Is the Christian God the same as the Muslim God?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by citizenzen, Mar 2, 2009.

  1. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

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    ditto :)

    Salaam

    ps; God is indeed omnipresent, but in knowledge only, i.e, He sees Hears and has full power and control over everything, thus there are two ways we can consider God to be omnipresent; 1 by thinking that He is everywhere but not delve into 'how' He is everywhere, and 2, the aforementioned way

    Salam
     
  2. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Isn't that, in itself, a conceptualization? :confused:
     
  3. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    That is one way of putting it. Some wounds do not heal by themselves.
     
  4. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

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    no, as we allways say that God is above whatever can come to our minds

    Here is some more information about the 'description' of God and hopefully that will help in understanding divine transcendence:

    1. Allah is One, without any partners.
    2. There is nothing like Him.
    4. There is no god other than Him.
    8. No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can comprehend Him.
    9. He is different from any created being.
    10. He is living and never dies and is eternally active and never sleeps.

    13. He has always existed together with His attributes since before creation. Bringing creation into existence did not add anything to His attributes that was not already there. As He was, together with His attributes, in pre-eternity, so He will remain throughout endless time. ... 17. This is because He has the power to do everything, everything is dependent on Him, everything is easy for Him, and He does not need anything. "There is nothing like Him, yet He is the Hearer, the Seer." (al-Shura 42:11)

    26. He is Exalted beyond having opposites or equals.

    33. The Qur'an is the word of Allah. It came from Him as speech without it being possible to say how [i.e without modality]. ... It is not created as is the speech of human beings, ...it is the speech of the Creator of mankind and ... it is totally unlike the speech of mankind.

    34. ... He, in His attributes, is not like human beings [in any way].

    35. The Seeing of Allah by the People of the Garden is true, without their vision being all-encompassing and without the manner of their vision being known. As the Book of our Lord has expressed it: "Faces on that Day radiant, looking at their Lord." (al-Qiyama 75:22-3) The explanation of this is as Allah knows and wills. Everything that has come down to us about this from the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in authentic traditions, is as he said and means what he intended. We do not delve into that, trying to interpret it according to our own opinions or letting our imaginations have free rein.

    37. Belief of a man in the seeing of Allah by the People of the Garden is not correct if he imagines what it is like or interprets it according to his own understanding, since the interpretation of this seeing or indeed, the meaning of any of the subtle phenomena which are in the realm of Lordship, is by avoiding its interpretation and strictly adhering to the submission.

    This is the religion of Muslims. Anyone who does not guard himself against negating the attributes of Allah, or likening Allah to something else, has gone astray and has failed to understand Allah's glory, because our Lord, the Glorified and the Exalted, can only possibly be described in terms of oneness and absolute singularity and no creation is in any way like Him.

    38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.

    51. He encompasses and transcends all things, and what He has created is incapable of encompassing Him.

    Tahawi Beliefs of Ahl al-Sunna
     
  5. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

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    ps: I think you may be confusing the definition meant here of 'conceptualisation'; what is meant here, is not to limit God within human thoughts, thus to regard God as far above any thought that could ever come to mind is not to conceputualise him in this sense; it does not mean that we cannot 'think' about God, or exalt His greatness, or to try understand divine transcendence

    God has attributes, but without modality [i.e, they are not like human attributes, or like anything we can ever imagine] so for example, when we say that one of Gods attributes is that He is the Most Mercifull, then we know what this means in terms of things such as how easily God can forgive us if we turn to Him in sincere repentence, but the attribute itself which is an attribute of the essense of God is unknowable in terms of how it is, such as we know that 'mercy' in humans is in the form of emotive feelings, etc, but Gods attributes is totally unlike that of humans

    here is a link that lists Gods attributes:

    99 Attributes of Allah SWT
     
  6. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    But that's precisely what I meant: It's the simple things in which there is irreconcilable disagreement. The premise of Islam as I understand it is that the Koran is the final version of scriptures as recited by Mohammed; this is something that I don't believe. Therefore, if I don't believe in the Koran, how will I ever find essential common ground with a Koran-believing Muslim? The premise of my beliefs is that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the messiah, and the one through whom forgiveness of sins is possible. If someone else doesn't believe in these things, how are we ever going to find essential common ground.

    My question, though, is why is it necessary for us to find this common ground, at the risk of making it superficial? Why not instead accept our differences? Why not accept the fact that our beliefs, though similar at the surface level, are irreconcilably different, and simply come to grips with the inevitable fact that not everybody is the same?

    I have.
     
