Can Gays be Cured?

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Postmaster, Apr 25, 2009.

  1. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    MW, you cleverly left out some key parts of that article. Your cut and paste job doesn't tell the whole story, and a few unanswered questions would probably prove even more revealing.

    Here's the part of the article that MW referred to, with key aspects left intact...

    The zoo made headlines in 2005 over plans to "test" the sexual orientation of penguins with homosexual traits.

    Three pairs of male penguins had been seen attempting to mate with each other and trying to hatch offspring from stones.

    The zoo flew in four females in a bid to get the endangered birds to reproduce - but quickly abandoned the scheme after causing outrage among gay rights activists, who accused it of interfering in the animals' behaviour.


    From MW's edited version (and even from the fuller story) one might get the impression that there were no female penguins at all for the male penguins to mate with, and like sex-starved prison inmates, they were forced to find their jollies in the company of each other.

    I'd like to know what the population of penguins was at the time. Were there unmated females available for these males? I'd be quite willing to bet that there were and that the four females being flown in were an attempt to see if a new flock of feminine mystique might entice these males when the local girls failed to get a rise.

    Before we pin an extinction event on the homosexual community, perhaps it would be wise to know the whole story. Don't you think that would be a good idea, MW?
     
  2. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    It was aimed less at you (though the shoe fits you as well) then the entire community of gay bashers that continually snipe and demean homosexuals.

    I have no idea what it must be like to grow up gay and endure this barrage of insults, but I admire the restraint that bob x has shown.

    I doubt I'd manage to be as patient and kind.
     
  3. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    A little more digging revealed this...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4264913.stm

    Only one baby Humboldt penguin has been born at the zoo, which has six males and four females, Der Spiegel reports.

    In which case, the zoo director should have told any protesters to mind their own flock of penguins and then flown the four birds in and let nature take its course.

    MW, homosexuals (and myself) are not infallible. But they are fighting for fundamental human rights that are still being denied to them. They are fighting for respect and dignity that is still being withheld. So I can understand when they occasionally overreact to a story like this one.

    If overreaction were a crime, every person on Earth would be serving time.

    I'd probably be a lifer... and having sex with men.
     
  4. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    You are mistaken. The fact that we "get jiggy for just the fun of it" is one of our uniquely human traits, dating back far before the invention of birth control: as I pointed out before, Homo sapiens has completely abolished the estrus cycle, which ties sexuality completely to procreation in most mammalian species. Non-procreative sexuality is part of the emotional package, including the capacity for empathy, and "love" in all its multifarious forms, which makes us social creatures, who care for each other and not only for our own offspring. Social species are at an immense evolutionary advantage over non-social species.

    I teach school; Michelangelo created inspiring artworks; Turing fought the Nazis and invented the computer; many people who do not personally procreate nonetheless contribute to the survival of the species by increasing the prosperity of future generations. Our capacity to love has everything to do with why we care enough about other people to act in such ways. And our sexuality has everything to do with why we have the capacity to love.
     
  5. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    sally's or mine? well, i'm not one to poke my nose where it's not designed by the Creator (that's a joke) to go. i guess all i'm trying to do here is lower the temperature a little between two people i've come to like and respect, also to point out to both sides that traditionalist religion need not actually necessarily mean conflict and friction over homosexuality.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  6. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Are you on drugs? No really, it's a serious question.

    Get a bloody life and go spend some time on the conspiracy theory threads with Tao, you'll both get along famously ... I posted the title of the article 'Gay penguins' rear adopted chick (which kinda goes against my 'not natural' argument ... dontcha think), the part of the article relevent to my question and the link to the full article ... maybe it's too tiring for you to click your mouse on the link?



    'Gay penguins' rear adopted chick


    IF THERE WERE NO FEMALES THEN WHERE DID THE CHICK COME FROM ... DOH

    which I think a 5 year old could tell you was the point I was making, it takes a boy penguin and a girl penguin to make a baby penguin ... honestly, look it up, they don't really get delivered by stalk.

    Hey no worries here, Bob has branded me a lump in a sack, a racist and a thief, so what's a rampant homophobic bustard among friends.

