Atlantis: did it exist?

IlluSionS667

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juantoo3 said:
I am not familiar with these, do you have any examples?
An example of an Egyptian diorite vase : http://www.egyptianmuseum.gov.eg/details.asp?which2=595 (the vase on the left of the image)

Diorite is an extremely hard material similar to granite. How the **** did they make such beautiful vases out of such material?

juantoo3 said:
I am not familiar with the Eddas, and only cursory info about the Romans, but "giants" seem to be a recurring concept in several cultures, not least the race of giants from which Goliath was decended. There would seem to be a thread drawn between this race and the fallen "Nephilim."
According to several websites, bones have been found of humans that would have been about 8 foot. As it is practically impossible to find info about this from regular scientific sources, I'm not aware of the credibility of these statements.

juantoo3 said:
I understand this puzzle to be a source of academic conflict. The date I have seen places the Sphinx construction at or near the construction date of the Great Pyramid, 2500 BC +/-.
The head could be carved out at 2500 BC, but not the body. The body is much older than the head, and that can be deducted from the severe erosion caused by rain (!) as I said, and by the restoration works that were done thousands of years ago.

juantoo3 said:
I have long been facinated with the Piri Re'is map.
So have I. I still wonder whether it is as accurate as some claim it is, or not...

juantoo3 said:
I have not heard of this before, can you provide anything to demonstrate?
The Maya calendar seems to have been the center of their civilisation. Why? And why did such a seemingly advanced people get extinct because of draught?

juantoo3 said:
Likewise. The subject has been a source of fascination for a long time, but struggling through the flaky stuff to get to the core material kinda put me off for a while.
My main interests just switch subjects every now and then :) But I've been way into all this, 5 years ago.

juantoo3 said:
I understand the plate tectonics/continental drift concept, but Antarctica is a bit of a puzzle in this. If the current thinking is correct, Antarctica drifted from the eastern side of Africa, which would seem to me the opposite direction from the place Plato suggested.
First of all, what did Plato really know? And how much of his story should be taken literally and how much should be read symbolically?

Second, there is a theory that can explain what happened 12000 years ago, and what will happen in the future too. There's a theory called "Earth Crust Displacement theory". It predates plate tectonics theory, and has been rejected ever since plate tectonics became school book material. However, some people suggest that earth crust displacement and plate tectonics don't exclude each other, and that both are real.

About the Earth Crust Displacement theory : http://www.lauralee.com/rflemath/ecd.htm

For Antarctica to be the lost continent, earth crust displacement should happen in a very short time. If this does take place, one may ask what's the cause? That's something Hapgood (the one who came up with this theory) and Einstein already were discussing about a few decades ago.
 

juantoo3

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IlluSionS667 said:
An example of an Egyptian diorite vase : http://www.egyptianmuseum.gov.eg/details.asp?which2=595 (the vase on the left of the image)
The link didn't work for me.

Diorite is an extremely hard material similar to granite. How the **** did they make such beautiful vases out of such material?
Yes, that has been a question. The material I looked at suggested the pyramid(s) were in part constructed of granite, a material difficult to work with modern tools, and this was done by a neolithic/copper age people?

According to several websites, bones have been found of humans that would have been about 8 foot. As it is practically impossible to find info about this from regular scientific sources, I'm not aware of the credibility of these statements.
I have only heard rumors, with nothing substantive to support, but I am not sure if it is the same rumor.

The head could be carved out at 2500 BC, but not the body. The body is much older than the head, and that can be deducted from the severe erosion caused by rain (!) as I said, and by the restoration works that were done thousands of years ago.
I was aware of the erosion, but this is the first I have heard of an ancient reconstruction.

So have I. I still wonder whether it is as accurate as some claim it is, or not...
About the Piri Re'is map, if the pictures I have seen are authentic, it appears to be quite accurate. Particularly about outlining the coast of Antarctica long before satellite navigation and geotopical imaging.