  7. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    It's true. I myself have already conquered Boardwalk and Park Place, and have set my sights on Atlantic Avenue. I plan to build churches instead of hotels, replace the jail with purgatory, and take 10% of the $200 you get for passing GO-- all because I'm a Christian!

    ;)
     
  8. marcoav

    marcoav Purity is the key

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    Hi. I truly feel honored with this current opportunity of becoming acquainted with the Islam tenets through the information you have provided. Tank you for sharing. In fact, the strength of Tahawi Beliefs of Ahl al-Sunna reinforces my view that, among all the previous religions given by God (in His Creating activity) to the various evolving groups of people from East to Middle East, the religion of Islam is the highest and perfected Message from the Great Hierarch, in the Triune Godhead, Who is the Activity of the Creation, that is, the Nature's HOLY creative energy/SPIRIT in action ("Allah, He who has the Godhood which is the power to create the entities") within the World of God.

    Nontheless, the Activity of God, Allah/Yahweh -- The Holy -- in the Abrahamic religions, the Force performing the orderly[cosmos] Creation cannot act without a plan being previously designed for the future Creation by the Wisdom of God, Christ [The Son, the Logos], and both the third and second aspects of God (Activity and Wisdom, respectively) wouldn't be possible without the initial Will of God, The Father ["not mine, but Thy Will"], to Create.

    Yours, in Service.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2009
  9. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    ok. But how does this influence your worship of the Father? Or does it?

    If youe belief regarding the status of the Koran doesn't influence your relationship with the Heavenly Father, why would it matter?

    Marsh, seriously, what did Jesus teach us? He taught us to pray to the Father and ask the Father for His blessings, which is what all true worshipers do: "Our Father who art in Heaven... forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." (Luke 11:4). Jesus specifically taught us that we can expect G-d to forgive us if we forgive others: "Forgive, and you shall be forgiven." (Luke 6:37; see also John 20:23) The implication here is obvious: We control of the effectiveness of the divine influence in our lives. Which makes perfect sense. What good is grace unless we to receive it? Faith opens the spiritual heart to healing.

    This is a very basic concept that is developed in all three Abrahamic traditions: G-d wants a loving relationship with His children - with all of them. The idea of a personal G-d is present in all three Abrahamic traditions, which are sometimes referred to as "relational" religions. The evolving relationship includes a process of the person drawing ever closer to the Divine through dialogue. Starting with the Old Testament, we see it's going to mean a turning back to G-d, that is, recognizing and giving up sin in order to become reconciled. Consider Daniel 9:3-6
    So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with Him.... I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed: "O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands, we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws.
    In the New Testament we also see the same theme building a relationship and drawing closer through reconciliation. Confession is an opportunity to develop the divinity within by accepting the transformative power of Grace. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9). There's no way to benefit from Grace unless you ask for it, and penitence is actually a way of asking. Note: Jesus specifically linked repentance to the immediacy of the Kingdom (See Mark 1:14-15).

    In Islam, commitment is reflected in a willingness to repent: "Except those who repent and amend and hold fast to Allah and are sincere in their religion to Allah, these are with the believers, and Allah will grant the believers a mighty reward." (The Women, 4.146) Moreover, G-d extends mercy abundantly to those "who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth)." (The Cow 2.160) Very much like the link Jesus made between repentance to the immanence of the Kingdom, the Koran reads: "Those who repent and believe and do good shall enter the garden." (Marium 19.60)

    Btw, the Koran is very clear that this principle applies to Jews and Christians. The condition specified for forgiveness and access to the Heavenly afterlife is the same as it ever was: faithfulness, that is, love of G-d and observing His standards:
    Those who believe (in the Koran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians - any who believe in (their L-rd) and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Cow 2:62) (see also Koran 5.65).

    Note that the passage specifically states that it is enough to follow the Bible. there is no reason to think a Koran-believing Muslim would require you to agree on the Koran's stature. It's right there in the very first verse!

    Faith opens the spiritual heart to healing and creates a channel for dialogue. It's there in all three Abrahamic traditions, and this is probably the clearest statement I've found of it: "True worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." (John 4:23) Do you really think the Heavenly Father cares whether the person is a Christian, Jew, or Muslim?

    To my way of thinking, worship is not a doctrinal matter at all. It has nothing to do with intellectual assent. Paul doesn't think so either: "Offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship." (Romans 12:1-2)

    I hope this shows you something aboutessential common ground. The Abrahamic legacy is surprisingly consistent on essential matters.
     
