spend so much on a gamble, then what the heck are we spending multi-fold amounts of money on experimenting with nuclear energy?, that we know we`re gonna get charged for it when its available.

    IMO, anything else is a backup alternative or nonsense. If it wasn`t nonsense, the fossil fuel companies would be going out on a whim maybe even spending $trillions to prevent us from accessing it or majorly getting onto the next bandwagon. But there`s a problem, everything that energy companies depended on like the need for centralized structure, expensive equipment etc.. those days will be over if we figure out a cheap way to generate loads of hydrogen from water.

    And future generations would be laughing at us. Or maybe not because they get taxed for breathing air.


    TK
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    u r 2 funny
    Again, I enjoy your dreaming. But we've been trying to beat perpetual motion for years. You are thinking we can create perpetually more energy from less.

    Now there is a shock absorber being created that is designed to generate electricity as you bounce down the road....but again that is conservation of energy, not creation of same.

    But your insistence at calling names for people who insist you go get some education on this manner is a joke. No we don't want to go back to horse and buggy or impede progress. But we'd love to harness that creative mind of yours and allow you to realize you'd be better off working within the laws of physics.
     
  7. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    It`s only the mainstream scientific community thats saying I and others are stating things outside the laws of physics, its not Einstein or Hawkins so I`m not that convinced. And I bet you they`d say anything provided they are paid enough.

    There opinions are assumptions based on the little knowledge we have about our surroundings. Meaning they assume there is nothing outside their parameters which is absurd to begin with, but outside the parameters automatically meaning outside the laws of physics is doubly messed up.

    If I were more of a mathematician than a political or business personnel I`d be happy to go and kick their behinds, but unfortunately I wasn`t gifted that much in math as well like the genius`s.


    TK

    p.s. I`m really good at dreaming about things that actually come true, btw. If I was good at a couple more things I might have been rich by now. Thanks for the support.
     
  8. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Other than the law of entropy as it relates to energy...

    So what is holding *you* back from creating this miracle? Obviously nobody else *gets it,* so why not show us the way? Make a demonstration model; make your pitch to some venture capitalists; be sure your legal @ss is covered and all your patent ducks are in a row; build or create the required infrastructure by leveraging your venture capital and through sales of franchises, stocks, bonds and options; and nurse your baby into fruition.

    I suppose its possible my response can be read as sarcasm, its really not. If you think you can make it work, go for it.

    On the other hand, if you expect others to work miracles for you...that is a completely different issue altogether.
     
  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Who is this *them?* You tell me its the Chinese government, and then write as though speaking of the people. Its very confusing to me. I'm trying really hard to interpret. If you knew any Chinese people, you would know already that they tend to be very industrious and hard working people. My wife and I just got back from the tax preparers office. My wife was very insistent from day one when she came to this country that she wanted to go to work and she wants to open her own shop. She gets paid by her employer as a sub-contractor. As a result, she is getting a rather rude awakening to US tax code law. I have done what I could to guide her through this, but we do have our struggles with communication. The concept of taxes is completely foreign to her.

    Let me restate in another way...in China there are no payroll taxes, no income taxes. You keep every dollar you are able to earn.

    There *are* ramifications. Credit is virtually unheard of, homes are paid in full in cash upon purchase. As a result, homes cost less compared with equitable US homes. What costs 200K here might be purchased for (I'm guessing) 20K or less there, *but* it must be paid in full at purchase...there are no mortgages.

    Food costs less. Mass transportation in the cities (at least in Beijing) is exceptionally good, buses and trains regular and on time. Taxis ranging from bicycles to limosuines are available to get to those places outside the city not served by transit. All priced reasonably compared to the US.

    But government services are limited. There are no labor unions. No Workman's Comp Insurance. No Welfare (as we know it). No Social Security. If you get injured on the job, that's your problem.

    So while there are some drawbacks, the Chinese people understand things through this type of lens. As a result they are very resilient and very careful and frugal.

    frontline: teacher center: teachers guide: china in the red | PBS

    frontline: china in the red: introduction | PBS

    FRONTLINE: search results | PBS

    These three links should suffice, the last being an extensive list of further reading related to one program on Frontline (PBS) titled "China in the Red."

    These should explain a great deal about how China's economic system has morphed, and as important, why. Buried in the program is the connection between the student uprising at Tiananmen Square and how the goveernment swapped the communist economy for a capitalist one *in order to retain power.* In short, "the current Chinese government" *is NOT* "on verge of dissolving."

