Is the Christian God the same as the Muslim God?

Marsh

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That is a misconception. Did you know that Muslim men are allowed to marry Christians and Jews? That should put to rest this objection. If that is not proof that friendship between Jews and Muslims is permissible, then I do not know what it. However, even some Muslims are confused about this, I do admit. But check this out:

"Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just." The Quran, 60:8

It makes it clear that those verses which have been quoted on this thread only refer to those Christian and Jewish tribes which were hostile to the Muslims. During the early days, there were some tribes which broke their treaties with the Muslims and those verses were revealed to address that particular situation, and Muslims were told not to rely on outsiders for political alliances.


Ahhhhh, I see. Well, that makes perfect sense to me. My only knowledge of the Koran is the bits and pieces that I hear on these posts, because I haven't gotten to reading it yet (I plan to, though; hard to participate in discussions without background knowledge).
 

seattlegal

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you seem to have changed the subject of discussion, I presume this is because your theology cant handle it :eek:

as for the knowledge of who Jesus really is, I believe that this comes as a revelation from God :)

intellectual knoweledge of scripture is not enough, in fact I would go as far as to say the if one only has an intellectual knoweledge of scripture and no direct revelation from God then all that is left is theology and doctrine all of which are of the devil :eek:

I've seen this referred to in the Koran as right guidance.
Here are some scriptures to consider, in this respect:
16.98 And when thou recitest the Qur'án, seek refuge in Allah from Satan the outcast.

99 Lo! he hath no power over those who believe and put trust in their Lord.

100 His power is only over those who make a friend of him, and those who ascribe partners unto Him (Allah).

101 And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

102 Say: The holy Spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

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17.45 And when thou recitest the Qur'án we place between thee and those who believe not in the Hereafter a hidden barrier;

46 And We place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it, and in their ears a deafness; and when thou makest mention of thy Lord alone in the Qur'án, they turn their backs in aversion.

47 We are Best Aware of what they wish to hear when they give ear to thee and when they take secret counsel, when the evil-doers say: Ye follow but a man bewitched.

48 See what similitudes they coin for thee, and thus are all astray, and cannot find a road!

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6.80 His people argued with him. He said: Dispute ye with me concerning Allah when He hath guided me ? I fear not at all that which ye set up beside Him unless my Lord willeth aught. My Lord includeth all things in His knowledge. Will ye not then remember ?

81 How should I fear that which ye set up beside Him, when ye fear not to set up beside Allah that for which He hath revealed unto you no warrant ? Which of the two factions hath more right to safety ? (Answer me that) if ye have knowledge.

82 Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided.

83 That is Our argument. We gave it unto Abraham against his folk. We raise unto degrees of wisdom whom We will. Lo! thy Lord is Wise, Aware.​

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Also compare Sura 13, The Thunder, which speaks of revealing guidance in parables, that people must change what is in their hearts, and of a parable similar to one Jesus spoke about separating the wheat from the chaff, but in the Koran is speaks about separating the ore from the scum:
17 He sendeth down water from the sky, so that valleys flow according to their measure, and the flood beareth (on its surface) swelling foam - from that which they smelt in the fire in order to make ornaments and tools riseth a foam like unto it - thus Allah coineth (the similitude of) the true and the false. Then, as for the foam, it passeth away as scum upon the banks, while, as for that which is of use to mankind, it remaineth in the earth. Thus Allah coineth the similitudes.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 13 - The Thunder)​
I would recommend reading the entire sura of The Thunder.

Again, you really have to be careful when reading the Koran, and really pray for God's guidance with a pure heart. (As if you can really be sure that your heart is pure. Keeping in mind that those who believe and do not mix their faith with wrongdoing are rightly guided.)

Although I cannot claim to be as familiar with the Koran as I am with the Bible, I do read the Koran. (However, I cannot be certain that my understanding is rightly guided. I don't know if the veil of misunderstanding is on my heart, or not. That would seem to be a function of exactly where I place my faith! :eek: )
 

GlorytoGod

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I would recommend reading the entire sura of The Thunder.

Again, you really have to be careful when reading the Koran, and really pray for God's guidance with a pure heart. (As if you can really be sure that your heart is pure. Keeping in mind that those who believe and do not mix their faith with wrongdoing are rightly guided.)

Although I cannot claim to be as familiar with the Koran as I am with the Bible, I do read the Koran. (However, I cannot be certain that my understanding is rightly guided. I don't know if the veil of misunderstanding is on my heart, or not. That would seem to be a function of exactly where I place my faith! :eek: )

sorry but i left islam some time ago and wouldn't touch the quran with a barge pole.
 