  10. marcoav

    marcoav Purity is the key

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    A most beautiful clarification-lesson you provide unto us, dear Netti-Netti. Your message sounds as a sublime poem. Thank you. Blessed be.

    Roads to God

    All roads that lead to God are good;
    What matters it, your faith or mine
    Both centre at the goal divine
    Of Love's eternal brotherhood.
    The kindly life in house or street;
    The life of prayer, the mystic rite;
    The student's search for truth and light
    These paths at one great function meet.
    What matters that one found his Christ
    In rising sun or burning fire,
    If faith within him did not tire
    His longing for the truth sufficed.
    A thousand creeds have come and gone;
    But what is that to you or me?
    Creeds are but branches of a tree-
    The root of love lives on and on.
    Though branch by branch proves withered wood
    The root is warm with precious wine:
    Then keep your faith and leave me mine;
    All roads that lead to God are good.

    --Ella Wheeler Wilcox (1850-1919)
     
  11. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    I notice it specifically does not say that following the Bible is enough. That cannot be the interpretation of the passage. The same words are repeated in 6:69, but the verse previous to it says "...And surely that which has been revealed to thee from the Lord will make many of them increase in inordinacy and disbelief; so grieve no for the disbelieving people." Which is first of all saying that Islam rather than being compatible with, will cause disbelief amongst other Abrahamic religions.


    • Modern Jews & Allāh:
      "Say: Shall I inform you of those worse than this in retribution from Allāh? They are those whom Allāh has cursed and upon whom He brought His wrath and of whom He made apes and swine, and who serve the devil."(5:60)
      Allah directly says Judaism will always attempt to undermine Islam. This is therefore an article of fact to Muslims. :
      "Many of the people of the Book wish that they could turn you back into disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from themselves, after truth has become manifest to them. But pardon and forgive, till Allāh bring about His command. Surely Allāh is Possessor of power over these things."(2:109)

    • All post-Islamic Christians are considered unbelievers. "Certainly they disbelieve who say: Allāh, He is the Messiah, son of Mary. And the Messiah said: O Children of Israel, serve Allāh, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allāh, Allāh has forbidden to him the Garden and his abode is the Fire. And for the wrongdoers there will be no helpers."(5:72)

    • Friendship between the religions is also not possible:
      "O you who believe, take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other. And whoever amongst you takes them for friends he is indeed one of them. Surely Allāh guides not the unjust people. But thou seest those in whose hearts is a disease, hastening towards them, saying: We fear lest a calamity should befall us. Maybe Allāh will bring the victory or a commandment from Himself, so they will regret what they hid in their souls"(5:51-52)


    Face facts.
     
  12. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    My relationship with Jesus Christ is my worship, and this is something that one cannot understand if one has not come to Christ. It is not a question about doctrine; it is a question about my relationship with God. You have done an excellent job of picking out Bible quotations that seem to indicate that Christianity boils down to a few transferable precepts and thus is compatible with other Abrahamic religions, but your post mostly disregards the centre of my faith, which is Christ. Yes, Jesus taught us to worship and to pray, but he taught much more than just that, friend. And by the tone of the seriously that you included in that sentence, it seems to me that you see no further significance in Jesus' ministry. This makes sense when one comes into the conversation believing that Jesus is a prophet, and not the Son of God.

    I don't believe that God sorts us based on our religions; that's not the kind of Christian that I am. However, I do believe that God is offering mankind salvation through and only through Jesus Christ. Is that a place where we can find common ground, Netti?
     
  13. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    Where does Jesus say to worship him?
     
  14. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    And the fact is:

    Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and Judgement day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. 2:62


    :)
     
  15. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    He didnt have to say it.. They did it from His birth and forward. Go to any online bible put in search perimeters the word worship and limit it to the new testament and you will see how often it was done. He never once told anyone to stop even though its a commandment that you only worship God..
     
  16. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    There was more than one term for "worship" that was translated generically in a way that denoted respect/reverence/esteem.

    He repeatedly made a point of alerting us to the possibility of worshiping him when we should worship the Father. Close to 20 times. You are overlooking much of what he said.
     
  17. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    First of all, the passage is not about Jews - modern or otherwise. If you check the verse directly above it, you'll see the subject is the "Followers of the Book" who have become an embarrassment to their tradition. That little swipe (attributing antisemitic positions to Islam) is a serious misrepresentation of the scripture, my friend.