    Why *must* somebody lose in order for us to win? There *is* such a thing as a "win-win" scenario, and it is actually the business ideal, particularly in global business.

    But you already know that, I'm sure. ;)

    Manipulating things so that China...or Russia...or Saudi...or anybody *loses* is begging to start a war with them. All nations will save face, they all have their honor to uphold. And like any animal, when injured and backed into a corner they will come out with teeth barred and ready to fight to the death. History is littered with examples.

    You are too late to stop it. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the internationalists could see the writing on the wall in the '60's, that China had to be engaged in some productive manner or they would eventually go berserker on the rest of the world, by necessity. Which is why Richard Nixon extended a diplomatic hand in 1972 (I think it was), and we've been getting steadily chummier ever since.

    OK, let's get philosophically ethical for a skinny moment. In that cuddly little imaginary realm where everybody in the world is equal...China would have almost a full third of everything by virtue of population alone. Through no other reason than sheer numbers, China would be the wealthiest nation...the US would be way on down the line somewhere around number ten if I recall, and Japan would be even further down the list. So how equitable and fair is it that the US and Japan have a disproportionate share of the wealth?

    And where is the wisdom in holding others back from attaining the same living standard as the rest of the first world? Think China not a first world nation? How many astronauts has Japan launched into space? On their own without hitching a ride with some other nation?

    You don't have a problem with people, as long as they live up to your set of standards for everybody?

    Forgive me, but this is laced with so much irony that I can't help but chuckle. I don't know to see it as ego-centric, cultural-centric, national-centric, or maybe just plain old...well, intolerant.

    When the smoke clears and the dust settles I am on my own side. Until then I am on the side that is most expedient for me and my house, as long as my ethics are not compromised. Governments come and governments go...render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's...live and let live...as for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.
     
  10. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    I was rather dismayed to learn of the same thing from Bush jr's mouth.

    Just spent a little time going over Sun Tzu's "the Art of War." Again. It's short enough, and a very enlightening read, for those with the stomach for the leadership required.

    Art of War by SunTzu [SunZi] -English Hypertext

    It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. Personally I think our fine people in uniform are doing the absolute best they can with the mission they have been given.

    Of course, if you think you can do better, by all means step up to the plate and put on the uniform...I'm sure they would welcome any assistance they can get.
     
  11. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Interesting. I was not aware Einstein or Hawking had dismissed the law of entropy as it relates to energy? Care to share a quote and link?

    There's a lot of that going around.

    I recommend Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow Rich," particularly chapter one:

    http://www.zpointprocess.com/resources/thinkandgrowrich.pdf
     
  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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  13. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    I was intrigued to read recently in The Shock Doctrine about Tienanmen Square. According to Klein and her sources, it was not only a student demonstration, but also included industrial factory workers, small-scale entrepreneurs, and teachers. These people were protesting against the very sudden neoliberalization of the economy, as advocated and instructed by none other than Milton Friedman during his visit in September 1988. The authoritarian government of China was moving from a communist central economy to a deregulated capitalist economy, and very quickly. The protests were a six-week popular uprising against the extreme economic changes. Another way to put that is that they were a democratic expression of not wanting these sudden capitalist measures forced on the country's economy. They didn't want the industries sold off and privatized. This is a different picture than what was presented in the media at the time and how the protests and their squashing are remembered. People remember them as students protesting the communist regime, but that is not the whole picture. The protesters--again, a more diverse body than just students--were calling for democratic reforms, that is correct; interestingly, though, they were not in favor of the kind of corporate capitalism that many people assume goes hand-in-hand with democracy: this was a democratic movement to pressure the government from halting their move towards deregulated capitalism.
     
  14. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    I`m working on it as you speak..

    My specialty is in accomplishing things like this, but this is a really big mountain that can`t be begun to be expressed how big it is. I haven`t even started.

    TK
     
  15. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Look, I`m old enough to know Tiananmen Square. You seem old enough too. Did you forget? That`s only the tip of iceberg, and its still the same government in nature.

    Once a Chinese government associate told me that over 80% of China is illiterate. I know plenty of Chinese who left China for what it is, and know some who love China. Anyways, that`s enough to say the things I have said.

    You think with the money they make, by now they`d at least be able to afford an educational system for the masses than buying up oil fields around the world, with the money we let them make. They`ve been told the Chinese government has no cash, btw. The Chinese government has been on the verge of collapse since the 80`s, that why they trip out really fast, because some incidents are that crucial to them.


