God's Plan

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Azure24, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    Maybe I shouldn't be writing this but here is God's plan as I have understood it...

    First of all have faith my friends God is in control, had been in control and always will be in control...

    "In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [Greek: ‘is operating’] ALL things after [after what? His ‘free’ will?] ... After the COUNSEL of His own will" (Eph. 1:11)!

    "Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).

    Did you read that? "Is all", not some, or a few but "is all"

    and this does include evil...

    ...I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

    “It is an EXPERIENCE of EVIL that God has given to the sons of humanity to HUMBLE them by it.”

    And to this agrees the rest of Scripture:

    “For ALL his days are SORROWS, and his travail [experience] GRIEF…” (Ecc. 2:23)

    The destiny of the human race is indeed GLORIOUS, but the journey is filled with evil and sorrow. This not to say that there are not many beautiful and good things in life, but for most the misery far far outweighs the pleasurable.

    God's plan in a nutshell...

    The creation parable...

    "And CREATING [a continuing action] is God humanity in His image" (Gen. 1:26a & 27a Concordant Literal Old Testament),

    When God had created the Heavens and the Earth (including the Garden AND THE SUBTLE SERPENT!) he said this:

    "And God saw every thing [yes everything!!] that He had made, and, behold, it was very good…" (Gen. 1:31).

    How can this be true if man was not meant to, but indeed did sin?

    Evertything was good, in fact everything was "perfect", perfect for the very purpose in which it was created...

    Take in consideration, if it was good when God said it was good, could it therefore change? Would God now see everything and say it is bad? Well? Does God change?

    "For I am the Lord, I CHANGE NOT…" (Mal. 3:6).

    Man's so called "Fall"

    After the fruit was eaten...

    "And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

    Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

    Was it the Devil's thought?

    Was the Devil once this perfect angel that fell from Grace and then decieved mankind?

    "He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil" (I John 3:8).

    Well there's your answer the Devil sins from "THE BEGINNING" not some artificial "fall".

    and after this mankind is subject to suffer...

    "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life." (Gen. 3:17).

    “For ALL his days are SORROWS, and his travail [experience] GRIEF…” (Ecc. 2:23)

    Christ's The Saviour

    "For it became [was fitting for…] Him [Jesus], for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation PERFECT through suffering" (Heb. 2:10).

    "Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:8-9).

    We are given an experience of evil...and suffer so we can be made perfect...
  2. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

    Apr 2, 2005
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    i think short and sweet works better:)

    Gods purpose for the earth is to bring the earth back to paradise conditions, and Jesus plays a very big part in that purpose.

    Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
    1 corinthians 15;24-28

    yes its all going to come about because of GODS KINGDOM daniel 2;44
    matthew 6-9-10

    and now we are well along into bible prophecy , yes its all happening in this time of the end . Daniel 12;4

    and the GOODNEWS about GODS KINGDOM is being made known ,and it is putting people on notice about it matthew 24;14

    And it is Jehovahs witnesses who are making it known, on a global scale , and how we respond to that GOODNEWS :) IS ALL ABOUT FREEWILL:)

    Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 2 PETER 3;9

  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Oct 17, 2005
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    mee too.

    G!d gave us: a big blue ball to play on; a body; and companions.

    Through learning to love, respect and take care of all three here in 3D, we'll return back to spirit with this experience.
  4. a slave of Allah

    a slave of Allah Active Member

    Feb 26, 2009
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    I didn't understand the purpose of the OP, but I will talk about the free will as I know it.

    * Firts, the free will is there, no one can deny it.

    * Also, Allah Glory be to Him is Higher than us, so His will is Over our wills.

    When our wills oppose Allah's Will, His Will will be and ours immediately flee.

    * We like that Majesty, and We bow down for the One Who Own It.

    * The teacher may know his students in the middle of the semester, and he can tell you who will fail and who will win, yet the teacher didn't force any student to fail.

    * Allah The All Knowing knows the things before they happen, so every thing is written in knowledge.

    I don't know where I am written, but I know that Allah is The Praise Worthy, so I should think good about Him and invoke Him

    186. And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad PAPBUH) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near. I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor). So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright.
  5. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

    Mar 3, 2004
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    You do, Mee?
  6. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

    Apr 2, 2005
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  7. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

    Sep 8, 2005
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    For us to play on?

