Losing my religion, or trading it in for something else?

I know from personal experience that it is unpleasant but I do believe you are psychologically in a good and necessary place. Consider from the Gospel of Thomas

I'm not sure that unpleasant is the correct word, but rather humbled in that I feel like I'm on the right path, yet a little wary of letting go of what I have held on to for so long. It's like I'm in a sinking boat, so I'm tossing out all the baggage in order to keep my buoyancy, so I might reach dry land. The problem is deciding what to toss, and what to keep. Even so, I somehow know that I will reach the other side safely. It's an really odd sensation, actually. I kinda like it, lol!



You've now become troubled. The old doesn't satisfy anymore and the new hasn't come. I know how awkward this is. At some point you may become astonished at a new direction being offered to help. It was known in the past as "metnaoia."
See above, and you will understand how I feel I think.

GK
 
I'm not sure that unpleasant is the correct word, but rather humbled in that I feel like I'm on the right path, yet a little wary of letting go of what I have held on to for so long. It's like I'm in a sinking boat, so I'm tossing out all the baggage in order to keep my buoyancy, so I might reach dry land. The problem is deciding what to toss, and what to keep. Even so, I somehow know that I will reach the other side safely. It's an really odd sensation, actually. I kinda like it, lol!



See above, and you will understand how I feel I think.

GK

hold on to what is true, I mean really hold on to it and dont let it go, as for everything else keep an open mind.

and be vigilant remember the devil is a great deceiver if he cant have you one way he have you another !

anyway that my advice to myself at the moment, hopefully its useful to you also.

let me elaborate a little

I have been a Christian for a little over a year now, but about 4 weeks ago I got really wacked by the Holy Spirit and God has healed me of all this emotional pain that I have been carrying, but since then my faith has been weak, not in God but in the Bible and doctrine.
 
I'm not sure that unpleasant is the correct word, but rather humbled in that I feel like I'm on the right path, yet a little wary of letting go of what I have held on to for so long. It's like I'm in a sinking boat, so I'm tossing out all the baggage in order to keep my buoyancy, so I might reach dry land. The problem is deciding what to toss, and what to keep. Even so, I somehow know that I will reach the other side safely. It's an really odd sensation, actually. I kinda like it, lol!



See above, and you will understand how I feel I think.

GK

That is what I mean by uncomfortable. It is the problem of the rich man in the bible as in Mark 10

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!" 24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

We want to choose our attachments but the problem itself is the hold of attachment on us rather than choice of attachments. We can only give so much so the boat begins to sink. This is why we need help from above.
 
hold on to what is true, I mean really hold on to it and dont let it go, as for everything else keep an open mind.

and be vigilant remember the devil is a great deceiver if he cant have you one way he have you another !

anyway that my advice to myself at the moment, hopefully its useful to you also.

let me elaborate a little

I have been a Christian for a little over a year now, but about 4 weeks ago I got really wacked by the Holy Spirit and God has healed me of all this emotional pain that I have been carrying, but since then my faith has been weak, not in God but in the Bible and doctrine.

I think I need to hold on to my faith, and my hope, and love GTG. The rest I'm not sure of. I do know what you mean, tho. I mean about faith in scripture and doctrine being weak. I think this is part of the journey, bro. Sometimes we have to just trust in Him to get us through, and leave the rest at His feet.

GK
 
That is what I mean by uncomfortable. It is the problem of the rich man in the bible as in Mark 10



We want to choose our attachments but the problem itself is the hold of attachment on us rather than choice of attachments. We can only give so much so the boat begins to sink. This is why we need help from above.

Good insight, Nick. Maybe I just need to give it all away, and completely lose/find myself in Him. I think I need to keep my faith, and my hope, and Love tho Nick. Perhaps the rest is baggage that can be replaced in the end?

GK
 
Gatekeeper said:
All because I don't view jesus to be G-d on earth. I certaily believe Him to be G-ds son, and that He rose the third day, and that our hope for glory is Christ in us, but many wish to bludgeon me with doctrine alone, and their interpretation of.

Fair enough. I don't think trying to twist your head around trying to figure out the Trinity is necessarily a requirement anyhow. I was once a member of an Apostolic church, who are oneness Pentacostalists, who told me I had to believe that Jesus was all three: Father Son, and Holy Spirit in order to be saved. That just confused me more than the Trinity did. Much to my delight, I found this scripture:

"Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." - John 14:11

I think I'll go for the "or else" part.

We all can't be right, so I choose to focus on that which I have realized to be true through experience, and that is the love G-d has for me, and every other person on this earth.

