Where are we at?

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Tao_Equus, Feb 6, 2009.

  1. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,502
    Likes Received:
    147
    That I got to see. From what little I saw there, I am inclined to agree with the last part of the review:

    So yeah, there is a lot there to digest and provoke thought, but I always take "sky is falling" attitudes with just a teensy bit o' salt.

    I'm not at all trying to suggest there are not some shady deals going on behind the scenes. There are certainly enough that have come to light after the fact in our own country.

    Still, after weighing the options (pardon the pun) and considering the merits and lack of with each economic system capable of long term compatibility on a global scale with practical application, when the smoke clears and the dust settles I still end up favoring capitalism. Not because capitalism is perfect...but because capitalism seems to me the lesser of realistically available evils.

    Good point. I think a lot has to do with the lack of legal protection for intellectual property in China specifically and the East in general, and that is likely rooted in some cultural paradigm I haven't uncovered yet.

    Maybe some extension of "Mandate of Heaven," or something?
     
  2. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's prudent, certainly.

    I've been revising my own attitude towards capitalism lately, but I still have some serious issues with corporate capitalism and what is described as neo-liberal economics. I'd argue that tearing down tariffs and trade barriers so that the multi-national corporations can outcompete homegrown, small-scale enterprises is not at all in the interests of democracy. It certainly serves the corporations, though.

    To me, restricting the debate to capitalism vs. communism or socialism seems to only reduce the complexity of reality. Democratic socialism is possible, as is non-corporate capitalism; both of these options seem better than both the authoritarian central-command economics of communism and the de-regulated "free-market" approach that tilts the playing field grossly in favor of large multi-national corporations.
     
  3. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,502
    Likes Received:
    147
    There is merit to what you say here. Democratic Socialism, for example, is evident all across Europe and increasingly in the states...particularly with the new administration.

    So it is a bit...hypocritical?...to point at the communist hybrid when essentially capitalist democracies have been morphing as well. And while I have nothing to support my suspicions, I can't help but wonder if both are morphing in response to the same catalyst.

    As long as businesses (whether corporate or not) are global in scope, they will continue to pursue economies of scale. If it costs less per unit to make a thousand of something than it does to make a hundred of something, factoring in transportation costs and every other cost control issue, then it only makes sense to aggressively pursue being able to produce a thousand instead of piddling with a hundred here and a hundred there.
     
  4. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which seems to me all the more reason to advocate smaller regional and local economies rather than the global one.
     
  5. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,502
    Likes Received:
    147
    There are other considerations beyond those I mentioned though. If a particular "market" would be saturated with a thousand pieces of whatever because there are only customers to buy a hundred of them, then it makes no sense to make the additional pieces unless you can figure a way to expand your market...like moving beyond national borders or remarqueing your widget to be suitable for a different market.

    When the cost of transport outweighs the benefit of scale, then your mini markets are the way to go. Which is why you don't see gravel being shipped from California to Florida. Yet you do find Florida oranges in California and California oranges in Florida! Logically it makes no sense, yet from a business standpoint it makes perfect sense.
     
  6. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2008
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I think those who fled China then, are still kind of on the run and live in places like the US.. just to make this a little more of a thing you can relate to.


    The people we see from China are from well off families, relative to standards in China. They are like millionaires when they go back home but may be average when they live here. Yes, and I know they work their as*es off to become even richer.


    You`re not implying that China to spend money on beefing up their military and buying up all the oil is more important than public education in a country that can easily afford it and doesn`t have a public educational system are you? I would think that would be one of the first things a country claiming to be communist would do, but no... not in China. I`d have to say even a true communist would threaten their(government) well being.


    well talking about things that are more recent, my godmothers cousin was killed for spreading Christianity in China.. and you don`t know how angry she is.


    TK
     
  7. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,502
    Likes Received:
    147
    Actually, according to Frontline, the leaders were rounded up and imprisoned. Political dissent is still very much frowned upon in China, and from a Western perspective that is something we feel they need to improve upon. Like you said, that is the government...no reflection on the people.

    I fail to see your point. So what? Do we need to compare with the US, or perhaps some other first world nation? Would we be more equitable to compare with a thrid world nation? What is the cost of tea in Brazil?