    Don't you find it even mildly curious that if I am the rampant homophobic you suggest I would offer to open my home to Bobx so he can come and experience what Muslim life is really like and he can meet the local gay community who live quite peacefully and unmolested (verbally or physically) in the local community?

    Hey just drape a flimsy bit of cloth on your face and see the barrage of insults that arrive from Bob's corner. Believe me he is more than capable of giving as good as he gets.

    With your attitude you'd have to become deeply religious and pray they would fancy you. ;)

    Bob half of the thrust of this thread has been pointing to the numerous species that have recreational and homosexual sex, I just posted the link to such a story and now it is a uniquely human trait? Hmmm never mind.

    Agreed and I have great respect for such people but can we also agree that in order for humans to naturally procreate it takes a male and a female of our species?

    Woops ... move along there, nothing to see here.
     
  7. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    So I'll give you a serious answer: no.

    As for being too lazy to click on the link, did you not notice that I provided more of the story in my post? And did you not notice that I then posted a follow-up that actually seemed to confirm your side of the argument, that gay groups actually did over-react to this situation? Did you notice that I posted a link to that story? Were you too lazy to click on it?

    I asked for the full story. There's nothing drug-addled about that. And I'm still going to do a little more digging. There's something amiss. The story doesn't pass the smell test and I'm going to sniff around a little more and post my findings here. Don't forget to click on the links.
     
  8. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    The aspect of this story that "smells funny" to me can be summed up in this quote from a news story in The Guardian, Tuesday 15 February 2005...

    Females flown in to p-p-p-pick up 'gay' penguins | World news | The Guardian

    "All sorts of gay and lesbian associations have been emailing and calling in to protest," a spokesman for Bremerhaven's Zoo on the Sea in north-western Germany said.

    Who are these gay and lesbian associations? And why has this issue caused them to protest so vehemently? That's what I am going to look into. That's the part that doesn't smell right to me.

    In the meantime, I thought that this part of the article (which you can read by clicking the link above) was quite interesting...

    The experiment goes to the heart of a debate among biologists as to whether homosexuality exists in the animal world.

    Scientists have found numerous examples of same-sex behaviour in emus, dolphins and pigs, while same-sex couples in other penguin species are also well documented. They include Eric and Dora, two King penguins who live together in Edinburgh Zoo.


    Citizenzen, reporting in.
     
  9. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    Can we also agree that the human species is not suffering from any shortage of breeding pairs, and has no need to recruit those who are not naturally designed for procreation?
    In most social species, actually, it is only a tiny minority who procreate (one pair out of a dozen or so in a wolf-pack; one pair out of many thousands in a beehive or anthill). If there is anything odd about humans, among the social species, it is that our breeding rate is way too high. The rate worked out right, of course, when we were much more subject to plagues and famines; now that we have used our God-given intelligence to bring down the death rate, we need to use our intelligence to control the birth rate more effectively than we have been managing to do.
     
  10. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    During my lunch hour I found a couple things about the great penquin controversy...

    From ananova.com

    Gay penguins won't go straight
    A German zoo's plans to tempt its gay penguins to go straight by importing more females has been declared a failure. The female penguins were flown in especially from Sweden in an effort to encourage the Humboldt penguins at the Bremerhaven Zoo to reproduce. But the six homosexual penguins showed no interest in their new female companions and remained faithful to each other.

    Zoo Director Heike Kueck said: "The relationships were apparently too strong."

    A keeper confirmed that the male couples had adopted rocks which they were guarding like eggs in their caves. The zoo has said that it will try again in Spring 2006, because the penguins are an endangered species and need to be encouraged to breed.



    And from: Animal nature: is conversion therapy any more acceptable for gay penguins than it is for humans? - Free Online Library

    Animal Nature: Is conversion therapy any more acceptable for gay penguins than it is for humans?

    By Paul VanDeCarr
    The Advocate, March 29, 2005

    Defending the right of gays to be who they are doesn't stop at the gates to the wild kingdom. A group of European gay activists wrote an open letter in February to the Bremerhaven Zoo in northern Germany demanding that the zoo halt plans to try to turn three male pairs of Humboldt penguins straight with "organized and forced harassment through female seductresses."

