Get thee behind me Satan!!!!

[Dream]

"Get thee behind me Satan!" a phrase spoken to Peter by Jesus.

I have not heard any Bible phrase that has been misused as many times or in as many ways as this one!

Its authoritative stance appeals to the ego, and sometimes people use it to try and boss God around (without realizing it). Some people even try to 'Command' Satan to get behind them, no matter what it means which is ridiculous! Difficult situations, sickness, death and all kinds of problems come from God, not from some competing force. Take a look at some verses in the KVJ which demonstrate that God can be Satan in sacred scripture. No, I do not say you should worship Satan, but if you worship God then appreciate God's discipline for what it is. Those who think anyone can oppose God -- those who credit snakes and demons with powers -- they worship gods they have themselves created.

Kings 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary {a 'Satan'} unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.

2 Samuel 7:14-15 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.


Witness the fulfillment of the prophecy of 2 Samuel is attested twice! Notice also that I Chronicles 21:1 & II Samuel 24:1 are accounts of the same story told two different ways. In it, the LORD is called 'Satan'. This does not mean to me that the LORD is a fallen angel but that Satan isn't.

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Oh Christian who finds this post on the internet, why should you suffer without understanding? If you need the meanings of verses, the heart of things, then accept God's discipline. Take the rod as Jonathan did & taste the honey, reading the law:

Samuel 14:27 But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.

Psalm 19:7...10 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.....More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

II Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Azure24]

Yes I agree with you Dream, many do not understand this verse. I must say this thread resembles the kind of thread I'd post...

Anyway, I am going to use your anology to give me the excuse to post mine...

Cue, a very long post...

God is not Satan, but Satan is God's tool...

Satan entered Eden as "that Old Serpent [Satan]" and deceived Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. Satan didn’t sneak into the garden against God’s will. He performed a needful task with our first parents. God knew what Satan was going to do to Adam and Eve. God did not try to prevent it. It is all part of God’s master plan.

Just as God has provided food for mankind, He has also provided food for Satan. And just what kind of food does Satan dine on? Satan dines on mankind.

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).

Man is the "dust of the earth" upon which Satan dines: "The first man [Adam] is of the earth, earthy [dust]…" (I Cor. 15:47). Man IS ‘dust.’

"…for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).

When God told the serpent devil Satan that he would eat DUST, He was telling him that he would eat MAN (adam). And this is exactly what Peter tells us in his epistle:

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5:8).

Jesus tells us in a parable that wherever His Word is heard, Satan is there to do his dirty work:

"And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown, but when they have heard, SATAN comes immediately, and takes away the word that was sown in the hearts" (Mark 4:15).


I have no doubt but that this is happening right now to some who are reading this. Some will see in their heart that these things I am teaching from the Scriptures must be true, but quickly Satan plants doubts and visions of persecution in their minds, and so some will immediately reject these grand truths because of Satan’s influence over their carnal minds. Satan is a very powerful spirit being.

I'll try and make this short...

Peter thought that he was a spiritual power that could handle any situation, when in reality he was weaker than water. He was not even converted. He rejected Jesus three times before he ever knew what he was doing or saying.

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and when thou are converted, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31).

Peter was only 53 days away from becoming converted, and from then on Peter was a powerful spiritual witness for Jesus Christ.

God uses Satan to test and decieve us, it is crucial into becoming God's image. In truth, more people are decieved by Satan than you can imagine, until the end...But we will all come to knowledge of the truth. I would normally support this with Scripture but you'll just have to take my word (for what its worth).

 

[citizenzen]

God uses Satan to test and decieve us, it is crucial into becoming God's image.

Bear with me a moment. I am not trying to be the troll...

The concept that God "uses" satan to "test and deceive us". Brings God down to a level that I have a hard time warming to.

It puts such a human face on god. (and I don't mean in the good way)

How involved is God with deceit? You might say he isn't involved since deceit is Satan's job.

But I smell a conspiracy.

 

[seattlegal]

James 1:12-15

12 Blessed is a man who endures trials, [a] because when he passes the test he will receive the crown (J) of life that He [b] has promised to those who love Him. (K)
13 No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God." For God is not tempted by evil, [c] and He Himself doesn't tempt anyone. 14 But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. (L)​

 

[Dream]

Bear with me a moment. I am not trying to be the troll...

The concept that God "uses" satan to "test and deceive us". Brings God down to a level that I have a hard time warming to.

It puts such a human face on god. (and I don't mean in the good way)

How involved is God with deceit? You might say he isn't involved since deceit is Satan's job.