    It's not about all Jews and it's not about all Christians either. The passage in question is not even a commentary on religious affiliation. You're looking at a description of what it is to be "cursed by disbelief." The passage is about sinners and hypocrites, people who have lost their way. Now they are "far from the right path," and they "hasten in sin and exceed the limits" (5.62). To "hasten in sin" alludes to the apprehension of wrong thinking and the desperate quality of spiritual abjection. Existentially, you are at the mercy of inertial tendencies if you fail to exercise judgment in keeping with the standards for which you become responsible as a result of Revelation.

    These are not complicated concepts. They are very basic Biblical ideas. The passage you quoted is in line with the Bible's Prophetic Tradition, which implies a vantage point for cultural criticism concerning where people who should know better - i.e., people who were given Divine Guidance but still they violate the standard to which they are accountable. It's a vantage point of faith and devotion.

    The passage in question is urging Muslims not to be like someone who has forgotten the L-rd and, as a result has, voided the effectiveness of the L-rd presence in their lives in disobedience. The sinners are contrasted with those who are faithful and obedient. The same simple compare/contrast approach is seen in The Cow 2:61-2:62.

    The Prophetic Tradition is old. Here's an example from Daniel: "We have not obeyed the LORD our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets." The issue is ignoring that which has been revealed: "We have not listened to your servants the prophets." Have you read Daniel?

    Do you have a general sense of the Prophetic Tradition? Abraham and Moses, among others, called for purity of religion and pointed out the people's contradictions and failings, underscoring the need for them to get their act together. The Prophets were moralists and they were also critics of pre-existing doctrine (e.g. Hosea, the 8th century BC prophet).

    The Prophetic Tradition was old when Jesus was on the planet, but it continued well after he was gone. Jesus was concerned about the religious legalists. Paul was concerned about Christian churches that has lost their way. The Prophetic Tradition seems very important to Muslims, who will speak in terms of embellishing themselves with "The Manner of the Prophets." That Tradition is all over the Koran.

    One other thing. Elsewhere, you seemed to agree with Seattlegal when she suggested that 'swine' is a term for hypocrites who mock the spirit of the law by their conduct. Two questions: (1) Why would you have a different interpretation regarding 'swine' in relation to the Biblical passage and another for the Koran when the context, focus, and handling of the subject matter is obviously very similar in content and in style? (2) Why wouldn't the Koran's use of the same term at least prompt you to look a little closer in light of the obvious similarities? :eek::(:eek:

    Ok, so you finally got a response out of me. Even though you've been making rather unusual pronouncements about Islam lately, this may have been the first time you've actually presented something from the Koran. It's disappointing all around the reasons mentioned. A more sincere effort to interpret the Koran is likely to be helpful to us all. Would you reconsider the rest of your misleading post. I think it would be good training for you. Be a champ!

    [​IMG]
     
  18. marcoav

    marcoav Purity is the key

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    Hi. Please forgive my intromission; in the Gospel of John (14:6) we are expressly taught that it is through Christ only that we acquire "salvation".
    However, the Christ comes not as an imposition from the outside (the creed, dogma or any external form of religion), but as a living awareness that grows within the[each] individual: cf., among other passages, Galatians 4:19.
    As it happens when physical death occurs, the journey is always made in the 1st person: "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matthew 16:24; cf. Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23) so that "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out" (Revelation 3:12).

    The requisite to become His disciple:
    *the individual has to "deny himself": sacrifice of the self
    *the individual has to "take up his cross," [daily] and follow Him (cf. Matthew 10:38; Luke 14:27); Christ-Jesus set the example with His own life during His lifetime among men.

    Thus, i believe the Religion of the Christ, unlike previous religions, is a religion solely within each human being - regardless of race, creed or color - requesting the individual to initiate an inner transmutation (change).

    Hope this may help too.
    Yours.
     
  19. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    There is no mention at all of "Salvation" in said passage.

    I encourage you to read carefully.
     
  20. dailogue is the best

    dailogue is the best New member

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    As Muslims we do believe that God/Allah is the creator of this universe, and He is the One who sent all the prophets including Moses, Jesus and Muhamed peace be upon them all. The Torah, the Bible and the Quran are all three holy Books.

    We also believe that the Torah and the Bible had been corrupted, and that's why we find contradiction between the three Books, though they have a lot in common too.

    There are many proofs that the Bible had been corrupted. The following site presents some very new proofs:
    BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | The rival to the Bible

    If the Bible had been corrupted from the real version, how can we then be cling to its teachings and assume them to God?!! It is really a big delimma?!! How can we be very sure to assert that the Christian God is different from the Muslim God!!!!!!!
     

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