Marsh

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Marsh, it's interesting to me that you want to settle the matter without reference to Scripture. As though your personal philosophy is sufficient to settle a theological issue.


Actually, my last post is indeed theologically sound; I'm just not one to brand people with specific verse references when I feel it's not necessary. But since you asked:

That Jesus did not come for his own glory, but for the glory of God:
John 5 said:
30 "I can do nothing by myself. I judge only as I hear. And my judging is fair. I do not try to please myself. I try only to please the One who sent me.


That God deserves worship without asking for it:
John 3 said:
16 "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son. Anyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.


That authority has been given over to Jesus:
John 17 said:
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed. He said,
"Father, the time has come. Bring glory to your Son. Then your Son will bring glory to you. 2 You gave him authority over all people. He gives eternal life to all those you have given him.


That Jesus came with God's message & purpose:
John 5 said:
19 Jesus answered, "What I'm about to tell you is true. The Son can do nothing by himself. He can do only what he sees his Father doing. What the Father does, the Son also does. 20 This is because the Father loves the Son. He shows him everything he does. Yes, you will be amazed! The Father will show him even greater things than these.

21 "The Father raises the dead and gives them life. In the same way, the Son gives life to anyone he wants to.

22 "Also, the Father does not judge anyone. He has given the Son the task of judging. 23 Then all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Those who do not honor the Son do not honor the Father, who sent him.


That understanding God is important for salvation:
John 17 said:
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


That love comes through understanding:
1 Corinthians 13 said:
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.


That forgiveness comes through love and repentence:
1Peter 4 said:
8Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.


That forgiveness is necessary for salvation:
Matthew 6 said:
14 "Forgive people when they sin against you. If you do, your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive people their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


That it is through Jesus that God can be understood:
John 14 said:
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father. That will be enough for us."

9 Jesus answered, "Don't you know me, Philip? I have been among you such a long time! Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. So how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

10 "Don't you believe that I am in the Father? Don't you believe that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. The Father lives in me. He is the One who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say I am in the Father. Also believe that the Father is in me. Or at least believe what the miracles show about me.


Now that they are referenced to scripture, are my remarks relevant?
 

Netti-Netti

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... Now that they are referenced to scripture, are my remarks relevant?
How many of these Bible quotes that you compiled confirm my position concerning the primacy of G-d as a central focus of worship? Quite a few, isn't it.

My relationship with Jesus Christ is my worship.
Marsh, what is your definition of "worship"? According to the Wiki, Christian worship has traditionally been "liturgical, characterized by prayers and hymns."
 

Faithfulservant

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netti I know you directed that question at Marsh I hope you dont mind that I give you my definition because I believe his will be like mine.

Anything that consumes us mind body and soul is that which we worship.. It doesnt have to be God it can be anything. It can be TV.. Videogames.. Drugs.. a Man or Woman... a Job.. and of course.. Money and yes we can worship our Selves.
 

Marsh

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How many of these Bible quotes that you compiled confirm my position concerning the primacy of G-d as a central focus of worship? Quite a few, isn't it.


Marsh, what is your definition of "worship"? According to the Wiki, Christian worship has traditionally been "liturgical, characterized by prayers and hymns."


Yes, God is at the centre of my worship. I believe that God is essentially unknowable due to the scope and depth of what in human terms I can only refer to as power; this is a point on which I think we may agree as well. The difference is that I am able to see God-- glimpse God, I should say-- through Jesus Christ: his teachings, but more importantly his existence.

Jesus is more to me than simply a character on paper.

To me, worship means acknowledging God for what God is: creator, sustainer, hope, etc. It means valuing God above other things. In this way I can agree with what Faithfulservant said, because when somebody values money over all other things, it can be said that they are worshipping money.

To me, worship is much more than a prayer or a hymn or attendance at church; it is a (and this is extremely important) heart-felt acknowledgement of YHVH as God. But how can someone worship God if God is unknowable? It is through Jesus Christ that I come to know God-- honestly. I'm not just another parrot repeating back what they were taught in Sunday School; I've experienced life with and without Jesus, and while life without Jesus was ok, life with Jesus makes sense.

I honestly believe I could not worship God without the guidance of God's begotten Son, not because I'm afraid, but because without a shepherd the sheep are easily lost.

Now, if I may ask you a question in return: How are you able to worship God if God is, by Islamic beliefs I've been told, unknowable?
 

