Is the Christian God the same as the Muslim God?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by citizenzen, Mar 2, 2009.

  1. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Ok, c0de. It is entirely possible for me to misinterpret these things. Netti says I need to revue the other verses I've posted as well, and I don't mess around with Netti. You are both trying to get me to read the Q'uran. You guys are slick, for now.
     
  2. dailogue is the best

    dailogue is the best New member

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    Facts are absolute, not conditional. How can you consider the above as facts, while God says in another verse:

    [60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

    [60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors."
     
  3. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    I do not mind being corrected about it, and I don't want to mislead. The same way that these two verses only appear to be differing facts and are not, I must ask you take take my post in the same sense. Give me some room to be right. I have not finished. Are you surprised that this was how 5:51-52 seemed to me? You may not know, but my background is absolutist without much back & forth. The idea of balancing statements is new-ish to me.
     
  4. marcoav

    marcoav Purity is the key

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    I appreciate that you have pointed it out. But, please note, dear Netti-Netti, i wrote "salvation" (between "") in my answer to Marsh's comment which employs the same term.

    As far as i see it, the concept "salvation" only exists if in the sense that each individual will ultimately be saved in a future age (γενεά) as he acquires a superior grade of consciousness and Altruism by means of successive rebirths (in the physical world); only then "he shall go no more out" (of the heavenly world).

    In order to achieve that ultimate higher state of becoming alive again after the current status of being dead, Spiritual death (see the parable of the Prodigal Son, also known as the Lost Son), the individual is aided by Christ-Jesus in the process of having the Christ born within (Galatians 4:19), our true Saviour; meaning, each of us is a Christ-in-the-making and Christ is "the way and the truth and the life" that leads the prodigal[lost] sons, mankind as a whole, to the Father: "No one comes to the Father except through me".

    In fact, there are only three religions: one is the Religion of the Holy Spirit (race religions); the next is the Religion of The Son (universal religion); and the last is the Religion of The Father.

    Addendum: please Ask into your inner Self not only "How can these things be?" but also "When shall these things be?"
     
  5. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    sorry,
    nit picking from way back but have to say they are all related inasmuch the 'various' are manifestations of the One, highlighting attributes congenial/traditional to that area/caste/culture but all are ultimately Brahman and all humans are/have atman -what we may call the divine spark within. So they practise henotheism where belief in one g*d in a given context, but acceptance of,and respect to, is given to others. Much like how saints are 'used' as intercessors, or even Jesus and Mary, to help to reach to the 'One'.

    And to say they do not see 'God' in nature is completely false. In fact they do not differentiate spirit/matter hence their religion enjoins them to pursue artha-material gain or success, kama- love or pleasure as well as the ultimate, liberation, moksha. They perform arti rituals every day to ma gange and other natural shrines how 'natural' is that? too pagan?

    And they realise there are many ways -marga- to follow G*d. Dharma or duty [eusebia in greek meaning right relationship or piety] cannot be separated from the varna or caste hierarchy [why many turned to Buddhism, especially the 'untouchables'].

    Vivekanananda who first promulgated Hinduism to the west stated 'he is you yourself' meaning the ishtadeva or chosen deity was a personification of atman-brahman within the devotee, but he was a non-dualist. There are dualist philosophies also hence gurus transmitting knowledge.

    They place great emphasis on shakti or creative energy, the treasure house of the gunas or human qualities, which the west find immodest due to the emphasis on the negation of matter as spirit [though l would be interested in whether shekinah in judaism could be compared/contrasted here].

    So the Christ within, the g*d within, blasphemous to Abrahamic religions? probably muslim.

    unity in diversity, diversity in unity. sorry for digressing...carry on!
     
  6. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    (lol)

    Oh No!! He's on to us!!

    [​IMG]
     
  7. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    You really do have to be very careful when reading the Koran, and be mindful of the dynamic between might and mercy. Even if you can accomplish this, you really can't be sure...
     
  8. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    Thank you nativeastral for putting it so succinctly.

    For those who continue to count words or compare verse, stop toiling and spinning and come join our club.

    It's open to all and the admissions is free.
     
  9. GlorytoGod

    GlorytoGod There is a River

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    Matthew 2:2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”


    Matthew 2:11 “And when they had come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him.”


    Matthew 14:33 “Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, Truly you are the Son of God.”


    Matthew 28:9 “And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, Rejoice! And they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.”


    Matthew 28:17 “And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.”


    John 9:38 “Then he said, ‘Lord, I believe!’ And he worshiped Him.”


