Is the Christian God the same as the Muslim God?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by citizenzen, Mar 2, 2009.

  1. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    Ahhhhh, I see. Well, that makes perfect sense to me. My only knowledge of the Koran is the bits and pieces that I hear on these posts, because I haven't gotten to reading it yet (I plan to, though; hard to participate in discussions without background knowledge).
     
  2. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    I've seen this referred to in the Koran as right guidance.
    Here are some scriptures to consider, in this respect:
    16.98 And when thou recitest the Qur'án, seek refuge in Allah from Satan the outcast.

    99 Lo! he hath no power over those who believe and put trust in their Lord.

    100 His power is only over those who make a friend of him, and those who ascribe partners unto Him (Allah).

    101 And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

    102 Say: The holy Spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

    --------------------

    17.45 And when thou recitest the Qur'án we place between thee and those who believe not in the Hereafter a hidden barrier;

    46 And We place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it, and in their ears a deafness; and when thou makest mention of thy Lord alone in the Qur'án, they turn their backs in aversion.

    47 We are Best Aware of what they wish to hear when they give ear to thee and when they take secret counsel, when the evil-doers say: Ye follow but a man bewitched.

    48 See what similitudes they coin for thee, and thus are all astray, and cannot find a road!

    -------------

    6.80 His people argued with him. He said: Dispute ye with me concerning Allah when He hath guided me ? I fear not at all that which ye set up beside Him unless my Lord willeth aught. My Lord includeth all things in His knowledge. Will ye not then remember ?

    81 How should I fear that which ye set up beside Him, when ye fear not to set up beside Allah that for which He hath revealed unto you no warrant ? Which of the two factions hath more right to safety ? (Answer me that) if ye have knowledge.

    82 Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided.

    83 That is Our argument. We gave it unto Abraham against his folk. We raise unto degrees of wisdom whom We will. Lo! thy Lord is Wise, Aware.​

    -------------
    Also compare Sura 13, The Thunder, which speaks of revealing guidance in parables, that people must change what is in their hearts, and of a parable similar to one Jesus spoke about separating the wheat from the chaff, but in the Koran is speaks about separating the ore from the scum:
    17 He sendeth down water from the sky, so that valleys flow according to their measure, and the flood beareth (on its surface) swelling foam - from that which they smelt in the fire in order to make ornaments and tools riseth a foam like unto it - thus Allah coineth (the similitude of) the true and the false. Then, as for the foam, it passeth away as scum upon the banks, while, as for that which is of use to mankind, it remaineth in the earth. Thus Allah coineth the similitudes.

    (The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 13 - The Thunder)​
    I would recommend reading the entire sura of The Thunder.

    Again, you really have to be careful when reading the Koran, and really pray for God's guidance with a pure heart. (As if you can really be sure that your heart is pure. Keeping in mind that those who believe and do not mix their faith with wrongdoing are rightly guided.)

    Although I cannot claim to be as familiar with the Koran as I am with the Bible, I do read the Koran. (However, I cannot be certain that my understanding is rightly guided. I don't know if the veil of misunderstanding is on my heart, or not. That would seem to be a function of exactly where I place my faith! :eek: )
     
  3. GlorytoGod

    GlorytoGod There is a River

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    sorry but i left islam some time ago and wouldn't touch the quran with a barge pole.
     
  4. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    It can be really tough to navigate through.
     
  5. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    Actually, my last post is indeed theologically sound; I'm just not one to brand people with specific verse references when I feel it's not necessary. But since you asked:

    That Jesus did not come for his own glory, but for the glory of God:

    That God deserves worship without asking for it:

    That authority has been given over to Jesus:

    That Jesus came with God's message & purpose:

    That understanding God is important for salvation:

    That love comes through understanding:

    That forgiveness comes through love and repentence:

    That forgiveness is necessary for salvation:

    That it is through Jesus that God can be understood:

    Now that they are referenced to scripture, are my remarks relevant?
     
  6. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Good post, Marsh!
     
  7. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    How many of these Bible quotes that you compiled confirm my position concerning the primacy of G-d as a central focus of worship? Quite a few, isn't it.

    Marsh, what is your definition of "worship"? According to the Wiki, Christian worship has traditionally been "liturgical, characterized by prayers and hymns."
     
  8. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    netti I know you directed that question at Marsh I hope you dont mind that I give you my definition because I believe his will be like mine.

    Anything that consumes us mind body and soul is that which we worship.. It doesnt have to be God it can be anything. It can be TV.. Videogames.. Drugs.. a Man or Woman... a Job.. and of course.. Money and yes we can worship our Selves.
     