Netti-Netti

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The difference is that I am able to see God-- glimpse God, I should say-- through Jesus Christ: his teachings, but more importantly his existence.
I see Jesus as teaching us about about salvation and about how to conduct oneself rather than about knowing G-d.

To me, worship means acknowledging God for what God is: creator, sustainer, hope, etc. It means valuing God above other things. In this way I can agree with what Faithfulservant said, because when somebody values money over all other things, it can be said that they are worshipping money.
Again, this is about standards and values.

I honestly believe I could not worship God without the guidance of God's begotten Son, not because I'm afraid, but because without a shepherd the sheep are easily lost.
The Bible tells us we have had the Holy Spirit bestowed upon us.

Now, if I may ask you a question in return: How are you able to worship God if God is, by Islamic beliefs I've been told, unknowable?
By Islamic belief? I think the real problem comes down to whether you want to accept the Word. G-d is recognized as unknowable in the Old Testament: "they will look for me but won't find me." (Proverbs 1:28). More of interesting in the context of our discussion of worship is this from the New Testament:
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and His love is made complete in us. (1 John 4:12)
On that basis, love of G-d is effectuated through human relatedness. I don't think its strictly about having social ethic. The way we love/take care of ourselves is in effect a way to honor G-d's standards.

To my way of thinking, 1 John 4:12 puts an end to all theologizing about the nature of G-d. Alas, people like to listen to themselves talk, make demands on other people's time, provoke with silly arguments, etc. Hence the need for an Interfaith dot Org for us to spend our precious time on when we could be make better use of our time. :)
 

wil

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Anything that consumes us mind body and soul is that which we worship.. It doesnt have to be God it can be anything. It can be TV.. Videogames.. Drugs.. a Man or Woman... a Job.. and of course.. Money and yes we can worship our Selves.
There ya go, no G!d's before me... and also won't be able to have the Christ child born within if there is no room in the inn (head to full of other stuff)
 

citizenzen

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Alas, people like to listen to themselves talk, make demands on other people's time, provoke with silly arguments, etc. Hence the need for an Interfaith dot Org for us to spend our precious time on when we could be make better use of our time. :)

Amen. This thread is testament to that!

Now you all can go back to counting words and comparing verse.

I don't want to be in the way.
 

marcoav

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My dear friend Abdullah,

In the last night's silence could (I) vislumbrate for a brief moment such thing above that allowed me the understanding i was in search of for some time already. Were i able to share with you this aspect of Truth, that though simple is yet still beyond the grasp of the vast majority of mortals, i truly would. Not being able due to my own limitations, i still want to let you know that it was through this brief conversation of ours that was (I) able to realize and for this i am sincerely grateful to you.

To our readers, these lines may seem foolish indeed; nontheless, do they know of the admonishment that friendly counsels "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise" for "The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise [wisdom of this world], that they are vain"?

If only the wise in this world could imagine the High treasures bestowed upon a little child (Mark X:15)...

Yours, in Service.
 

c0de

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Ahhhhh, I see. Well, that makes perfect sense to me. My only knowledge of the Koran is the bits and pieces that I hear on these posts, because I haven't gotten to reading it yet (I plan to, though; hard to participate in discussions without background knowledge).


Hey Marsh,

One thing which we usually forget is that the original Arabic of the Quran is poetic in form and style. The whole of the Quran is basically one book of divine poetry. There have been Arab poets who stopped writing poetry when they read the Quran... Because they knew they could never come close to its beauty. Those who have studied languages have said that the only reason the Arabic language survived is the Quran, because it did such a perfect job in formalizing the script and making it popular that it preserved it for later generations. This is why Arabic didn't go extinct like the other ancient languages of the region like Aramaic for example.

The English translations (which I am also dependent on, because I can't read Arabic) take out these poetic subtleties from the verses being relayed. This is why the Quran in translation can seem a little blunt sometimes. This is only because there is no way to recreate the Arabic conventions in the English language. However, the meaning of the words are still the same and those who truly want to understand the message, (God Willing) shall have no problem.