But I smell a conspiracy.

Perhaps a conspiracy of posters.... Azure24 & SG have similar (if not the same) perspectives to me on this. The thing that I'm concerned about is the harmful tendency to preach 'The Devil tempts' or 'Satan, not God, has brought this trouble.' These are the basis for harmful teachings, poor preparation for life. The part where Jesus talks about wickedness coming out of 'the heart' gets overlooked. Sometimes 'the devil' is held up as an evil scary monster that constantly plots against mankind with huge infernal conspiracies, which is also a harmful teaching. Another effect is humanizing God, made possible by separating out love as God's human feature while attributing all destructive processes to Satan, an external power from God. In my experience, this teaching harms people, especially children. It is not consistent with the problems they will face in life. Even if there were no serpent, it were God who placed the tree of knowledge in the garden.

Matthew 15:17-20 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

 

[Azure24]

...The concept that God "uses" satan to "test and deceive us". Brings God down to a level that I have a hard time warming to.

Hi, I'm known here as Azure and I love the Scriptures ... I believe to except that anything is beyond God (His control), is missing the mark...

God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God:

"And the Lord said unto SATAN, Behold, he [Job] is in your hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6).

"And God saw EVERY THING that He had made [including Satan, the Adversary], and, behold, it was VERY GOOD…" [Good for its purpose](Gen. 1:31).

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).

You can clearly see here the command "Dust [mankind] shall you eat" is given to Satan from God. Satan dines on man because God commanded it.

How involved is God with deceit? You might say he isn't involved since deceit is Satan's job.

This is no different as a man who commits sin. Is God involved with the sin? But God created man, so God takes responsibility...

God does not think things, or create things from NOTHING! God does NOT operate the universe by decisions based on nothing and therefore having no cause. Therefore God is involved...

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [Greek: ‘is operating’] ALL things after [after what? His ‘free’ will?] ... After the COUNSEL of His own will" (Eph. 1:11)!

"...IN [Greek is ‘in’ not ‘by’] Him [Christ] is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth..." (Col. 1:16).

"For OUT [the Greek is ‘out’ not ‘of’] of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR [Greek is ‘for’ not ‘to’] is ALL" (Rom. 11:36).

From what you said citizenzen...That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

I would normally follow this up with the Scriptures, but in an effort to keep my posts short...

 

[citizenzen]

Hi, I'm known here as Azure and I love the Scriptures ...

Hey Azure. Around here I'm known as citizenzen. I prefer personal experience over scripture.

As a buddhist, I see everything as Buddha Nature, perfect. But if you asked me to describe Buddha Nature I'd be a fool to try. The indescribable is better left that way.

So I'm just not getting this desire to define and describe God in such narrow terms: God thinks. God is smart. God intentionally deceives. How does it fit your needs to define God in this way?

 

[winner08]

Bear with me a moment. I am not trying to be the troll...

The concept that God "uses" satan to "test and deceive us". Brings God down to a level that I have a hard time warming to.

It puts such a human face on god. (and I don't mean in the good way)

How involved is God with deceit? You might say he isn't involved since deceit is Satan's job.

But I smell a conspiracy.

God created satan and therefore created evil and uses satan for His divine purpose. check this scripture it shos God using an evil spirit.

2kings 22:21-23 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said "I will persuade him. The Lord said to him "in what way? So he said. "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. and the Lord said, You shall persuad him and also prevail. Go out and do so. therefore, look the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.

can you see? do you hear? This is the word of God. This is scripture. Scripture is the inspiered word of God and does not lie does not change. God does use evil for His purpose. Just take another look at Job. God is the one who brought Job to Satans intention. God allowed Satan to test Job. God uses satan for His intentions.

Darren.

Its ok if you don't believe the scriptures, Most people don't. They will read this scripture and say no God did not use this lying spirit for His purpose. When infact all one has to do is read the words.

 

[Nick_A]

Hey Azure. Around here I'm known as citizenzen. I prefer personal experience over scripture.

As a buddhist, I see everything as Buddha Nature, perfect. But if you asked me to describe Buddha Nature I'd be a fool to try. The indescribable is better left that way.

So I'm just not getting this desire to define and describe God in such narrow terms: God thinks. God is smart. God intentionally deceives. How does it fit your needs to define God in this way?

As a buddhist, I see everything as Buddha Nature, perfect.

I'm impressed. That's the nicest thing you ever said to me.

 

[Azure24]

Hey Azure. Around here I'm known as citizenzen. I prefer personal experience over scripture.