The Maya calendar seems to have been the center of their civilisation. Why? And why did such a seemingly advanced people get extinct because of draught?
I am not aware of a specific Mayan calendar, or perhaps I have them confused with the Aztecs (not impossible). The disappearance of the Maya is a mystery, but it is usually ascribed to war. The Anasazi of Arizona/New Mexico disappeared under mysterious circumstances, some attribute to draught, some attribute to being taken away by flying ships...

My main interests just switch subjects every now and then :) But I've been way into all this, 5 years ago.
I can relate, only too well.

First of all, what did Plato really know? And how much of his story should be taken literally and how much should be read symbolically?
In fairness, I haven't read Plato, so I am going by other's references. I understand him to imply Atlantis to have been "beyond the pillars of Hercules," the modern straights of Gibralter, into the Atlantic ocean. And I agree, how much is to be taken as allegory, and how much has some basis in fact?

Second, there is a theory that can explain what happened 12000 years ago, and what will happen in the future too. There's a theory called "Earth Crust Displacement theory". It predates plate tectonics theory, and has been rejected ever since plate tectonics became school book material. However, some people suggest that earth crust displacement and plate tectonics don't exclude each other, and that both are real.

About the Earth Crust Displacement theory : http://www.lauralee.com/rflemath/ecd.htm
I looked at this. I don't know that it is or should supplant Tectonics, I believe there are components already allowed for in theories concerning the core, especially concerning the magnetic pole. The material I looked into recently concerning the magnetic pole suggested that the core rotates slightly faster (or maybe slower, I forgot) than the crust. There are different components I have looked into in the past concerning crustal displacement and change, things like shallow seas disappearing, which implies that land can "disappear" as well, subject to the whims of nature.

For Antarctica to be the lost continent, earth crust displacement should happen in a very short time. If this does take place, one may ask what's the cause? That's something Hapgood (the one who came up with this theory) and Einstein already were discussing about a few decades ago.
Perhaps, but since none of us were alive, and no reputable and consistently agreeable source exists, we can only guess. Traditionally, after the flood of Noah, there came a time when the land was separated. Some suggest that this was the time Pangea broke apart, completely opposed to the conventional timeline. But it would add some weight to what you say.
 

IlluSionS667

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juantoo3 said:
The link didn't work for me.
Weird. Out here it still works.

juantoo3 said:
The material I looked at suggested the pyramid(s) were in part constructed of granite, a material difficult to work with modern tools, and this was done by a neolithic/copper age people?
Exacly. Now try making a vase out of such material.

I have only heard rumors, with nothing substantive to support, but I am not sure if it is the same rumor.

juantoo3 said:
The disappearance of the Maya is a mystery, but it is usually ascribed to war.
A couple of months ago, I saw a fascinating documentary about the disappearance of the Mayas. And they came up with some pretty good and scientific evidence that the Mayas disappeared because of a draught.

juantoo3 said:
I understand him to imply Atlantis to have been "beyond the pillars of Hercules," the modern straights of Gibralter
Antactica is beyond the pillars of Hercules... a couple of thousands of miles beyond them.
 

juantoo3

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IlluSionS667 said:
Weird. Out here it still works.

Exacly. Now try making a vase out of such material.
The link worked yesterday on another computer, but this morning it is again not working from home. At this point, I can only guess why.

That is an interesting vase. Very pretty. How was it dated, did the site say?

A couple of months ago, I saw a fascinating documentary about the disappearance of the Mayas. And they came up with some pretty good and scientific evidence that the Mayas disappeared because of a draught.
Again, I have heard a number of possibilities concerning the disappearance of the Maya, all of which seemed to be supported by artifacts. In the end, it comes down to archeological supposition, because there is not enough of a record to make emphatic statements.

In general, Native American tribes, and Central American tribes in particular, viewed war somewhat differently than we do now. While some among us still view "honor on the battlefield" as a symbolic form of manhood, Native Americans viewed it as an almost requisite rite of passage. Even the act of touching a dead enemy was viewed as powerful "medicine." Among the plains tribes, this was called "counting coup."