I wish you well on your journey, and feel free to PM me if you have any questions :)
 

Dream

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This response seems a little out of order, but I had to wait until I could think about it some more and look some things up, too.
Netti Netti said:
First of all, the passage is not about Jews - modern or otherwise. If you check the verse directly above it, you'll see the subject is the "Followers of the Book" who have become an embarrassment to their tradition. That little swipe (attributing antisemitic positions to Islam) is a serious misrepresentation of the scripture, my friend.
Yes, you are a friend, and I do try to reign in destructive tendencies and anger. It is easy to malign without intending to. You are really ticked, probably because of my posts on page 2, but I did not understand what you meant by 'Where's the beef?' at the time. You are right to be angry.
Netti Netti said:
It's not about all Jews and it's not about all Christians either. The passage in question is not even a commentary on religious affiliation. You're looking at a description of what it is to be "cursed by disbelief." The passage is about sinners and hypocrites, people who have lost their way. Now they are "far from the right path," and they "hasten in sin and exceed the limits" (5.62). To "hasten in sin" alludes to the apprehension of wrong thinking and the desperate quality of spiritual abjection. Existentially, you are at the mercy of inertial tendencies if you fail to exercise judgment in keeping with the standards for which you become responsible as a result of Revelation.
You mean like anger causing a schism? Actually I wonder if there are any schisms left to create, if the world could possibly be more divided than it already is. Things could be worse, I guess.
Netti Netti said:
These are not complicated concepts. They are very basic Biblical ideas. The passage you quoted is in line with the Bible's Prophetic Tradition, which implies a vantage point for cultural criticism concerning where people who should know better - i.e., people who were given Divine Guidance but still they violate the standard to which they are accountable. It's a vantage point of faith and devotion.
The apes & swine. Nobody wants to be them.

Netti Netti said:
The passage in question is urging Muslims not to be like someone who has forgotten the L-rd and, as a result has, voided the effectiveness of the L-rd presence in their lives in disobedience. The sinners are contrasted with those who are faithful and obedient. The same simple compare/contrast approach is seen in The Cow 2:61-2:62.
It seemed to me to say that because it was followed by verse 63 which used the word 'Rabbis' and verse 64 directly says 'Jews'. Some of your posts seemed to say to me that conflicts were not real, so I thought you were just ignoring the 'Plain meaning' of the text. So now I know the meaning is not plain, and you are not completely divorced from reality.

Netti Netti said:
The Prophetic Tradition is old. Here's an example from Daniel: "We have not obeyed the LORD our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets." The issue is ignoring that which has been revealed: "We have not listened to your servants the prophets." Have you read Daniel?

Do you have a general sense of the Prophetic Tradition? Abraham and Moses, among others, called for purity of religion and pointed out the people's contradictions and failings, underscoring the need for them to get their act together. The Prophets were moralists and they were also critics of pre-existing doctrine (e.g. Hosea, the 8th century BC prophet).
A general sense? In my opinion I do, but I am not in divinity school.

Netti Netti said:
The Prophetic Tradition was old when Jesus was on the planet, but it continued well after he was gone. Jesus was concerned about the religious legalists. Paul was concerned about Christian churches that has lost their way. The Prophetic Tradition seems very important to Muslims, who will speak in terms of embellishing themselves with "The Manner of the Prophets." That Tradition is all over the Koran.
Yes, well these ideas are only a few months old for me, although I agree.

Netti Netti said:
One other thing. Elsewhere, you seemed to agree with Seattlegal when she suggested that 'swine' is a term for hypocrites who mock the spirit of the law by their conduct. Two questions: (1) Why would you have a different interpretation regarding 'swine' in relation to the Biblical passage and another for the Koran when the context, focus, and handling of the subject matter is obviously very similar in content and in style? (2) Why wouldn't the Koran's use of the same term at least prompt you to look a little closer in light of the obvious similarities? :eek::(:eek:
I did not overtly contradict Seattlegal, however that is not really what I think it meant. She focuses upon 'Discretion' while I still think it refers to false prophets & teachers of false doctrine. The Koran is new to me, and I cannot say where it gets its meaning for swine from. It just says 'Swine', which are 'Pigs'. The Koran-ists say that the Koran does not come from the Bible at all, that it by-passes the textual scholarship of Moses, etc.

Netti Netti said:
Ok, so you finally got a response out of me. Even though you've been making rather unusual pronouncements about Islam lately, this may have been the first time you've actually presented something from the Koran. It's disappointing all around the reasons mentioned. A more sincere effort to interpret the Koran is likely to be helpful to us all. Would you reconsider the rest of your misleading post. I think it would be good training for you. Be a champ!
Always a pleasure to read your responses. I understand now why you question my sincerity, and I have reconsidered the rest of the post. In the future I will try to be more familiar with the Koran and will post based on the works of various authorities, unless I begin to feel like I have a grasp on its meaning. Otherwise I will try not to make assumptions about it. Thanks!
 

Marsh

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Netti said... said:
Again, this is about standards and values.