  9. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    Yes, God is at the centre of my worship. I believe that God is essentially unknowable due to the scope and depth of what in human terms I can only refer to as power; this is a point on which I think we may agree as well. The difference is that I am able to see God-- glimpse God, I should say-- through Jesus Christ: his teachings, but more importantly his existence.

    Jesus is more to me than simply a character on paper.

    To me, worship means acknowledging God for what God is: creator, sustainer, hope, etc. It means valuing God above other things. In this way I can agree with what Faithfulservant said, because when somebody values money over all other things, it can be said that they are worshipping money.

    To me, worship is much more than a prayer or a hymn or attendance at church; it is a (and this is extremely important) heart-felt acknowledgement of YHVH as God. But how can someone worship God if God is unknowable? It is through Jesus Christ that I come to know God-- honestly. I'm not just another parrot repeating back what they were taught in Sunday School; I've experienced life with and without Jesus, and while life without Jesus was ok, life with Jesus makes sense.

    I honestly believe I could not worship God without the guidance of God's begotten Son, not because I'm afraid, but because without a shepherd the sheep are easily lost.

    Now, if I may ask you a question in return: How are you able to worship God if God is, by Islamic beliefs I've been told, unknowable?
     
  10. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    I see Jesus as teaching us about about salvation and about how to conduct oneself rather than about knowing G-d.

    Again, this is about standards and values.

    The Bible tells us we have had the Holy Spirit bestowed upon us.

    By Islamic belief? I think the real problem comes down to whether you want to accept the Word. G-d is recognized as unknowable in the Old Testament: "they will look for me but won't find me." (Proverbs 1:28). More of interesting in the context of our discussion of worship is this from the New Testament:
    No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and His love is made complete in us. (1 John 4:12)
    On that basis, love of G-d is effectuated through human relatedness. I don't think its strictly about having social ethic. The way we love/take care of ourselves is in effect a way to honor G-d's standards.

    To my way of thinking, 1 John 4:12 puts an end to all theologizing about the nature of G-d. Alas, people like to listen to themselves talk, make demands on other people's time, provoke with silly arguments, etc. Hence the need for an Interfaith dot Org for us to spend our precious time on when we could be make better use of our time. :)
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    There ya go, no G!d's before me... and also won't be able to have the Christ child born within if there is no room in the inn (head to full of other stuff)
     
  12. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    Amen. This thread is testament to that!

    Now you all can go back to counting words and comparing verse.

    I don't want to be in the way.
     
  13. marcoav

    marcoav Purity is the key

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    My dear friend Abdullah,

    In the last night's silence could (I) vislumbrate for a brief moment such thing above that allowed me the understanding i was in search of for some time already. Were i able to share with you this aspect of Truth, that though simple is yet still beyond the grasp of the vast majority of mortals, i truly would. Not being able due to my own limitations, i still want to let you know that it was through this brief conversation of ours that was (I) able to realize and for this i am sincerely grateful to you.

    To our readers, these lines may seem foolish indeed; nontheless, do they know of the admonishment that friendly counsels "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise" for "The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise [wisdom of this world], that they are vain"?

    If only the wise in this world could imagine the High treasures bestowed upon a little child (Mark X:15)...

    Yours, in Service.
     
  14. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    Hey Marsh,

    One thing which we usually forget is that the original Arabic of the Quran is poetic in form and style. The whole of the Quran is basically one book of divine poetry. There have been Arab poets who stopped writing poetry when they read the Quran... Because they knew they could never come close to its beauty. Those who have studied languages have said that the only reason the Arabic language survived is the Quran, because it did such a perfect job in formalizing the script and making it popular that it preserved it for later generations. This is why Arabic didn't go extinct like the other ancient languages of the region like Aramaic for example.

    The English translations (which I am also dependent on, because I can't read Arabic) take out these poetic subtleties from the verses being relayed. This is why the Quran in translation can seem a little blunt sometimes. This is only because there is no way to recreate the Arabic conventions in the English language. However, the meaning of the words are still the same and those who truly want to understand the message, (God Willing) shall have no problem.

    I wish you well on your journey, and feel free to PM me if you have any questions :)
     
  15. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    This response seems a little out of order, but I had to wait until I could think about it some more and look some things up, too.
    Yes, you are a friend, and I do try to reign in destructive tendencies and anger. It is easy to malign without intending to. You are really ticked, probably because of my posts on page 2, but I did not understand what you meant by 'Where's the beef?' at the time. You are right to be angry.
    You mean like anger causing a schism? Actually I wonder if there are any schisms left to create, if the world could possibly be more divided than it already is. Things could be worse, I guess.
    The apes & swine. Nobody wants to be them.