And while drought is not to be dismissed as a possibility, due to anomolous weather patterns evidenced elsewhere by tree ring patterns, the famine created would seem to be conducive to additional warlike activities. If you haven't got, you take from someone who has. At least, that has been a driver for war for thousands of years among many historical cultures.

Antactica is beyond the pillars of Hercules... a couple of thousands of miles beyond them.
Indeed. Even so, if Antarctica split from the eastern side of Africa, it would be much farther away than if it split from the south-eastern side of south America. Unless it had already settled, which is entirely possible. Either way, it presupposes widespread oceanic travel far beyond the typically attributed abilities of neolithic, copper and bronze age humans. Heyrdahl's Ra I expedition broke apart a few hundred miles short of its goal, I don't see vessels of reed construction successfully navigating the waters of Antarctica and returning safely. Frankly, I don't see the open canoes of the Vikings making the journey successfully either, due to the notorious weather and stormy seas associated with Antarctica. That some culture or nation may have journied there is a wonderful exercise in speculation, but from what is known and shown it does not seem likely.

Even in bringing the super-continent of Pangea back together for the sake of mental imagery, there is a great gap in the area we know as the north Atlantic. That gap leaves room for an immense number of possibilities for the situation of Atlantis proper.

I had hoped some info concerning the Phoenicians might be forthcoming, another very enigmatic society. It is purely conjecture on my part, but I cannot help but wonder if the earliest Phoenicians may have had a much closer relationship to Atlantis, provided Atlantis did actually exist. I cannot help but wonder if the Phoenicians are the people that actually built Stonehenge, for example.
 

BluejayWay

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Crete or Thera seem to be reasonable origins for the Atlantean myth

Atlantis on the island of Thera – this view is mainly based upon the theories of the archaeologists Dr Angelos Galanopoulos and Dr Spiridon Marinatos. They claim that the catastrophic volcanic eruption that affected the island of Thera in 1500 BC was in fact the doom of Atlantis.
Thera.jpg

This eruption tore off a substantial part of the island which then sank in the Aegean Sea. From that point in time the island had the shape of a sickle. Thera is situated north of the island of Crete and southeast of Greece in the Mediterranean Sea.

This map elaborated by the Greek seismologist Dr A. Galanopoulos shows the island of Thera. He suggests that the capitol of Atlantis was located in the centre of the crater.

The circular walls and channels described in the Atlantis report are clearly depicted. Consider the following excerpt from Plato‘s dialogue:

“(...)First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace.(...)“
thera_santorin.jpg

Scientists have figured out that the explosion of the volcanic eruption equalled the energy of a hundred H-bombs. Adding to Thera those parts of the island that had been torn off and, in addition, taking into account that the Egyptian priests might have made a mistake in their translation into the Greek language in that they translated the Egyptian sign for “hundred“ with “thousand“ leads to the assumption that Thera or Crete would perfectly fit into the story of Atlantis.

As far as Thera is concerned, the mistake in the translation would point out the following:



pfeil_klein.gif
</FONT>the number of inhabitants on Thera would decrease to an imaginable extent
pfeil_klein.gif
</FONT>the plain mentioned in the Atlantis report would then apply to Thera
pfeil_klein.gif
</FONT>the legendary fleet would be reduced to a few ships
pfeil_klein.gif
</FONT>the date would enter a period conceivable to mankind, that is 950 BC

Nevertheless, there remains some doubt: the signs for “hundred“ and “thousand“ look so different that they can hardly be confused.