    I thought this was satan's play pen? And we his meer toys :D

    "can play with the toys but don't break um!"
  8. winner08

    winner08 Well-Known Member

    Sep 6, 2008
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    Azure: Your not alone. We are definatly not in the majority. I also know that there is no hell, that Jesus never taught it and neither did the prophet of old. I know God did not give us free will. As you stated in scripture God works His will through us. I know that God created good and evil. God created Satan. Satan is not some angle turn renagade. Satan was a murderer from the beginning. I also know that there was no fall of man. God created man subject to vainty and spiritually weak so that we must depend on Him for our salvation. God knew from the beginning that Adam would sin. There's nothing we can do in which God has not intened for us to do. I've been reading your posts and we have have the same beliefs it is so refreashing to see someone besides me here that knows the truth. That God has revealed His truths to us. I get trashed and beat up all the time here. But that's OK I know the truth. Most don't. God has blinded them. God has not chose to remove the shells from their eyes.


    I have this great site and teacher that you will love. You believe as I do This site will change NO reinforce your beliefs it is unbelieveable. If your interested send me a PM and I will give you the info. Your wont be sorry.
  9. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
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    God has a purpose for his creation and he will not change it or his principes.
    God's motivation to create was love but it takes two to experience love.
    True love can only be freely returned or it is not true love. As a parent , we can experience the same thing with our children. They grow to maturity. Our love for them is unconditional but we cannot force them to love us. Love cannot be forced.

    This is a result of the fall. There are difference with growing pain and suffering due to inheriting a fallen nature

  10. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    Hi soleil, my good friend, how are you?

    Your example is good...But this example proves nothing. I said, and have said in this forum too many times....Free will has nothing to do with choice. I will pray that some day you will come to the knowledge of the truth...

    "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:36).

    Free? Free from what?.....You see soleil, In reality there are only two Will's man can follow...1)The Will of the Flesh and 2)God's Will. God's Will is indeed FREE!!

    God has intended most of mankind to follow the will of the flesh...for now. Never compare God to mankind, God never forces people to do His Will. Did God force Jesus to do His Will? How about the Apostles? There was one time in my life when I (let's say) was not very appreciative of God. Look at me now....Did I do this of my own power? Well did I soleil? Was it my power to turn to God?

    "Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is NOT subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed CAN BE" (Rom. 8:7).

    "No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: ‘drag’] him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44). This verse is plain: "No man CAN…" come to Christ of his own will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.

    If at one time I was against God, now for Him....Why can't God do this for the rest of mankind? Oh, and by the way I was not FORCED!!! If the Father draws him, does this mean FORCED? NO!!

    Does man save himself or does Grace?

    "For BY GRACE are you saved…" (Eph. 2:8).


    You said it again "Fallen nature". Do you realise what you say sometimes?

    Man's "fall" was "natural"

    Here's how God created man...

    "For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

    In response to when I said when God made everything He said it was "Good"

    Man was meant to. That's my point...Duh. Read above, God made the creature (that's us) "subject to vanity" not "williingly" (not our will) but by "reason of Him" (that's God).

    Soleil, I can't believe it!! You're beginning to understand!!!

    That's exactly why God intended it to happen!!! To become like God Mankind must experience Evil!!! What did God say after they ate the fruit!!

    "And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

    How can mankind become God's image if we do not know Good and Evil!! (like God does) We HAD to eat the fruit for this to happen!!!

    soleil (you don't read my posts do you?). Think for a moment...Adam and Eve had only experienced Good. They did not appreciate what they had. God knew we had to experience evil, to appreciate the Good...

    Why was Job tested? Why was Jesus tested?

    "The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, IS FROM THE LORD" (Prov. 16:1). [Regardless of the proper translation of the first half of this verse, the second half is emphatically] "…FROM THE LORD."

    Who is Lucifer? If you are reffering the Satan, READ the Scriptures...

    God says, “…I have created the waster [Heb: ‘destroyer’] to destroy” (Isa. 54:16).

    “…By His spirit He [God] has garnished the heavens; His hand has formed the crooked SERPENT” (Job 26:13).

    “Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).

    The phrase, “…and abode not in the truth…” is proof against any such theory. Someone suggested that Satan once did stand in the truth, and this verse is telling us that he “…did not continue standing in the truth…” That is not what this phrase is stating. Notice a few other translations of this phrase:

    Young’s Literal Translation: “…and in the truth he has not stood….”