Thanks for your post, Dondi - I've always respected your insightfulness. I hope you can see where I am comming from, though.

I'm for that! And yes, I do see where you are coming from.
 
Fair enough. I don't think trying to twist your head around trying to figure out the Trinity is necessarily a requirement anyhow. I was once a member of an Apostolic church, who are oneness Pentacostalists, who told me I had to believe that Jesus was all three: Father Son, and Holy Spirit in order to be saved. That just confused me more than the Trinity did. Much to my delight, I found this scripture:

"Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." - John 14:11

I think I'll go for the "or else" part.



I'm for that! And yes, I do see where you are coming from.

I never saw His works, but feel I have experienced Him working in me, and on me as a person. I can certainly believe that the father dwelled in Him as Spirit, but not His entire being. You cannot after all pour the entire ocean into a coffee cup, ya know? I can also see where He was in the father, at least in His father will. They were one in purpose and thought, so I can certainly believe on all accounts concerning the passage you quoted. At least in my own unique way lol. :p

Thanks Dondi,

GK
 
I never saw His works, but feel I have experienced Him working in me, and on me as a person.

Actually, that is the kind of works I'm talking about. Every miracle Jesus did was driven by compassion, which we ought to emulate:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." - John 14:12

"...Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40

I can certainly believe that the father dwelled in Him as Spirit, but not His entire being. You cannot after all pour the entire ocean into a coffee cup, ya know? I can also see where He was in the father, at least in His father will. They were one in purpose and thought, so I can certainly believe on all accounts concerning the passage you quoted. At least in my own unique way lol. :p

Thanks Dondi,

GK

Have you read my explanation of the Trinity?
 
Actually, that is the kind of works I'm talking about. Every miracle Jesus did was driven by compassion, which we ought to emulate:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." - John 14:12

"...Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40



Have you read my explanation of the Trinity?

Actually I have'nt. Perhaps you could lead me to that definition. I'll look it over, and see if it resonates, cool?

GK
 
Actually I have'nt. Perhaps you could lead me to that definition. I'll look it over, and see if it resonates, cool?

GK

I was trying to find the thread that I posted it in, but wasn't able to. Fortunately, I saved it in a file on my computer. I'll PM it for you, rather than taking up space here. If you have specifics, we can pick it up here.
 
I was trying to find the thread that I posted it in, but wasn't able to. Fortunately, I saved it in a file on my computer. I'll PM it for you, rather than taking up space here. If you have specifics, we can pick it up here.

Sounds good, Dondi ...
 
I have realized that my actions and attitudes effects the whole of society in one way or another. When I seek peace, and when I am mindful of my attitude and actions, I always seem to fair better then when I'm not. I try to show a degree of love for all people. I do so because I know we are all pretty much the same. We all have our hardships, we all make mistakes, we all suffer, and we are all in this life together.

Can anyone else relate?

GK
I thought the above was interesting. I’ve found it rare that believers will acknowledge an important component of religious faith: that the faith exaggerates the psychological concept of in-group/out-group bias.

Ultimately, Gatekeeper, If you are comforted by your religious beliefs then there is nothing more to say except that your belief being unsupported and lacking in demonstration may mean you’re living an illusion. I’ve always maintained, I could be wrong, there could be a god. But the answer is exactly the same. Actively be a participant in making this the kind of world that minimizes human suffering. Saying, "it’s impossible" or "man can never achieve that" is clearly surrendering before you even begin. Would it be easy to do? No. Is it possible? Yeah. Of course it is.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. The answer again is the same -- let's say you spend your entire life making it as good a world as you can -- is your life somehow wasted if there is no god? Does it count against you? No, it doesn't.

You, all of us, can contribute to making the world better. Do you really need an eternal reward to invest a few decades to the human condition? Does it all "matter in the end"? No, but it does matter while you're here. And that's good enough. Actually, science avoids this question altogether. There is no real atheist asserted philosophy, all of atheism tends to be a critique of theist assertions. Even the Big Bang doesn't address god issues. Maybe god is behind the Big Bang, who knows? Atheism is really a philosophical rejection of the assertions of theism as undemonstrated and fallacious, nothing more.

The entire god question is a pretty important one I'd say. For me, it's not something to just roll over and believe because if you truly dig deep into what allows you to believe, you will find there is no clear reason to believe as you do-- the differing paradigms out there do not make a single case that rises above the others. In other words, there is no reason to believe Christianity over Islam over Buddhism over Judaism over Hinduism.

But none of them make the absolute case of authority -- hence, I select the default position of atheism until such time as there is a clear defining reason to select one over the other.