The blast and the tidal wave caused by the explosion could could have caused the doom of this advanced civilization. Moreover, the Minoic culture on Crete is equally likely to have been hit by the tidal wave and was thus doomed to perish. Hence, stronger nations were put in a position to subjugate the people of Crete without greater effort.

linie.gif
 

BluejayWay

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...and Atlantis is back in the news again--
From the online magazine Slate:


How Often Is Atlantis Discovered?
The lost city that's always being found.
By Brendan I. Koerner
Posted Tuesday, Nov. 16, 2004, at 4:01 PM PT



Listen to this story on NPR's Day to Day.



American architect-turned-archaeologist Robert Sarmast claims to have discovered the lost city of Atlantis, off the southeast coast of Cyprus. Sarmast says his latest sonar readings reveal submerged walls that closely resemble those described by Plato, the first person to ever mention Atlantis in print. In Timaeus, written around 360 B.C., the renowned philosopher portrayed Atlantis as "a great and wonderful empire" that was destroyed by earthquakes and floods in a 24-hour span. How many times have researchers previously claimed to have discovered the vanished island-state?

Oodles—and that's not even counting the numerous psychics and crackpot "Atlantologists" who've placed the city everywhere from Nicaragua to Ceylon. The hunt began in earnest in the early 19th century, when Guatemalan Dr. Paul Felix Cabrera proposed that Hispaniola—the island where Haiti and the Dominican Republic are now found—was the site of Atlantis. Several researchers—such as the husband-and-wife team of Augustus Le Plongeon and Alice Dixon—speculated that Atlantis had been located near Mexico, based on their interpretation of Mayan codices that supposedly mentioned a lost island continent. The Mayans, the theory went, had interacted with the ancient Egyptians, who in turn passed the tale of Atlantis down to the ancient Greeks. This line of conjecture has been discredited over the years, in part because of a lack of physical evidence, and in part because it later became obvious that the early Mayanologists didn't fully understand the culture's complex hieroglyphs.

The world went atwitter in 1912 when a man calling himself Paul Schliemann published an article titled "How I Found the Lost Atlantis" in William Randolph Hearst's New York American. Schliemann claimed to be the grandson of Heinrich Schliemann, the archaeologist who excavated Troy. He wrote that his grandfather had passed down Trojan artifacts that revealed Atlantis' true location, submerged in the Atlantic Ocean between Europe and the United States. (The Azores were supposedly the tips of Atlantean mountains.) Schliemann disappeared soon after the publication of his fantastic account, however, and it's now widely viewed as one of the great "yellow journalism" hoaxes.



The British explorer Col. Percy Harrison Fawcett thought he'd solved the mystery in the 1920s, when he argued that Atlantis might have been located in the rain forests of Brazil. (He apparently based this belief on a stone idol he was given as a gift, which had reputedly come from a lost city in the Amazon.) Fawcett embarked on an expedition to find Atlantis in 1925, delving deep into the Brazilian back country; he was never seen again.​
Almost a half-century later, a pair of reputable archaeologists, A.G. Galanopoulos and Edward Bacon, published Atlantis: The Truth Behind the Legend, which suggested that Atlantis was, in fact, the Greek island of Santorini. The island's Minoan population, they noted, was likely wiped out by a massive volcanic eruption circa 1450 B.C., a cataclysm that may have inspired Plato's tales of Atlantis being wiped out by floods. (Tsunamis, or gigantic tidal waves, are a direct aftereffect of volcanic eruptions that occur near water.)

A Soviet oceanographer added his own theory to the pile in 1979, when he charted a sunken plateau about 560 miles off the western coast of Portugal. He claimed to have "spotted almost clearly half-demolished walls and giant stairs" and added that the geological shape of the site closely paralleled that described by Plato. The last word came in 1985, when a piece of marble recovered from the ocean was supposedly being taken to the Soviet Academy of Sciences for top-level analysis. And that, apparently, was the end of the Soviets' involvement in the search.

The past year has been a particularly active one for Atlantologists. Aside from Sarmast's discovery, a German physicist, Rainer Kuehne, claimed in June that Atlantis was merely a region in southern Spain, near Cadiz. He based his conclusion on satellite imagery, which reveals a large marshy area surrounded by what appears to be concentric rings of Earth or water—geographic details that Plato noted.