    Green’s Interlinear Greek-English New Testament: “…and he has not stood in the truth…”

    Emphatic Diaglott Interlinear: “…has not stood in the truth…”

    No, Satan the Devil has never stood in the truth. He was a liar and a murderer “…from the beginning.” (This does not mean 'Genesis'. "From" not "since")And so we have proof that God created Satan just as he is.

    Jealous?!?*.,?? Fine until then!!?**??? Where does it say this?

    THEN God had to....You say this like God changed his mind. soleil does God change?

    "For I am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT" (Mal. 3:6).

    Why do you think that is?

    I've already answered this above, but if I must...

    "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

    Did you read the red especially? Good. God has commanded the natural must come first, then the spiritual. It is the same with Good and Evil, we must first experience the natural, then the spiritual...

    God is suffering? Totally unfair? I shall pray for you...This is Unscriptural...

    YOU are saying God made a mistake by saying God "Created man in his image". Look at this world? Do you really think man is in God's image? You say that God created man not to sin and man then, did sin. YOU soleil are saying God made the mistake....
  11. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
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    Jesus spoke to the Jews who had believed him. "If you obey my teaching," he said, "you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth. And the truth will set you free."
    If you obey me !!!. The bible is full of IFs, IFs, Ifs....The way I look at it is that God does 95% and we do 5%. God does almost everything. But our 5% requires 100% of our sincere effort. I have experienced this many times in my life.

    God does not intend people to do evil. That is absurd. The flesh was not struggling with evil before the human fall. God said His creation was very good...including the angelic beings like Lucifer.
    As you love to say... you ar not scriptural.....

    God will not force us to do His will. That would be against the possibility of true love to exist.
    Let me ask you ? What was the motivation for God to create us, to create the whole creation, what was the purpose for His creation. What would the Kingdom of Gold look like ?

    There is evil in the best of us and some goodness in the worst of us.
    Beside our fallen nature, we still have our original nature. There is a war inside of us especially between our mind and our body.

    Azure, you are cherry picking words trying to justify a theory that does not work because overall it does not make sense with the whole bible and the purpose for God's creation.
    I can do the same.
    Then they asked him, "What does God want from us? What works does he want us to do?"
    Jesus answered, "God's work is to believe in the One he has sent."

    We can see through the whole bible that.
    I can show one point: man and woman have their portion of responsibility. It does not diminish God in anyway. On the contrary.

    Here we go again. Jesus said clearly "Believe and Follow me".
    As I said earlier 95% is God, 5% is man.The debate over Grace and Works has been going on for ever. Both are needed. Satan is having a great time with people arguiing about that issue.

    If He did, he would be an evil God. Do you realize what you are saying ?Evil would be here forever and ever. A God that creates his children to do evil....... What kind of God do you believe in ? I am worrying... seriously

    I already responded to that. A perfect God is not good and evil.

    I do not think you understand what this evil really is. It is transmitted generation from generation through our veins. When will mankind appreciate goodness. It has been a long time to experience evil

    After the fall, man had to reestblish a new foundation of faith to regain trust wit God. That is the short version.

    You are not scriptural. Once again you confuse before and after the fall
    "God saw everything he had made. And it was very good."

    I will start a new thread on this issue
    I lost some of your words here but basically God did not change His mind about His purpose for creating us and His creation

    After the human fall, the providence to restore man and reverse the fall started. This is why a Messiah had to come and religion became needed.
    If there was not fall, the bible would have just included the beginning of Genesis and the rest would have been the story of the Kingdom of heaven.

    What is your point ? Natural is evil and evil is first ??????

    "The Lord was very sad that he had made man on the earth. His heart was filled with pain." Genesis 5:6

    Since the fall God's heart is F-I-L-L-E-D W-I-T-H W-I-T-H P-A-I-N.

    The most precious and central part of God is His heart. This so important. Jesus himself cried over Jerusalem. He knew what would happen to that city after he is crucified. His knew God's heart of filled with tears.

    Man fell away from God and has now a fallen nature and an original nature in conflict. We are still the children God wants to bring back to His Bossom. His love is uconditional. Under or fallen nature and accumulation of sins, we still have our original nature and have also have done good deeds too.