But the struggle over the spiritual questions -- in fact, pondering all great mysteries -- is the real thing that sets us above the animals. Perhaps in the end, sentient life is the universe's way of trying to understand itself. But I consider that a noble struggle, and don't diminish it in any way. I applaud it and it makes me feel good about the human condition. And hell, what is more courageous than saying, "I want to know the truth?" (wherever it leads).
 
I thought the above was interesting. I’ve found it rare that believers will acknowledge an important component of religious faith: that the faith exaggerates the psychological concept of in-group/out-group bias.

Ultimately, Gatekeeper, If you are comforted by your religious beliefs then there is nothing more to say except that your belief being unsupported and lacking in demonstration may mean you’re living an illusion. I’ve always maintained, I could be wrong, there could be a god. But the answer is exactly the same. Actively be a participant in making this the kind of world that minimizes human suffering. Saying, "it’s impossible" or "man can never achieve that" is clearly surrendering before you even begin. Would it be easy to do? No. Is it possible? Yeah. Of course it is.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. The answer again is the same -- let's say you spend your entire life making it as good a world as you can -- is your life somehow wasted if there is no god? Does it count against you? No, it doesn't.

You, all of us, can contribute to making the world better. Do you really need an eternal reward to invest a few decades to the human condition? Does it all "matter in the end"? No, but it does matter while you're here. And that's good enough. Actually, science avoids this question altogether. There is no real atheist asserted philosophy, all of atheism tends to be a critique of theist assertions. Even the Big Bang doesn't address god issues. Maybe god is behind the Big Bang, who knows? Atheism is really a philosophical rejection of the assertions of theism as undemonstrated and fallacious, nothing more.

The entire god question is a pretty important one I'd say. For me, it's not something to just roll over and believe because if you truly dig deep into what allows you to believe, you will find there is no clear reason to believe as you do-- the differing paradigms out there do not make a single case that rises above the others. In other words, there is no reason to believe Christianity over Islam over Buddhism over Judaism over Hinduism.

But none of them make the absolute case of authority -- hence, I select the default position of atheism until such time as there is a clear defining reason to select one over the other.

But the struggle over the spiritual questions -- in fact, pondering all great mysteries -- is the real thing that sets us above the animals. Perhaps in the end, sentient life is the universe's way of trying to understand itself. But I consider that a noble struggle, and don't diminish it in any way. I applaud it and it makes me feel good about the human condition. And hell, what is more courageous than saying, "I want to know the truth?" (wherever it leads).

Great thoughts, Resigned. No, it makes no difference whether there is an after life, or not. What we have is today, and what we do with it. I say strive to change the world for the better, so that all can benefit from our endeavors. Like I said, my actions and attitude effect the whole of humanity, as do yours.

I find comfort in the concept of G-d, but I also realize that for some that concept is not part of their comfort processes. This is fine, imo. If you find comfort by some other means than holding belief in a Creator, then more power to ya. I myself cannot.

Blessings

GK
 
The entire god question is a pretty important one I'd say. For me, it's not something to just roll over and believe because if you truly dig deep into what allows you to believe, you will find there is no clear reason to believe as you do-- the differing paradigms out there do not make a single case that rises above the others. In other words, there is no reason to believe Christianity over Islam over Buddhism over Judaism over Hinduism.

But none of them make the absolute case of authority -- hence, I select the default position of atheism until such time as there is a clear defining reason to select one over the other.

But the struggle over the spiritual questions -- in fact, pondering all great mysteries -- is the real thing that sets us above the animals. Perhaps in the end, sentient life is the universe's way of trying to understand itself. But I consider that a noble struggle, and don't diminish it in any way. I applaud it and it makes me feel good about the human condition. And hell, what is more courageous than saying, "I want to know the truth?" (wherever it leads).

Yours are some interesting thoughts. I do believe this is the first time I have seen a person self-identifying as atheist appealing to a modified form of Pascal's Wager. ;)
 
Resigned

The entire god question is a pretty important one I'd say. For me, it's not something to just roll over and believe because if you truly dig deep into what allows you to believe, you will find there is no clear reason to believe as you do-- the differing paradigms out there do not make a single case that rises above the others. In other words, there is no reason to believe Christianity over Islam over Buddhism over Judaism over Hinduism.

But none of them make the absolute case of authority -- hence, I select the default position of atheism until such time as there is a clear defining reason to select one over the other.

But the struggle over the spiritual questions -- in fact, pondering all great mysteries -- is the real thing that sets us above the animals. Perhaps in the end, sentient life is the universe's way of trying to understand itself. But I consider that a noble struggle, and don't diminish it in any way. I applaud it and it makes me feel good about the human condition. And hell, what is more courageous than saying, "I want to know the truth?" (wherever it leads).