    TK

    p.s. if you look it up, they`ve killed plenty of Christian priests I think, if that makes any difference. LOL. And I too have my eye`s on how un-democratic the world is, with regards to this I have no problem with the Chinese. But can you drop the view that I have a problem with Chinese people as AGAIN, I just have a problem with the current Chinese government. I have plenty of Chinese friends, but I will not work with anyone who works for the Chinese government.

    And your wife is from the rich parts of China. She`s like a millionaire in China compared to the masses. Whereas the Chinese who come over to the US endenturing themselves are the masses.
     
  16. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Well I`m sure they would have never welcomed my assistance or Japan`s assistance as the leadership.

    Pretty easy to figure out that the war was opening up a pandora`s box, though what was in it even surprised me. But if I observed correctly, there was no pandora`s box in the US military planning in the beginning, in that sense many others would done better.

    TK
     
  17. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    I think there would be plenty of links to where the scientific community opposed our great genius`s. For starters the one`s who thought the world was flat, and the one`s who didn`t think flying vehicles were great, but you can do your research yourself as this is endless.

    I personally have the problem with our definition of time and speed of light as that seems like something we invented out of convenience. Those definitions will change in time, I`m sure, when we have better instruments to detect, and our understanding of our surrounding increase. About the only thing I know with regards to this area is that we as humans know little, which is basis to which the great scientific community disagrees.

    It`s a waste of my time to debate you on this as I`m not that knowledgeable in proving things like true scientists, but to note a few, the scientific community does state that zero-point energy does not exist. Einstein, Tesla seem to disagree. But whenever a man says he`s the expert and it can`t be done, I`ll have to disagree with him if he seems average.

    I know what its like to be chased by thousands of MBA`s who in beginning didn`t have a clue about venture capital. I started a venture in video sharing websites in 1999 which I did presentations to venture capital associates around Harvard and Stanford, I proposed iTunes&iPod to angel investors around 2000, to name a few. I even have another venture ready now dispite the economy, I`m not about trends, this is what I do.

    At first I thought you were quoting text on Napolean.. I`ll check out your link.

    TK
     
  18. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Hey Pathless! I wasn't trying to ignore you.

    I didn't know about Klein (unfortunately the site is blocked to me). But yeah, its been really difficult to get any "straight" reporting in the West about any of this, and the Chinese censors really work overtime to block it in the East. But like a lot of goings on at higher levels of government (including our own) a lot of things can only be seen with any degree of clarity in hindsight...unless you just happen to be one of the key players deep inside as it unfolds.

    I'm not sure how well I could agree with Klein's assessment, in light of how well the Chinese people come to embrace the capitalist spirit. There's something rewarding even on a spiritual / emotional level about being able to create and keep wealth for yourself. In theory, the harder you work the more wealthy you become; not for an ephemeral ideal like the state but for a real tangible like your family.

    Now obviously the state *must* be getting a cut from somewhere, and a sizeable one at that. I haven't been able yet to pinpoint how that is supposed to work. I do understand that in order to get things done (permits, variances, business arrangements, various other legal and necessary fees and such), certain palms must be greased. We touched on this in class regarding global business ethics. What would be considered bribery in the states, and therefore illegal and unethical, is culturally normative in a whole lot of other cultures...and one of them happens to be China.

    But I am not so certain the people were protesting at Tiananmen about having capitalism thrust upon them. Indeed, with the absolute zeal in which they have taken it up and run with it, I think serves as circumstantial evidence that they are more than happy and quite comfortable with the idea and ideal.

    The implications for the states is that we may have created our own Mr. Hyde to our Dr. Jekyll. The East is famous for taking someone else's idea and developing it to the utmost. Proprietary information is an alien concept, patents and copyrights are meaningless (as I'm sure any number of violations and bootleg confiscations demonstrates). Teaching capitalism to a people who have a natural inclination (pre-Mao?) may be our undoing in that regard...they may just out-capitalize the so-called capitalists.
     
  19. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    Didn't seem like you were. ;)

    All very true. If you can't see Klein's site where you are, maybe you will be able to peruse the summary of her book on amazon.com.

    Well, keep in mind that she was discussing the protests in Tienanmen Square, not how capitalism has played out in China. Of course Klein has her own particular lens with which she is analyzing events. Knowing your own ideological leanings, I would imagine that you would balk, disagree, or otherwise take issue with the thesis presented in her book, and that is certainly your prerogative as a freely-thinking individual.