    On the grounds that the birds are an endangered species, the zoo flew in four female penguins from Sweden in an attempt to coax the gays into mating. But the same-sex couples weren't interested, and a high-prone protest ensued, leading zoo director Heike Kuck to declare that all animals could "live here as they please."

    The controversy prompted Coati Planck, advocacy director for the Washington, D.C.-based Family Pride Coalition, to draw some parallels. "The zoo said they were trying to encourage the penguins to breed," she said. "Gay and lesbian people have been hearing the same thing [from their families]: 'We don't want to change you, we just want grandchildren.' Apparently conversion therapy doesn't work any better for penguins than it does for humans."

    Bremerhaven Zoo officials could have learned that lesson the easy way had they consulted with their colleagues at the Central Park Zoo in New York City, where several same-sex penguin pairs have been happily getting it on--displaying "ecstatic behavior," in zoological terms--for years. Roy and Silo, the most famous of the gay penguin couples, made a splash last year when they celebrated their sixth anniversary. "The fact that there have been same-sex pairings suggests that we were managing the collection [of penguins] naturally enough that the full range of behaviors were possible," said zoo director Dan Wharton.

    In fact, same-sex pairings in nature are common, said Marlene Zuk, a professor of biology at the University of California, Riverside, and the author of Sexual Selections: What We Can and Can't Learn About Sex From Animals. Animals exhibit all kinds of sexual behaviors--homo, hetero, monogamous, and nonmonogamous--even having sex to resolve conflicts, she said. "Sexuality in animals, just like sexuality in people, is about more than just making babies," she said.

    As for the Swedish seductresses, new male penguins have been brought in to attend to their needs.
     
  11. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    So thanks MW for providing me the impetus to look into this issue. I hope you learned something too. I'll repeat it, just in case you missed it...

    In fact, same-sex pairings in nature are common, said Marlene Zuk, a professor of biology at the University of California, Riverside, and the author of Sexual Selections: What We Can and Can't Learn About Sex From Animals. Animals exhibit all kinds of sexual behaviors--homo, hetero, monogamous, and nonmonogamous--even having sex to resolve conflicts, she said. "Sexuality in animals, just like sexuality in people, is about more than just making babies," she said.
     
  12. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    Oh and I almost forgot...

    The homosexual "groups" that advocated for the penguins have a website: Rainbow.Online - www.rainbow.at

    Unfortunately, I don't speak German, but anybody interested may find something here if you dig deep enough.
     
  13. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    This is funny.
    The penguins have just been incarcerated for too long.
    From what I have seen, any group, military, religious, prisoners, which are segregated by gender and forced to spend long amounts of time with only one sex tends to have this kind of behavior occur.
    People need affection, and if they can't get what is natural, then the "any port in a storm" philosophy kicks in.

    We should have a thread: "can religious and other ideological zealots be cured".
     
  14. Postmaster

    Postmaster Well-Known Member

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  15. Dream

    Dream Well-Known Member

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    You can get any page translated from German at altavista.com and probably at bing.com if its in your country yet. Here is your page, auto-translated:

    Translation result for http://www.rainbow.at/
     
  16. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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  17. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    I'm afraid I can't ever agree with you on this subject because your physical body is naturally designed to fit together with a female physical body. I accept that you do not feel emotionally or sexually drawn to women but I will never agree that your body should pair with someone of the same gender.

    I do agree that unless we find a way to make the world a lot bigger and learn not to use so many of it's resources then yes we must control birth rates.

    I think we should just agree to disagree Bobx, shake hands and go scoff some cream cakes over a nice cup of latte.
     
  18. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    You can sip your latte in the corner by yourself.

    It's pretty hard to kiss and make up with bigotry, no matter how politely it extends its hand.
     
  19. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    Well, I would try to find some way to sit by Sally and drink our lattes together, although if she insisted on keeping her face covered, I would find it difficult to carry on a normal conversation with her.
    I would also find it difficult to "shake hands" with someone who thinks my body is more important than my soul in determining what I "should" do.
     
  20. Penguin

    Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Nice to see Penguins getting a mention :)
     

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