You may WANT to know, but do you NEED to understand sufficiently to sacrifice your preconceptions?

Do you "need" as Simone Weil did?
"To believe in God is not a decision we can make. All we can do is decide not to give our love to false gods. In the first place, we can decide not to believe that the future contains for us an all-sufficient good. The future is made of the same stuff as the present....

"...It is not for man to seek, or even to believe in God. He has only to refuse to believe in everything that is not God. This refusal does not presuppose belief. It is enough to recognize, what is obvious to any mind, that all the goods of this world, past, present, or future, real or imaginary, are finite and limited and radically incapable of satisfying the desire which burns perpetually with in us for an infinite and perfect good... It is not a matter of self-questioning or searching. A man has only to persist in his refusal, and one day or another God will come to him."
-- Weil, Simone, ON SCIENCE, NECESSITY, AND THE LOVE OF GOD, edited by Richard Rees, London, Oxford University Press, 1968.- ©

When a person "needs" as did Simone, Atheism as a reflection of the world cannot satisfy the need for "meaning"
If one is hungry,they search for food. A spiritual hunger is the same. The question becomes how to open oneself to receive what opens us to "meaning" rather than hide in escapism?
 
I thought the above was interesting. I’ve found it rare that believers will acknowledge an important component of religious faith: that the faith exaggerates the psychological concept of in-group/out-group bias.

Ultimately, Gatekeeper, If you are comforted by your religious beliefs then there is nothing more to say except that your belief being unsupported and lacking in demonstration may mean you’re living an illusion. I’ve always maintained, I could be wrong, there could be a god. But the answer is exactly the same. Actively be a participant in making this the kind of world that minimizes human suffering. Saying, "it’s impossible" or "man can never achieve that" is clearly surrendering before you even begin. Would it be easy to do? No. Is it possible? Yeah. Of course it is.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. The answer again is the same -- let's say you spend your entire life making it as good a world as you can -- is your life somehow wasted if there is no god? Does it count against you? No, it doesn't.

You, all of us, can contribute to making the world better. Do you really need an eternal reward to invest a few decades to the human condition? Does it all "matter in the end"? No, but it does matter while you're here. And that's good enough. Actually, science avoids this question altogether. There is no real atheist asserted philosophy, all of atheism tends to be a critique of theist assertions. Even the Big Bang doesn't address god issues. Maybe god is behind the Big Bang, who knows? Atheism is really a philosophical rejection of the assertions of theism as undemonstrated and fallacious, nothing more.

The entire god question is a pretty important one I'd say. For me, it's not something to just roll over and believe because if you truly dig deep into what allows you to believe, you will find there is no clear reason to believe as you do-- the differing paradigms out there do not make a single case that rises above the others. In other words, there is no reason to believe Christianity over Islam over Buddhism over Judaism over Hinduism.

But none of them make the absolute case of authority -- hence, I select the default position of atheism until such time as there is a clear defining reason to select one over the other.

But the struggle over the spiritual questions -- in fact, pondering all great mysteries -- is the real thing that sets us above the animals. Perhaps in the end, sentient life is the universe's way of trying to understand itself. But I consider that a noble struggle, and don't diminish it in any way. I applaud it and it makes me feel good about the human condition. And hell, what is more courageous than saying, "I want to know the truth?" (wherever it leads).
You might enjoy this, Resigned: Kalama Sutta
 
Yours are some interesting thoughts. I do believe this is the first time I have seen a person self-identifying as atheist appealing to a modified form of Pascal's Wager. ;)
You should explore Pascal's Wager. I made to no appeals to same, modified or not.
 
Religion is kinda a term for "hobby" lol... I feel, you see many with their "religion(s)" I think the biggest growing religion for now is TV/Media... Many devout followers sit faithfull in awe of their god some for over 8 hours a day.... Just sat there, most cases it is even a family event the kids are all there around the shrine to worship it too, then you get those that split of into splinter cells... Causes wars and chaos..... NO SPORTS CHANNEL!! NO! I WANT THE TWINKIES AND THE TELLYTUBBIES!! WELL I WANT THE MUSIC CHANNEL!!.... Then we splinter off and make smaller shrines, bedrooms kitchens and we put the idol of our god there and sit their worshipping it :D This is the most popular modern religion, but in time we will change again :)
 
I have...hence my comment earlier. ;)
The underlying theme of Pascal's Wager is to hedge your bet (wager) that if there is a god(s), then token concessions to that belief may earn you rewards.

How do you relate any of that to my post?
 
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