Another European scientist, Swedish geographer Ulf Erlingsson, argued earlier this year that Atlantis wasn't near the Mediterranean at all but was actually Ireland. He says the Emerald Isle's size syncs up nicely with Plato's estimate and that the destruction myth was inspired by the submerging of Dogger Bank, a North Sea shoal, around 6100 B.C.



Brendan I. Koerner is a contributing editor at Wired and a fellow at the New America Foundation.
 

iBrian

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Thanks for raising the topic again - my bad on not reporting on this. :)

Yes, yet another claim of Atlantic surfaces - you can read a more detailed report here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4011545.stm

There was actually a claim in June that Atlantis was a part of southern Spain that flooded - more on that here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3766863.stm

I have to admit, I find the whole obsession with Plato's comments on Atlantis to be very strange indeed. Read ancient sources on any topic of exotic places from the period, and most anything is filled with mythology, allegory, analogy, propaganda, and general hearsay. Often the problem is about trying to separate the germ of truth from the chaff that builds up over it. In the instance of Atlantis, I can't help but feel that an obsessive and wayward literalism of interpretation has been coupled with Atlantis as an object of wish-fulfillment, that will always look different to whomever is looking for it. What is worse, is that the modern mythology of aliens and Atlanteans as some kind of alien race dangerously discredit any historical investigation of the matter, so perhaps it would be much much better if researchers would focus more on the basic archaeological evidence of flooded settlements, and worry about claims of identification later.

2c. :)
 

alexa

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Damn with all this canadienne press ! :D They wrote only a few lines about Robert Sarmast's discovery. They don't spare space for crimes and they are chary of words with something interesting.:p
 

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My pea brain logic says that Atlantis must be connected to the Atlantic ocean.

My son who never took any interest in spiritual things, had his first experience with an Atlantean guide age 15, he found it quite scarry because he witnessed the flood. He knew nothing of these terms, he drew a map and Atlantis was to the left, a place called Sirius was in the middle and Elmuria was to the right and it was all one land mass. I have no idea if this is truth. Interesting that under usual circumstances his spelling and grammer was awful but yet with these words received each word was perfect. So especially interesting for me that he spelt Lemuria, Elmuria. Makes a lot more sense to me bearing in mind the importance of EL.

Fascinating how strongly the Canarians feel about their historical connection to Atlantis that volcanic part of the coast of Spain and Africa.

I am convinced that all will be revealed to us when we are ready to hear it.
In a past life healing experience, after the floods most went on to land but yet we were able to live and breathe quite normally in the sea, some stayed behind in the sea in the underwater temples. Some people on other forums have questioned whether these beings became dolphins......

Sacredstar
 

alexa

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The Story of Atlantis

Over 11,000 years ago there existed an island nation located in the middle of the Atlantic ocean populated by a noble and powerful race. The people of this land possessed great wealth thanks to the natural resources found throughout their island. The island was a center for trade and commerce. The rulers of this land held sway over the people and land of their own island and well into Europe and Africa.

This was the island of Atlantis.

Atlantis was the domain of Poseidon, god of the sea. When Poseidon fell in love with a mortal woman, Cleito, he created a dwelling at the top of a hill near the middle of the island and surrounded the dwelling with rings of water and land to protect her.

Cleito gave birth to five sets of twin boys who became the first rulers of Atlantis. The island was divided among the brothers with the eldest, Atlas, first King of Atlantis, being given control over the central hill and surrounding areas.
At the top of the central hill, a temple was built to honor Poseidon which housed a giant gold statue of Poseidon riding a chariot pulled by winged horses. It was here that the rulers of Atlantis would come to discuss laws, pass judgments, and pay tribute to Poseidon..

To facilitate travel and trade, a water canal was cut through of the rings of land and water running south for 5.5 miles (~9 km) to the sea.