    I never said that. God wanted us to grow to maturity and perfection of heart. I never said God made a mistake. We did during our growth period.
  12. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

    Apr 2, 2005
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    God's Plan

    or rather Gods original purpose for the earth .

    and he has it all in hand, and now we are well along into Gods purpose for the earth .

    and soon his heavenly kingdom goverment will step into the affairs of man ,and then things will be even more on the way to getting the earth back to a paradise conditions

    And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; Daniel 2;44

    yes that heavenly kingdom goverment was set up in the heavens in 1914
    ( inline with bible prophecy and chronology) and soon it will crush manmade goverments .

    yes we are now well along into Gods purpose to bring the earth back to paradise conditions .:)

  13. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    I said it TOO MANY TIMES...

    The choice to believe is our choice but this "choice" is NOT FREE!! God brings about the CAUSES for US to make this choice...

    Isa. 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and CREATE EVIL; I the LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS."

    Many Christian teachers and theologians like to look at examples such as this one with Joseph and conclude that God merely turns the lemons of Joseph’s brothers into lemonade. That is totally untrue and unscriptural. Was the selling of Joseph into Egypt as a slave (their lemons), that God then used to preserve life (His lemonade)? Is that what took place here? God used their lemons to make His lemonade? Absolutely not.

    It was GOD who made these "lemons" in the first place—"GOD DID SEND ME…," and it was also God Who turned those lemons into lemonade, "…TO PRESERVE LIFE" (Gen. 45:5b). Or as Gen. 50:20 states:

    "But as for you, ye thought evil [lemons] against me: but God meant it for good [LEMONADE], to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

    Joseph and his brothers is a parable for the whole plan of God, to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear:

    God made the lemons and God changed the lemons into lemonade.

    God is the Potter and we are the clay. God first made the clay in His hands "marred/ruined"—LEMONS,before "…He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it"LEMONADE(Jer. 18:4).

    Therefore, "For as in Adam ALL DIE [the marred, ruined clay—lemons] even so in Christ shall ALL [it’s the same ‘all’ as ‘in Adam’—it’s the SAME CLAY {Adam means ‘clay’}--lemons] BE MADE ALIVE [‘another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it’—LEMONADE]."

    It is GOD Who does the working of the clay. The clay does not determine its own destiny, that is the POTTER’S job:

    "Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [we, the clay] say to Him that formed it [God, the Potter], Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter power over the clay [and the clay’s powerless imagined ‘free will’], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour [lemonade], and another unto dishonour [lemons]" (Rom. 9:20-21).

    You won’t find many statements in Scripture more profound than this one. "…you thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD…"

    If God said His creation was Good, why was Satan not good? I have given you my answer, where's yours?

    Who is Lucifer? Where does it say Lucifer was once an angelic being?

    Your answer ASSUMES things that aren't Biblically true. Did you ever live a lifestyle APART from God? Do you now live a lifestyle WITH God? How did that transition come about? Did you ALL ON YOUR OWN, one day come to decide that you wanted to live WITH God as opposed to APART from God? Did you make that choice, without a cause, and INDEPENDENTLY of God's supernatural intervention? I don't have to ask, because I already know the answer, and the answer will be the same for all non-believers in the future.

    Paul tells us that "NOT ONE is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11).

    No one seeks God until God calls them [Do you see the cause?] to begin seeking. Jesus Christ plain stated that

    "NO ONE CAN [of their own cause] come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be DRAWING HIM [God causing]" (John 6:44 & 65)

    It's clear in it's "PROPER" translation...

    "And CREATING [a continuing action] is God humanity in His image" (Gen. 1:26a & 27a Concordant Literal Old Testament),

    See, soleil you can not cherry pick lies...

    When did the Disciples (who were the only ones at the time) believe?

    Before Jesus was Resurrected. Or after?

    Search the Scriptures and you will see it was until AFTER Christ was Resurrected did his Disciples then believe. Then became the Apostles...

    "Then He took unto Him the twelve, and said unto them. Behold we go up to Jerusalem, and ALL THINGS that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished… and THEY UNDERSTOOD NONE of these things: and this saying was HID from them, NEITHER KNEW they the things which were spoken" (Luke 18:31-34).

    Jesus (during His ministry) said many times...

    "DO you NOW believe?" (John 16:31).

    Just because Jesus asks questions does not mean He does not know the answer. Because clearly they didn't...

    Here look again...

    "And He called the multitude, and said unto them, hear, and understand" (Matt. 15:10).

    Jesus ALREADY KNEW they did not understand because later HE says this...

    "Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing, see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

    Jesus ALWAYS taught to the multitude in parables for this very reason...
  14. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    What God do I believe in? Why ask...