Good. Now that we have formally introduced ourselves, let's continue....

God is smart.

You seem to think God is stupid? Of course God is beyond human intelligence. It was my way of saying God is not sutpid...

God intentionally deceives. How does it fit your needs to define God in this way?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you were reffering to the Christian god. The god who created all...except evil. The god who failed in his creation, there is death, but that's not god's fault. god never intended for sin in this world, god never intended death in this world, god never intended injustice in this world....But guess what, there is...Too bad for god. And what can god do about it... nothing. That's right NOTHING.

Fortunately though, I was reffering to The One and True God how ever (you know the one that Jesus taught his Desciples). God has set man and Satan (his very name means adversary) AGAINST HIS OWN WILL for a period of time. But during this period when everyone goes against God’s will, God INTENDS them to do so. And when God no longer "intends" for there to be any more adversaries or enemies opposing Him or His will, He will remove all such opposition (See I Cor. 15:21-28). ALL OF GOD’S WILL, WILL THEN BE DONE!

Therefore it should come as no shock to us when we learn that even the destruction and crucifixion of His own Son (the worst sin commited) was God’s INTENTION from before He even created the world:

"For of a truth against Thy Holy Child JESUS Whom THOU [God the Father] hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel [God anointed them ALL for this purpose], were gathered together, For to do whatsoever THY HAND [the very HAND OF GOD], AND thy counsel [God works ALL according to His ‘counsel’ Eph. 1:11] determined BEFORE [God predestinated His Son’s crucifixion before the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8] to be done" (Acts 4:26-28).

And so we see that ultimately, behind the scenes, it was really God the Father Who planned and brought about the Crucifixion of His Own Son! We are all accountable for the death of His Son, because He died on OUR BEHALF and for OUR SINS which we voluntarily sinned, but it is God Himself Who is RESPONSIBLE for His Son's Death. And God takes responsibility. And He takes responsibility for EVERYTHING that happens in His creation and universe! Therefore God will bring all things back to restoration and perfection. It is so sad that this grand truth is so violently opposed by the enemies of the Cross.

How involved is God with deceit? You might say he isn't involved since deceit is Satan's job.

citizenzen...You are not a Christian are you? Good. Stay that way...The inconsonant, incongruous, inconsistent teachings of Christendom are bewildering. All my life I have heard that God hates SIN, not the SINNER. Why then, according to Christendom, doesn’t God save the sinner and abolish the sin? Wasn’t that the purpose of God in the first place? "Behold the Lamb of God, which takes [Greek: ‘is taking’] away the SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29). "And He is the propitiation [to be favorably inclined to the sinner because of the sacrifice for him -- merciful] for OUR sins: and not for ours only, but also THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).

...citizenzen can you see the similarity of these words...In fact I have highlighted them for you...

"Behold the Lamb of God, which takes [Greek: ‘is taking’] away the SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29).

and...

"…that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives THE WHOLE WORLD…" (Rev. 12:9).

The same "World" mentioned in both verses, God intended to decieve and equally (but most importantly) TO SAVE!!!

 

[path_of_one]

These formal greetings sound like a meeting. LOL I'm Path of One. I consider myself a follower of Christ's teachings, but I check most doctrine at the door (so to speak) and it seems other people variously determine whether I "fit" in the Christian category for themselves. I do go an Episcopal church, when I go.

Other than a relationship with God and Jesus (and that's a very big issue), I'm pretty Buddhist in my outlook. And I see God more like Jewish people see It than most Christians. So... do with all that what you will.

Like Citizenzen, I first look to my spiritual experience, then to scripture. I'm not sure how else to make meaning out of scripture than to experience God and see what is revealed to me. That's just the way I learn things.

I've long thought this bit about Satan being nearly a god on his own in Christian doctrine to be disturbing and inaccurate. It certainly isn't Jewish. At the same time, I don't think that we're all stumbling about in sin just because God wanted to deceive us for some reason. Any deceit we accept is created (at least in part, and I think a large part) by ourselves. We don't like giving up our egoic selves and we dislike the onerous task of changing our actions. It's much easier and more expedient to blame this Satan fellow and then figure it was all paid for by Jesus, so it's all good. I balk at all that.