The city of Atlantis sat just outside the outer ring of water and spread across the plain covering a circle of 11 miles (1.7 km). This was a densely populated area where the majority of the population lived.

Beyond the city lay a fertile plain 330 miles (530 km) long and 110 miles (190 km) wide surrounded by another canal used to collect water from the rivers and streams of the mountains. The climate was such that two harvests were possible each year. One in the winter fed by the rains and one in the summer fed by irrigation from the canal.

Surrounding the plain to the north were mountains which soared to the skies. Villages, lakes, rivers, and meadows dotted the mountains.

Besides the harvests, the island provided all kinds of herbs, fruits, and nuts. An abundance of animals, including elephants, roamed the island.
For generations the Atlanteans lived simple, virtuous lives. But slowly they began to change. Greed and power began to corrupt them. When Zeus saw the immorality of the Atlanteans he gathered the other gods to determine a suitable punishment.

Soon, in one violent surge it was gone. The island of Atlantis, its people, and its memory were swallowed by the sea.

This is a summary of the story told by Plato around 360 BC in his dialogues Timaeus and Critias. These writings of Plato are the only specific known references to Atlantis. They have prompted controversy and debate for over two thousand years.

Source : http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/religionmythology/
 

iBrian

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So if people keep chasing a literal Atlantis, why not a literal Zeus and Poseidon??
 

alexa

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Hmm. I Have met a guy not long time ago who pretends the greek gods are still the best and christianity has no value at all. As you see, there are all kind of people. I only hope there are not many like him in this world.
 

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Dear Alexa

Thank you for sharing....interesting that Plato said it went in one go, I read somewhere that there were warnings and two parts went first. Lets face it we all get warnings and wake up calls but the question is do we listen to them? Did the Atlanteans? Or were they as arrogant as humankind IS today?

Dear Brian

LOL

Sacredstar
 

alexa

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Humankind has a new chance to get better with every new born.The technology and science are in continually progress, but I don't believe people nowadays are very different from those, let's say 10 000 ago. We face the same problem : we have to learn to get rid of our ego, in order to help the others, too. Some of us will die and still keep their ego unchanged. Maybe this is only our human nature. Who knows ?

By the way, I'm kind of stuburn type, but this helps me a lot in my job to face the stress and buggers. :D
 

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Dear Alexa

Ah well we differ here, I do feel the fall down the dimensions of consciousness and ego is another level of consciousness found in the solar plexus. Down the ages people have been programmed to believe that ego is bad and this goes back to the time of Enoch. But I have learnt that ego is the spiritual being 'Expressing GOD's Omnipotence'. In my domain it is the level of consciousness that is I AM Power, and like all things it is about balance and what we choose to do with that powerful energy. The worst thing people can do is to judge the ego because when doing so they are judging GOD and that keeps us in separation. All is divine but what do we choose to do with that divinity?

The solar plexus also sits inside the Hara, what the east call the 'Shrine of the Divine' hence why all martial arts and some CM like Shiatsu works from here.

Also it is being recognised by many people who are working with the new world children, that they are arriving at a much higher level of consciousness then ourselves.

So a different perspective and experience.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 

alexa

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Sacredstar said:
The worst thing people can do is to judge the ego because when doing so they are judging GOD and that keeps us in separation. All is divine but what do we choose to do with that divinity?
I'm afraid I do not understand your logic. Do you mean the ego is equal to God ? You cannot keep your ego if you want to be close to God.
 

iBrian

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I suspect there are different interpretations of "ego" at play here. :)
 

Sacredstar

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Dear Alexa

alexa said:
Do you mean the ego is equal to God ? You cannot keep your ego if you want to be close to God.

Well that is what the Guru's taught down the ages but it is good to think for oneself! it goes back to ancient times when Enoch misconstrued the teachings from GOD.

I do not speak from logic but from a divine revelation from GOD.

Here is the link it was received in September 2002.
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=451

being love

Sacredstar
 
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