    You say if God created Evil, Evil would then be here forever and ever...

    First of all, "forever and ever" (Like the KJ and many other Bibles use) does not make sense...

    That's like saying the Eternities of the Eternities... Or dying of death...Or infinity of the infinities...

    soleil, Death is similar to Evil...Who created Death?

    If God created Death, does this mean death will always remain?

    "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."(I Cor

    "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."(Rev 21:4)

    Soleil, why does it say...

    "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

    Beacuse the World is Natural and the Natural passes away......

    "For this world in its present [natural] form is passing away."(I Cor 7:31)

    "The world and its desires pass away"(John 2:17)

    "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."(Rev 21:1)

    And notice it says "...and there was no longer any sea"

    Did anyone read my thread regarding God's judgment in a Pond? No!!

    "And the SEA gave up the dead
    [spiritually dead people] which were in it…"

    "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth"sits upon "many waters" we are told in Rev. 17:1. Anciently God also referred to the nation of Babylon as, "O thou that dwells upon MANY WATERS…" (Jer. 51:13). And these many waters are explained in Rev. 17:15 as:

    "The WATERS which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

    Where does the Beast come from!!!

    "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a [wild] beast rise up OUT OF THE SEA [the vast sea of humanity]" (Rev. 13:1).

    God uses "waters" and "sea" interchangeably in the Scriptures. Babylon was:

    "O thou that dwells upon many WATERS…" (Jer. 51:13).

    Notice that Babylon’s "…waves do roar like great waters…" (Ver. 55).But then in verse 36 we read this:

    "Therefore thus says the Lord; Behold, I will plead your cause, and take vengeance for thee; and I will DRY UP HER SEA…"

    Does the Sea obey the Lord???

    "And when He was entered into a ship, His disciples followed Him. And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was COVERED WITH THE WAVES [‘and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was already filling, Mk 4:37]: but He was asleep. And His disciple came to Him, and awoke Him, saying Lord, save us: WE PERISH. And He said unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then He arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea: and there was a great calm. But the men marveled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him!" (Matt. 8:23-27).

    Does anyone have the slightest doubt that Jesus possesses the power to calm the sea? Is any man or group of men more powerful than the sea? Then why, oh why, do we allow theologians, clergymen, pastors, preachers, teachers and authors to tell us that Jesus Christ is POWERLESS TO CALM THE SEA OF HUMANITY? That man possesses a raging power of "free will" that even God Himself cannot and will not penetrate or calm? No, my friends, "…the winds and the sea OBEY HIM!"

    But Satan dieceved before the fall.

    So you say, God said everything was Good. Then immediately after He had said this Satan (for some reason called "Lucifer") apparently "fell" even though A "Perfect" and "Sovereign" God said everything was Good.

    Why does god hurry up already and destroy this "Evil", soleil?

    Why doesn't your god destroy Satan. And create a perfect creation...


    your god can't create a perfection creation!! Can't rid the world of Evil!! (Even though he created the tree of knowledge containing good and evil)
    Cannot destroy Satan only his works!! Regretted he made mankind (basically your saying he made a mistake!!)!!

    This god certainly isn't Sovereign!!

    You seem to answer your own question..."If there was no fall..."

    That's why there had to be a fall. READ:

    "And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand],the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

    This is where false translations will always fail...

    AFTER man ate the Fruit...

    "the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US"

    Contradicts... BEFORE....

    "So God created man in his own image"(Gen 1:27)

    Christ was before the fall, in fact, Christ was before the World...

    "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

    Your quote is from Gen. 6:5 not 5:6. Anyway...

    You said God was "suffering the most". Because God greived, this does not mean He was "suffereing the most" as you say or "It was totally unfair to him"...

    Read it in context...

    Gen 6:5 states:

    "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time."

    God then says...

    "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air..."

    Was ALL mankind "wiped"? Was ALL animals and creatures that move along the, and birds of the air "wiped"?

    God said...

    "I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth."

    But "them" and "Earth" are still here!!

    you constantly fail to distinguish between what is relative and what is absolute. What is temporary, and what is permanent. What is God’s plan from His goal. The process from the conclusion. God destroys His own people because of their ignorance:

    "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge ..." ( Hosea 4:6).

    "Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge ..." (Isa. 5`2).

    These destructions and captivities are, however, only temporary preludes to their permanent salvation.