I do believe that we face challenges- you can call them trials if you will, but I prefer a more positive outlook- but I think we face challenges that we have the capacity to overcome. I guess you can call those challenges- which come from within us, from others, from the life cycle itself- Satan. But personifying it and making it some god-like opposition to God doesn't seem very useful to me. My experience is that death, disease, and decay are just part of the creative process of earthly life, and can be beautiful and meaningful if we choose to make them so. The unnecessary suffering we cause is pretty awful, but we could choose otherwise. It's not Satan's fault. It's ours.

The closest thing I can believe may be the case is the Jewish idea of ha-Satan as the district attorney, fully under God's control and with the intent of providing fertile ground for spiritual growth. I can also see how demons would exist, but to me that's like saying some people sin a lot- it seems to me that non-human spirits have that capacity too. But I fail to see what that has to do with my choices.

 

[Dream]

Nice, Path of One.

From what I can tell, the posters in the thread so far agree with the opening post and are all in general agreement. The topic is mostly being approached from a fundamentalist perspective, and there seems some general alarm at the rampant abuse of the concept of Satan. What we are seeing is a 'no excuses' crowd.

 

[citizenzen]

I can also see how demons would exist, but to me that's like saying some people sin a lot- it seems to me that non-human spirits have that capacity too. But I fail to see what that has to do with my choices.

poo... maybe I should call you, po1.

Yes. That's much better.

po1,

Many of your posts fit right in to with Buddhist philosophy. You sound like a very rational believer. And I really enjoyed your description of your church in another thread. If I did attend church, I'd want to attend yours.

Demons could well be instinctual memories from millions of years of being both predator and prey as we slowly evolved into our current state. How many times have we been chased by some fearsome presence, torn apart, eaten alive and left to die mutilated?

Somehow we accept that instinct can guide and serve "lower" species, but rarely look at how it can inform and shape human life.

 

[path_of_one]

poo... maybe I should call you, po1.

Hee. You wouldn't be the first to call me poo... I hope to provide a little levity to such conversations.

Many of your posts fit right in to with Buddhist philosophy. You sound like a very rational believer. And I really enjoyed your description of your church in another thread. If I did attend church, I'd want to attend yours.

I love the church I go to in California, when I'm there. Part of it is the aesthetics of the building, the incense, the high mass... and I'm not shy to say it is so. The rest of it is that the priest is really fabulous at being interfaith based, yet we follow the traditional practice. For me, that's a nice sense of history and heritage- a heritage that is my own to claim through ancestry- that I just couldn't quite get otherwise. I love history and a sense of connection to my ancestors, so it (along with modern Druidry) gives me this. But what makes it work for me is the priest being pretty open-ended and not pushy about beliefs. The congregation is a mixed bag- slightly more than half are open-minded and love the priest (which is why he's there) and the other half find him a bit offensive and would prefer a more conservative and strong doctrinal stance. But since going to an Episcopal church is mostly about reciting prayers together and sitting/standing/kneeling at the right times, it's only in the political meetings of the church that the dissention comes about. I avoid those.

As for Buddhism, I studied Asian religions in college doing a minor in comparative religion (nearly double-major). I recognized that I was mostly Buddhist in thought right away. Whether or not my beliefs are rational seems to be dependent on my observers, though. LOL My practice leans heavily toward mysticism- just the way my personality is built- and so I have few beliefs, but a lot of experiences that I let sort of just be. My spirituality is more about this ongoing journey than about what I think about the journey, which is just commentary and I see it as fairly fluid.

But what beliefs I *do* have, they are mostly Buddhist. Except the bit about God and Christ. I'm schizophrenic on the Beliefnet quizzes, coming up alternately as Mahayana Buddhist and Liberal Quaker (Christian of a mystical bent). LOL

Demons could well be instinctual memories from millions of years of being both predator and prey as we slowly evolved into our current state. How many times have we been chased by some fearsome presence, torn apart, eaten alive and left to die mutilated?

Somehow we accept that instinct can guide and serve "lower" species, but rarely look at how it can inform and shape human life.

I look at that quite a bit. I am a cognitive anthropologist and fascinated with how humans make decisions. Usually, not very well or rationally. LOL I'm actually quite interested in how religion has traditionally kept people making better decisions for the group and the future, and why this is derailed in many instances as society expands and becomes less personal. I'm also fascinated with identity, belonging/community, and so forth. I like to see how these practically impact resource use, inequality, etc.

As for demons- I have some complicated ideas about "them" (which I think can be various sorts) based on mystical experience. But to be honest I don't find my ideas very useful for anything much, and I doubt they are very accurate on the matter.

 

[17th Angel]

"satanas get behind me!"

Oh, jesus... didn't know he swung that way... Jesus, you kinky so and so you.