    Hebrews 1:6 “But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

    :)
     
  10. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.
    MATTHEW 2;2



    And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it. They also opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. MATTHEW 2;11



    Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.” And they got across and came to land in Gen·nes′a·ret. MATTHEW 14;33
    (notice it says GODS SON not GOD)


    And, look! Jesus met them and said: “Good day!” They approached and caught him by his feet and did obeisance to him. MATTHEW 28;9



    and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted. MATTHEW 28;17

    Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.(OR SIR MASTER”) And he did obeisance to him. JOHN 9;38

    But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
    hebrews 1;6

    Hebrew and Greek Terms. Most Hebrew and Greek words that can denote worship can also be applied to acts other than worship. However, the context determines in what way the respective words are to be understood.


    Does​
    the fact that worship is given to Jesus prove that he is God?


    At Hebrews 1:6, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus, according to the rendering of RS, TEV, KJ, JB, and NAB. NW says “do obeisance to.” At Matthew 14:33, Jesus’ disciples are said to have “worshiped” him, according to RS, TEV, KJ; other translations say that they “showed him reverence” (NAB), “bowed down before him” (JB), “fell at his feet” (NE), “did obeisance to him” (NW).


    The Greek word rendered “worship” is pro·sky·ne′o, which A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716)

    This is the term used at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus; at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus; at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah and at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business; at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.


    At Matthew 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship
    [from pro·sky·ne′o] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.” (At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton​



     
  11. GlorytoGod

    GlorytoGod There is a River

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    Matthew 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying,

    is worth a look there are many different translations of the bible quoted and the the meanings of the words in the greek as well, however notice the the Jehovah's Witnesses mis-interpretation is not there :rolleyes:
     
  12. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

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    Hi marcoav, my pleasure! :)

    That much is indeed true...


    but not this bit, for God is One and has no partners, thus He is not the hierarchy amongst three 'gods' or 'three parts of god'; God has no need for partners for He is infinetely great and independent of everything and can do all things without effort or without anything decreasing from His Kingdom or His powers being debelitated in the slightest; nor can all of creation ever harm God or ever benifit God; God is the supreme and infenetely supreme, thus He remains the One and Only for all of eternity and everything other tham Him is His creation and under His total control;

    this is basically the Message given by all of the Prophets too, such as Moses saying that God is One [first of the 'ten commandments']; there is in the ten commandements too that no image should be associated with God; so when all of the Prophets message is in accordance with the last and final one, then surely something went wrong when it is imagined that Jesus [pbuh] radically changed this message to a polythiestic one; God corrects the distortions of Jesus' [pbuh] real message in the last revelation; the Quran as thus:

    Surah IV, vs. 171: 伀 People of the Book! Commit not excesses in your religion; nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word [i.e God said 'Be' and Jesus was], which He bestowed on Mary, and a [created] Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: for God is One God; Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.

    Surah V, vs. 119: And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?" He (Jesus) will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I have no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

    Vs. 120: "Never said I to them aught except what Thou Didst command me to say, to wit, "Worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

    Surah LXI, Vs. 6: And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an apostle to come after me, whose name shall be "Ahmad". But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "This is evident sorcery!.

    In the Holy Qur'an, Jesus (PBUH) refers to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as "Ahmad". The word "Ahmad" and "Muhammad" both have the same meaning which is "To praise God", derived from the Arabic word "HAMD" meaning "Praise".

    Those who say that the Messiah, son of Maryam, is the third of three are disbelievers. There is no god but One God. (The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 5, Verse 73)

    [the reason why Jesus [pbuh] is reffered to in the Quran as 'the son of Mary' [when in Arabic culture, sons are called by their fathers name, i.e, Muhammad Ibn Abdullah [Muhammad son of Abdullah], is becasue he ahd no father and only has a mother as a parent.]


    Regarding Jesus [pbuh's] miracle birth, God says:

    Surah III, vs. 45: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the one of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.
    Vs. 46: "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity and he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
    Vs. 47: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a Plan, He but saith to it, "Be", and it is!

    [the miracle birth of Jesus [pbuh] without a father, does not in anyway indicate that God is Jesus' father, for to attribute a son to God is an enormity! :eek:; all miracles that Prophets were blessed with is to prove to the people that they were indeed Prophets/Messengers of God; nothing else...; regarding this miracle and others that God granted to Jesus, He says:

    Indeed the likeness of ‘Eesaa (Jesus) before Allaah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" – and he was. [Aal ‘Imraan: 59]

    {The truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt.} [Aal ‘Imraan: 60]



    Allah [swt] quotes Jesus [pbuh] as saying:

    Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers.
    And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur’an 3: 49-51).