    Being "destroyed" is not permanent. Destroyed and lost are virtually synonymous in the Scriptures. What is it that God does with or for destroyed people? He SAVES THEM. It would take twenty pages just to quote the verses showing that this is what God does. He is a "Saviour." He saves people. It matters not one iota that they die before He saves them. It is appointed unto all men once to die. Death is no barrier to salvation (Rom. 8:38).

    God saved Noah and his family from the raging waves of the sea in an ark. When we come to understanding spiritual things, we will clearly see that the ark represents Christ.

    But What happens to the Sea? Remember read above...
  15. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    This is one of the few quotes when I actually agree with you... Yes God's heart was filled with pain but, why? Because His children are so disobedeint?

    No. But because He knows that this is the trial mankind has to go through...

    I will kill two birds with one stone and answer both your quotes.

    Jesus is made...

    "...perfect through suffering."(Heb 2:10)

    "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He IS, SO ARE WE in the world"
    (I John 4:17).

    If you do not suffer you are not with Christ...

    "To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES" (Rev. 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:26; 3:5; 3:12; 3:21).

    Adam and Eve "overcame" nothing. That is why they "failed". To become like God man needs to "overcome".

    That is why God created Evil and all the other things in this world...

    "Overcomes" WHAT?

    Overcomes the sins of the FLESH, the sins of the CHURCH, and the sins of the whole WORLD. We must overcome just "AS" Jesus overcame:

    "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even AS I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21).

    Jesus Christ overcame His own FLESH (Heb. 4:15), and Jesus overcame the sins of the whole WORLD:

    "These things I have spoke unto you, that in Me [Jesus] ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer: I have OVERCOME THE WORLD" (John 16:33).

    We were never "perfect" only God is "perfect".

    Where does it say man is "perfect"?

    If man is not "perfect" man is not in the image of God!!

    Oh and soleil, I made some more "cherry pickings"

    "God WILLS that ALL mankind be SAVED..."
    (I Tim. 2:4).

    And "Thy WILL BE DONE..." (Matt. 6:10).

    "For God IS LOVE" (I John 4:8), and

    "LOVE NEVER FAILS...." (I Cor. 13:10).
  16. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
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    That is a very fair and simple question. Who is God for you ?

    OK, let me rephrase it " Evil would never end". What do you have to pick on every word and go into a new direction. Cant we discuss one subject at a time.

    Come on ! Can you just stay with evil for now and respond to my question. Did God created evil ? as being the source of evil ?

    So you say, God said everything was Good. Then immediately after He had said this Satan (for some reason called "Lucifer") apparently "fell" even though A "Perfect" and "Sovereign" God said everything was Good.[/quote]

    Yes what God created was very good. As I said before, everything goes through a growth period before reaching pefection, including me and you. During the growth stage, God gave a commandement to A&E. Lucifer knew what it was.

    God will not destroy what he created (It is good). He is love. He will not change his absolute principles. In the same way, Jesus did not destroy Satan but instead like God loved his enemies. Man has to return to God and take back his rightfull position by overcoming Satan. Jesus did. Satan has no claim on him. He cannot accuse Jesus before God.

    Love is not weak. God's enemies surrender to God's love. It is the most powerful. Look at Jesus power through his love. Jesus could have defeated his enemies too.

    Genesis 6:5-6 "The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. He was very sorry that he had made them,

    The Messiah (second Adam came to uproot the root of Evil, the original sin. If Jesus had not been killed, there was a second Eve that was prepared. Jesus could have started God's sinless lineage on earth. All mankind could have connected to his family like the branches of a tree of life. Our blood would have been washed not just spiritually.

    The tree of life in the Garden represented Adam and the tree of knowledge of good and evil represented Eve. (That is another thread)

    What did the fruit represent ? (That is another thread too)

    God is still waiting for his sinless lineage on earth. That is where the Kingdom of heaven on earth starts.

    God could destroy Satan in a flash. But God is unchanging and absolute. His principles are also unchanging and absolute.

    God is sovereign over absolute love. He created out of love, He wants to experience divine love form his children.
    True Love requires FREE WILL. There is no other way. DO you have children?

    God had the idea of man even before he created the whole creation, Actually the creation is designed in the same way as man. We are the microcosm of the macrocosm. Our body is 70% water, the earth is also 70% water etc.. etc...
    We could say God had you and me in mind before the foundation of the world.