Then Netti said... said:
To my way of thinking, 1 John 4:12 puts an end to all theologizing about the nature of G-d. Alas, people like to listen to themselves talk, make demands on other people's time, provoke with silly arguments, etc. Hence the need for an Interfaith dot Org for us to spend our precious time on when we could be make better use of our time. :)

But before that said:
By Islamic belief? I think the real problem comes down to whether you want to accept the Word.


And now Marsh is kind of confused, because when he tries to explain his beliefs from a personal angle, Netti replies that it is just that: a personal belief without the backing of scripture. But when Marsh tries to explain his beliefs from a theological angle, Netti replies that theology is a waste of time (which Marsh would have liked to know much earlier so that he wouldn't have taken the time to seek out the references for his post:);)). So Marsh is confused because: How is he to discuss the Word with Netti if not from a personal or theological point of view?....

That is, if discussion is still open. Or perhaps it is the case that, try as they might, it is not possible to really open a discussion about the Word if there is no consensus on what the Word actually is. And if the Word is not the same, how can the speaker be the same? How can Christians and Muslims be referring to the same God.

Answer: I don't think we are. But that's ok.
 

marcoav

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Here i feel obliged to make a brief correction to my previous comment:

Where i wrote "If only the wise in this world could imagine (...)" please read "the wise of this world"; there's a vast difference ... not being English my mothertongue it is not always easy to properly express such subtle but vital nuances.

Thank you for your attention.
 

Netti-Netti

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It is easy to malign without intending to
True. Hence the need for caution.

You mean like anger causing a schism?
The Koran is not discontinuous with the Bible. Rather, it is presented as an extension of it, in a manner that indicates a protective attitude toward the Bible:
YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:

PICKTHAL: And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it

SHAKIR: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it
It seemed to me to say that because it was followed by verse 63 which used the word 'Rabbis' and verse 64 directly says 'Jews'.
There is no mention of 'Rabbis' in the second chapter. In fact, there is no mention of 'Rabbis' in the entire Koran that I could find.

Verse 64 continues on with comments about about the Israelites and their covenant relationship, as described in the Bible. However, the Biblical stories are a subset of a larger discussion concerning the expression of faith, as is apparent for example from a statement like "O mankind! worship your L-rd."

So now I know the meaning is not plain
Sometimes the opening verse gives you an idea of the content that is being introduced. This is at the top of the second chapter:
YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

PICKTHAL: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).

SHAKIR: This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
Sometimes the concluding verses provide a a summary of the intent underlying the narrative. At the end of the Koran's second chapter, you find a discussion of obedience and commitment, thus confirming that this chapter does in fact deal with the substance of faith and expressions of faith.

I don't mind looking these things up for you, but I think you might value it more if you did the work. This took me all of 10 minutes to put this together, so it's no biggie.
 

Netti-Netti

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The Koran is new to me, and I cannot say where it gets its meaning for swine from. It just says 'Swine', which are 'Pigs'.
Please see my prior remarks about the spiritual abjection that results from disbelief/lack of faith. The resultant falling short of one's essential G-dlike nature could be portrayed as a subhuman state. In this connection, a Buddhist recently advised me to make a point not to be reborn as an animal. ;)

The Koran-ists say that the Koran does not come from the Bible at all, that it by-passes the textual scholarship of Moses, etc.
Please tell your "Koran-ist" friends to read the Koran! :)

The Koran is presented as an extension and clarification of the Bible.
003.003
YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
 

Abdullah

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My dear friend Abdullah,

In the last night's silence could (I) vislumbrate for a brief moment such thing above that allowed me the understanding i was in search of for some time already. Were i able to share with you this aspect of Truth, that though simple is yet still beyond the grasp of the vast majority of mortals, i truly would. Not being able due to my own limitations, i still want to let you know that it was through this brief conversation of ours that was (I) able to realize and for this i am sincerely grateful to you.

To our readers, these lines may seem foolish indeed; nontheless, do they know of the admonishment that friendly counsels "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise" for "The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise [wisdom of this world], that they are vain"?

If only the wise in this world could imagine the High treasures bestowed upon a little child (Mark X:15)...

Yours, in Service.

My dear friend marcoav, it's great to see you spending time contemplating on the 'higher truth'..., but my friend, without Gods guidance, esoteric thinking on one's own could be deceptive in a verry subtle way in which the wondering mind thinks he's aquiring a high level of spiritual truth but in reality it is full of subtle deceptions and the highest of them all is to associate partners with Allah, the One and Only Creator aned Sustainer of the universe.

Peace by upon you

:)
 
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