    Again, Klein's is only one analysis of the situation and anyone is certainly free to disagree. She does present a compelling and well-researched narrative, though. China and Tienanmen Square are only one of the many instances of "disaster capitalism" which she presents in the book. Interestingly enough, free-market savant Milton Friedman plays a role in several of them, including China's transition and the even more repressive regime of Pinochet in Chile.

    Patents and copyrights would rightly be meaningless in a communal setting, which may be part of the reason they are largely ignored in China.
     
  20. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    I'm certainly old enough to remember what was reported in the West about the Tiananmen uprising. Of course, I wasn't there *at that time.* I've been to Tiananmen Square since, and I have spoken to a few people who lived in
    China during that time, albeit briefly as it is a taboo "hush-hush" subject. I have walked across the same motorway where the man bravely stood in front of the column of tanks. I watched people fly kites in the same general area where the army opened fire on unarmed demonstrators.

    The people I know are from the cities, particularly Fushun, Guangzhou and Shanghai. All of whom are quite literate. With the focus the Chinese put on education, I just don't see how that figure can be accurate. Granted, in the NW provinces and really rural areas there probably is some illiteracy, not unlike how it is in our own central Appalacians.

    In my wife's case, her family is migrating to escape the *collapse of* industry in the NE. I realize this sounds counterintuitive when all we hear about is Chinese manufacturing this and Chinese exporting that...but the NE was the industrial dynamo for China for a long time and has pretty well worn itself out. The factories where my wife's family worked have long since closed down, and work has become increasingly scarce. My wife is not the only member of her family to immigrate, and we are trying now to bring her 23 year old daughter over...she has had to move to the Southern part of the country to find work.

    In China families pay for their childrens' schooling, and the competition is fierce to get into the good schools and get into the universities. English is commonly taught as a second language, although it is more of a British / Queen's English (I'm guessing because of the Hong Kong connection). English is also the global language of commerce and transportation which undoubtedly in my mind is the reason there is so much emphasis placed on learning it. I have seen example of a pre-schooler speaking better English than most American children at that age, no doubt an exceptional child. I have yeet to see an American child around the age of 5 that speaks fluent Chinese in addition to English.

    Oil makes the wheels turn. That's just the way it is right now...if you want to get anything from point A to point B in any reasonable amount of time and with any reasonable reliability and with any reasonable regularity, it requires oil and oil byproducts. How can you fault China for wanting to develop resources to keep the transportation infrastructure moving? After you get your hydrogen thingie up and running, share it with them...that way they can spend that money elsewhere. You could always cut a deal that requires them to spend the money they save on education as a part of your business arrangement.

    Yeah, I know. That stuff goes back before Marco Polo. The West has done some pretty nasty stuff to China as well through the years. Here's but one example:

    Old Summer Palace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Second Opium War 1856-1860.

    Taku fort, 1860

    Our Regiments in China and Hong Kong

    Old Summer Palace, Ruins of Yuanmingyuan, Beijing

    The Old Summer Palace - 360-degree virtual tour - (yuan ming yuan) Beijing, China

    I had the privilege of standing in the middle of the ruins, and all I could do was shake my head at the stupidity.

    Considering you do not know my wife, I am amazed you could say such a thing. Is she poor? Not in the sense you imply, but neither is she wealthy. What little she has, she has worked her a$$ off to get. I also know about the "endenturing" you hint at, and officially the USCIS (immigration) frowns, strongly, on the activity. The least little hint of endenturing will disqualify an immigrant visa. I will be happy to point to their website if you are interested.

    I do hope you are not even trying to suggest anything untoward about my marriage to my wife. That would be most uncool.

    If there are plenty of links it should be an easy thing to find support for your position. I didn't being it up, I have no reason to make your argument for you. That is intellectual laziness.

    If Einstein and Tesla (and previously you mentioned Hawking) "state" zero-point energy exists, then you should be able to show where they said it. I'm not gonna prove a negative and say I looked all over hell and gone to prove to you they didn't. A negative cannot be proven, but that does not mean they actually did make any statements to this effect. If they did indeed make any such statements, please show me where in context so I can see for myself. Otherwise, you are asking me to take you at your word, and by your own admission your word on this is shaky at best.

    Good, then you know the process pretty well. You should be able to get your hydrogen power to the masses in short order. I expect to see it within the next year or two. Let me know when I can buy shares of stock.

    Until then, you might want to keep it under wraps...industrial espionage and all...but you know that already.
     

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