    Jesus [pbuh] is and was reffered to as 'the Spirit of Allah' and He was given the powers of healing [by Allah's leave], as Jesus [pbuh] was the embodiment of spirituality, possibly more so than all other Prophets, as [if I remember correctly] he hardly ate, hardly slept, and didn't even have a fixed abode and used to wander around..., thus he hardly had a 'worldly' aspect to him at all; Allah made Jesus [pbuh] thus as that type of spirituality was needed to balance of the desease of extreme materialism that was around at his era; He was given the miracle of healing as at his time, being a physicist and making medicine was the art of the day thus Allah gave Jesus [pbuh] a miracle to top all of that and show that Jesus' miracles were indeed from Allah [Just as Allah granted Moses an apt miracle to prevail all of the 'majic' that was rampant in his age, etc]

    'The 'spirit of Allah' simply means, the spirit belonging to Allah, just as a car belonging to me can be called 'the car of Abdullah' and not meaning ofcourse that the car is part of me.

    Here are some links that show how the Bible itself indicates Jesus being none other than a servant and mere mortal of God, who used to worship God and called people to the worship of God and not himself [and when we take into considration the numerous evident distortions/contradictions in the Bible, then it becomes apperant that any verses that indicate Jesus was divine in any way are fabrications of men or iether misinterpreted]:

    If Jesus was God ... (www.islaam.org.uk)

    Jesus in the Qur'an

    hope that helps

    Peace :)
     
  13. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    The fact that you are asking this question indicates that you don't understand Jesus; he was not the kind to demand glory, but rather to bring glory to God. Jesus is not a thing to be worshipped, no more than God is a thing to be worshipped; God is God, and should no more have to tell us to worship him than he should have to tell us to breathe, yeah? It should just be natural.

    Jesus is the Son of God, and the one to whom all things have been given. It is through Jesus that God can be understood, because Jesus came with God's message and with God's purpose. I believe that understanding God is the path of salvation, because it is only through understanding that there can be love, and through love repentence and forgiveness, and through forgiveness salvation and acceptance. It is through Jesus that I understand God, and hence can worship God fully.
     
  14. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    So according to Koran it is possible for Christians to receive mercy from Allah, but not possible for Muslims to be friends with us.

    :(
     
  15. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    According to me, I can be friends of all youse.

    You guys and gals can cite, count, compare and contrast until the cows come home.

    One God shared by all.

    Peace my friends, seekers of God.
     
  16. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    but did they say you are God ? no they said you are the son of God , they knew just who he was didnt they :)


    In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” matthew16;16
     
  17. GlorytoGod

    GlorytoGod There is a River

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    you seem to have changed the subject of discussion, I presume this is because your theology cant handle it :eek:

    as for the knowledge of who Jesus really is, I believe that this comes as a revelation from God :)

    intellectual knoweledge of scripture is not enough, in fact I would go as far as to say the if one only has an intellectual knoweledge of scripture and no direct revelation from God then all that is left is theology and doctrine all of which are of the devil :eek:
     
  18. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    Marsh, it's interesting to me that you want to settle the matter without reference to Scripture. As though your personal philosophy is sufficient to settle a theological issue.
     
  19. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    I do not know, Marsh. DialogueisBest posted verses 60:8 & 60:9, which seem to be saying something different. C0de does not seem to be saying it, either. Netti insists friendship is doable.

    Seattlegal posted that "You really do have to be very careful when reading the Koran, and be mindful of the dynamic between might and mercy. Even if you can accomplish this, you really can't be sure..." This clarifies, as Quran is different than what Christians are used to. Somewhere on the forum this difference was brought up, but until now the effect was less clear.

    Also, since there has long been warfare betwixt Christians & Muslims, some Quranic verses might be about conflicts. In addition to wars there have been jihads, crusades, pillagings, etc. Nowadays things are relatively calm. Situations today being different, not all the verses may apply to our specific situations.
     
  20. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    Hey Marsh,

    That is a misconception. Did you know that Muslim men are allowed to marry Christians and Jews? That should put to rest this objection. If that is not proof that friendship between Jews and Muslims is permissible, then I do not know what it. However, even some Muslims are confused about this, I do admit. But check this out:

    "Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just." The Quran, 60:8

    It makes it clear that those verses which have been quoted on this thread only refer to those Christian and Jewish tribes which were hostile to the Muslims. During the early days, there were some tribes which broke their treaties with the Muslims and those verses were revealed to address that particular situation, and Muslims were told not to rely on outsiders for political alliances.
     

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