    It seemed to me to say that because it was followed by verse 63 which used the word 'Rabbis' and verse 64 directly says 'Jews'. Some of your posts seemed to say to me that conflicts were not real, so I thought you were just ignoring the 'Plain meaning' of the text. So now I know the meaning is not plain, and you are not completely divorced from reality.

    A general sense? In my opinion I do, but I am not in divinity school.

    Yes, well these ideas are only a few months old for me, although I agree.

    I did not overtly contradict Seattlegal, however that is not really what I think it meant. She focuses upon 'Discretion' while I still think it refers to false prophets & teachers of false doctrine. The Koran is new to me, and I cannot say where it gets its meaning for swine from. It just says 'Swine', which are 'Pigs'. The Koran-ists say that the Koran does not come from the Bible at all, that it by-passes the textual scholarship of Moses, etc.

    Always a pleasure to read your responses. I understand now why you question my sincerity, and I have reconsidered the rest of the post. In the future I will try to be more familiar with the Koran and will post based on the works of various authorities, unless I begin to feel like I have a grasp on its meaning. Otherwise I will try not to make assumptions about it. Thanks!
     
  16. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    And now Marsh is kind of confused, because when he tries to explain his beliefs from a personal angle, Netti replies that it is just that: a personal belief without the backing of scripture. But when Marsh tries to explain his beliefs from a theological angle, Netti replies that theology is a waste of time (which Marsh would have liked to know much earlier so that he wouldn't have taken the time to seek out the references for his post:);)). So Marsh is confused because: How is he to discuss the Word with Netti if not from a personal or theological point of view?....

    That is, if discussion is still open. Or perhaps it is the case that, try as they might, it is not possible to really open a discussion about the Word if there is no consensus on what the Word actually is. And if the Word is not the same, how can the speaker be the same? How can Christians and Muslims be referring to the same God.

    Answer: I don't think we are. But that's ok.
     
  17. marcoav

    marcoav Purity is the key

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    Here i feel obliged to make a brief correction to my previous comment:

    Where i wrote "If only the wise in this world could imagine (...)" please read "the wise of this world"; there's a vast difference ... not being English my mothertongue it is not always easy to properly express such subtle but vital nuances.

    Thank you for your attention.
     
  18. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    True. Hence the need for caution.

    The Koran is not discontinuous with the Bible. Rather, it is presented as an extension of it, in a manner that indicates a protective attitude toward the Bible:
    YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:

    PICKTHAL: And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it

    SHAKIR: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it
    There is no mention of 'Rabbis' in the second chapter. In fact, there is no mention of 'Rabbis' in the entire Koran that I could find.

    Verse 64 continues on with comments about about the Israelites and their covenant relationship, as described in the Bible. However, the Biblical stories are a subset of a larger discussion concerning the expression of faith, as is apparent for example from a statement like "O mankind! worship your L-rd."

    Sometimes the opening verse gives you an idea of the content that is being introduced. This is at the top of the second chapter:
    YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

    PICKTHAL: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).

    SHAKIR: This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
    Sometimes the concluding verses provide a a summary of the intent underlying the narrative. At the end of the Koran's second chapter, you find a discussion of obedience and commitment, thus confirming that this chapter does in fact deal with the substance of faith and expressions of faith.

    I don't mind looking these things up for you, but I think you might value it more if you did the work. This took me all of 10 minutes to put this together, so it's no biggie.
     
  19. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    Please see my prior remarks about the spiritual abjection that results from disbelief/lack of faith. The resultant falling short of one's essential G-dlike nature could be portrayed as a subhuman state. In this connection, a Buddhist recently advised me to make a point not to be reborn as an animal. ;)

    Please tell your "Koran-ist" friends to read the Koran! :)

    The Koran is presented as an extension and clarification of the Bible.
    003.003
    YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

    PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

    SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
     
  20. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

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    My dear friend marcoav, it's great to see you spending time contemplating on the 'higher truth'..., but my friend, without Gods guidance, esoteric thinking on one's own could be deceptive in a verry subtle way in which the wondering mind thinks he's aquiring a high level of spiritual truth but in reality it is full of subtle deceptions and the highest of them all is to associate partners with Allah, the One and Only Creator aned Sustainer of the universe.

    Peace by upon you

    :)
     

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