    My wife has 30 years in the garment industry. She was a floor manager at the factory before it closed. Comparably in the states she should be worth at least 50K a year...even more in a union shop, *if* there were still factories in the states making garments. As it is she is an extremely talented seamstress who managed to pull in only a sizable fraction of that here. So if you are somehow implying it is criminal to be a middle class working stiff, I don't get it. :confused:

    Now, if you want to talk about mud huts and dirt floors and rotten teeth and every other evil of abject poverty, I can talk pretty intimately of that as well if you like. Most people don't want to hear it. I can personally take you places you won't believe your eyes...here in the states. I grew up dirt poor without two nickles to rub together. I've struggled all my adult life to get away from all that.

    So China has poor people...so does every other nation in the world. Even the first world nations have not eradicated poverty...so pointing a finger at China in this regard is pretty senseless.

    If I'm implying anything, I'm implying that I am not in a position to make command decisions that affect a billion and a half people directly. As much as I try to learn and keep up with current affairs around the globe, like everybody else I am hamstrung by what it is "they" want us to know, what managed to slip through, what is allowed to slip through to appear as though it is real, apathy, and ignorance. For one, my mind can only handle so much. For two, sorting through it all is a challenge in itself. For three, some days it is so overwhelming the best tack for me is to sit back and let it go on by. A person can drive themselves insane trying to second guess every little nuance.

    I trust that the Chinese government has the best interests of the Chinese people at heart. I trust that if they did not have the best interests of the people at heart, the people would rise up and instill a new "Mandate of Heaven." Just as I trust the same for the United States. If I am going to focus on singular issues at the expense of the whole it shows my lack of understanding. Do I agree with our current administration? Not yet, it is too early to tell, but already I see things that concern me. But even if I disagree, I still believe their hearts are ruling their heads and pointing them to do what they feel is best for the nation. I can say pretty much the same of the former administration...there were things I agreed with, there were things I disagreed with, but overall I really do think they did what they felt was best for the nation considering the times and places we found ourselves in.

    Yes, proselyzing in China is a risky business. It is officially an atheist state. There are a handful of officially sanctioned Christian churches, probably for show. Condoleeza Rice on one of her more recent trips to Beijing made a point of stopping at one and participating in a service as a show of support. I understand religious freedom to be a point of contention between the US and China. But let's keep some perspective. Christians tend to get a little militant and insistant in their evangelizing...and it can lead to things like what happened to your uncle. It is not a typical Christian attitude to live and let live, or recognize that other faith paths may hold merit. In my opinion, that is to their detriment, on many levels. It must be considered that most cultures are quite fine and happy just the way they are. China is an ancient culture, far older than Christianity. To Chinese eyes, their ways are not broken and do not need fixing. Christians need to learn to respect that.

    I'm sorry for your godmother's loss. Your uncle knew the risks, and has received his reward. He has gone home to be with the Lord he served.
     
  8. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2008
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    0
    I`ve actually met people who fled. He seems to have been well taken care of by our people, at least the guy I met was in fine condition.


    Well I`m trying to tell you for the third time that one needs to come from a wealthy family to even get an education in China. And most of China is illiterate because of that, and the Chinese we see are not illiterate, again because they are not poor like the 80% rest. The Chinese who travel frequently from the mainland are freakin rich, relative to Chinese standards.

    The richer they are, they are closer to the Communist party, btw.


    Last time the Chinese did that, they got trampled over by tanks. You completely missed my point (as well as theirs).

    I can`t really recall any government that ever operated in the best interests of the public, maybe when America started. And the Chinese government definitely does not have the majority Chinese`s interests at heart. Or they`d have a public educational system by now, rather than buying up all the oil. I`d say China is like France when it was just minutes from the French revolution.


    My godmother`s cousin is now a Roman Catholic Saint. Word of advice, maybe you might want to "leave America".



    TK
     
  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,502
    Likes Received:
    147
    It's certainly possible there were people who fled, I'm not doubting that.

    Patriotism is not limited to the Chinese. And yes, if one is going to travel *frequently* then it requires sums of money to do so. I paid for my trip to
    China, and I paid for my wife's singular (one time) trip here. Neither she nor I are frequent flyers. So your presumption is still a bit off.

    That is your point of view.

    Which is a high honor, is it not? Is it no comfort knowing he is home with the Father in heaven? That's where I want to go when the time comes.

    I sense this is enough said to this on my part. It is apparently still a raw issue, and for that I apologize.
     

Share This Page