    You said God was "suffering the most". Because God grieved, this does not mean He was "suffering the most" as you say or "It was totally unfair to him"...[/quote]
    Yes, it is the most unfair because God did not fail but we are the one who complain.

    Keep going, God then says:" I'm sorry I ever made them."
    But the LORD was pleased with Noah, and this is the story about him. Noah was the only person who lived right and obeyed God. He had three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth."

    God saved one family (interesting, one family). God intended to send the Messiah after the flood but because of Ham's failure God's providence was prolonged.

    Throughout the OT,God used central families (Noah, Abraham, etc and their children) like he choose Adam's family. Then when Jacob became victorious, God started to use nations.

    What is permanent is God's ideal for His creation, God's purpose for creating man.The course of restoration after the fall is to reverse what happened during the fall. (That is another thread.)

    Yes God want to desperatley save his children. Noah was chosen by God to symbolically restore the cosmos, which had been handed over to Satan by Adam's fall. Consequently, Noah had to make an offering which would symbolize a new cosmos, and be acceptable to God. The ark was this offering. After God gave his instructions, Noah spent one hundred twenty years building the ark, enduring all types of ridicule from the evil and sinful world because of his absolute obedience to God.

    The members of Noah's family who entered the ark were to restore and indemnify the failures of the members of Adam's family. Since the ark represented the cosmos, Noah, as the master of the ark, represented God; the members of his family represented all mankind; and the animals in the ark represented the entire Creation.

    When the ark had been completed, God judged mankind and destroyed the evil through a forty-day flood. Man was created to serve only one master; so God cannot relate as a second master to a fallen person, who already has Satan as his master.
    God brought about the flood to destroy all who remained under Satan's dominion.
  17. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
    Likes Received:
    Altogether now...

    “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

    Answer: NO!
    “Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has not prey?"
    Answer: NO!
    “Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?"
    Answer: NO!
    “Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin [baited trap] is for him?"
    Answer: NO!
    “Shall one take up a snare [shall a snare spring up] from the earth, and have taken [caught] nothing at all?"
    Answer: NO!
    “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?"
    Answer: NO!
    “Shall there be EVIL in a city and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?"

    Well, you know what's coming next...

    See, everyone is doing God's Will (everyone is fulfilling their purpose)...

    Why was God very sorry?

    “For ALL his[man] days are SORROWS, and his travail [experience] GRIEF…” (Ecc. 2:23).

    Man has to suffer to accuire perfection

    There was a second Eve? What do you say?

    Wrong. "Jesus could..."

    No. Jesus CAN and Jesus WILL

    What does a "Saviour do"?

    A "savior" is "one who saves."

    What does this prove?

    Satan exists for the same reason everythingelse exists...For a purpose!! God's purpose!!

    It's time to do your explaining...

    If God had You and me in mind, before the foundation of the World. Then is this not foreknowledge?? Foreknowledge contradicts free will...

    Do you remember the perfect by suffering thingy that I wrote in an earlier post?? Someone needs to read it....

    Why was Noah not like the rest of them!!?? God is the "Why"

    Christ represents the Ark read my previous posts...

    Why did God create man soleil??

    Where is the proof?

    Did Noah save the Ark or did the Ark save Noah??

    Does God need saving??

    Read my post again...

    Destroyed is not permanent...
  18. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
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    Why true love requires free will ? That is pretty simple and self explanatory.
    If someone is require to love us by force or not out of his or her free will, we will see it a genuine love. Trust will not be there.

    I did not choose my parents, the country where I was born. I did not choose my gender or my name. Still as I grew up, I became more and more free and responsible of my actions. Responsibilities come with free will and freedom to choose.

  19. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
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    "Azure, in all you posts and 1000s of words and 100s of scriptures on this thread, I am not even sure, you used the word love once !!!!"

    Azure, I take it back, I am still catching up in reading some of your posts.
    You mentioned love . I am relieved.
  20. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
    Likes Received:
    God's heart is still filled with pain. God did not wish for the fall. This is why he gave a commandment to A&E during their growth period.

    That is the course of restoration after the fall to return to God. Jesus took God's burden as a true son.

    They did no obey God

    We brought evil and sin into the world. Not God

    Adam and Eve fell before reaching perfection. So we did not.
    We were created in the image of God with the potential to reach perfection. Unfrtunately,we now have two fathers: God and Satan.

    I asolutely agree with that

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