Can Gays be Cured?

Muslimwoman

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Hi Muslimwoman, I have been reading some of your posts and you are clearly a very intelligent woman. So just out of curiousity, do you mean that one's innate sexuality, be it heterosexual or homosexual is a choice ? And also, could you please explain how you know that this is their choice and not some inherent genetic character trait ? Have you studied the genetics of homosexuality ?

Thanks.

Hi Avi

As I said earlier in this thread:

"At the end of the day science is yet to show whether homosexuality is an illness, an altered gene, an unconcious psychological decision, a taught behaviour, a lifestyle choice or whatever"

so the answer is we just don't know. My personal feeling is that I choose my sexuality and therefore assume that others do, I base it on my own experiences as there is no "proof" to tell me otherwise.
 

Avi

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so the answer is we just don't know. My personal feeling is that I choose my sexuality and therefore assume that others do, I base it on my own experiences as there is no "proof" to tell me otherwise.

You say that you "choose your sexuality". But how do you know that others are not more compelled in that area ? Also, if "we just don't know", then why would you want to judge and criticise someone else's orientation ? Especially knowing that this group has been harassed and discriminated against widely ? Haven't you been subject to these acts as a minority (certainly women have been treated as a minority) ? As a Jew, I have been treated this way and I can identify with these issues, that is why I am very supportive of minority groups, whether they are self-selected or not.
 

bob x

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Tao says he sees the gays in his villiage acting like Vogue-ing Bonobo's on E... I live 200 miles away, and most of the gays in my villiage are exactly the same- is there just the one bad gay gang, promiscuous, drug taking travelling queens who visit the pubs and clubs in different cities on a mission to make the good gays look bad? come on... stereotypes exist because ppl really do act in such ways... hes not a bigot for pointing it out...
Well, the subgroup who go to bars does not make for a good sampling of any group. It has been a long time since I went to a gay bar (not my cup of ale so to speak), but my impression is that those who do are mostly either a) looking to get laid that night (as many straights who hang out at other bars are), or b) looking for a place where they can be themselves and not have to worry about the straights. Tao talked about places that didn't used to be gay bars but where gays were taking over; so perhaps even without any provocation from his side he was getting non-subtle hints that they would just as soon he went away.

Myself, I am not really into segregating myself away from straights (I have moved to the San Francisco Bay Area, sure, but have no interest in moving to Castro Street or any such "gay ghetto"), as Q and Greymare can attest. As for those who do want to segregate themselves, I would wish a) that you would not assume that they represent "all" or even "most" gay people, and b) that you would try to understand why they would feel that way.

I suppose on the flip side I could make a better effort to understand why some women, whether or not Muslim, would want to wall themselves off from men and not be bothered by them, at least sometimes. We all sometimes just need our own space.
BobX... you made me laugh out loud when you said... "it hurts my heart", etc etc... hahaahahaaa... hilarity to the max...
These are my deepest and most sacred feelings, and to say they should be rooted out of me does cut me to the heart. Go ahead, mock and laugh.
ur own bigotry is cancelled out because u like bum-love...
Actually, I don't. It is a common misconception that all gays are into anal sex (or that no straights are!)
in my opinion, being gay is a choice...
Your opinion is based on ignorance. I'm the one who knows. You can believe me when I tell you, or call me a liar.

You need to understand that Bob and I both have strong opinions about certain topics and in ways are just as bad as each other, as we have both proved time and again on this forum. Just because we do not like something we each do, doesn't mean we dislike each other as people.
This is true. When we stay away from veils and sexuality, we often find a lot of agreement, and can at least talk in a friendly manner.
Actually I believe your soul is immensely more important than your body
No you don't. You believe that I ought to be with a woman rather than a man based strictly on my body parts, regardless of my soul. But for me to marry a woman whom I could not possibly have any deep feelings for, just to use her for loveless mechanical sex and procreation, would be a very grave sin: I have known gay men who did such a thing, thinking it was what they ought to do; the quicker that such a pseudo-marriage is ended, the less grief for all concerned.
Oh come now Bobx, you can hardly post such personal information about yourself on an open public forum and then try to suggest only people who agree with you should comment.
I ask for understanding, which you refuse to give me. I never asked for your advice, which you insist on giving.
What I was defending is a persons right to express their opinion that the act of homosexuality, as a sexual act, is a choice and is wrong.
Which is calling me a liar, although I am being honest, and accusing me of wrong, when I have done no wrong to you or anyone else. It is of course your legal right to say such things, but morally, no, there is nothing right at all about it.
Great picture Q, not a single tenticle or forked tail in sight. I'm going to guess Bob is the chap with glasses (not based on sexual preference).
Correct. Greymare is the darker-haired lady, with Q right behind her.
My personal feeling is that I choose my sexuality
You are bisexual, and that is not something that you choose about yourself, although it your choice which direction of attraction you pursue (or both, or neither). I am not.
and therefore assume that others do, I base it on my own experiences as there is no "proof" to tell me otherwise.
Of course you do not have to believe others when they tell you they are not like you. But don't pretend there is nothing offensive about calling people liars.
 

Tao_Equus

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Bob, eats Chinese and was willing to spend an evening with me and mine (and Greymare), listening to dittys from "Blackthorn" in an Irish pub in Detroit...he was also quite willing to discuss just about everything under the sun, and was a pleasure to spend time with...yeah he's there, but you couldn't tell...lol

v/r

Q
If that is Bob in the glasses then I think it is Q's brother? behind his left shoulder looking very surprised... just where is Bobs left hand going? The lady in front seeing bobs enthusiasm has draped a red napkin over Bobs erm... enthusiasm. Its all in the picture :p:D
 

Quahom1

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If that is Bob in the glasses then I think it is Q's brother? behind his left shoulder looking very surprised... just where is Bobs left hand going? The lady in front seeing bobs enthusiasm has draped a red napkin over Bobs erm... enthusiasm. Its all in the picture :p:D
Q's brother is to the left. Cousin is next to Q in the back, and the wives are in front (well, and one wife to be). We all are smiling because we were enjoying each other's company in a pub, listening to good music and funny wit by the band. Oh, and we just got done singing (the whole damn pub) "Waltzing Matilda"...
 

Tao_Equus

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Q's brother is to the left. Cousin is next to Q in the back, and the wives are in front (well, and one wife to be). We all are smiling because we were enjoying each other's company in a pub, listening to good music and funny wit by the band. Oh, and we just got done singing (the whole damn pub) "Waltzing Matilda"...

Would loved to have been there too :)
 

bob x

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Yes, Tao, it might improve relations among us considerably. Quahom and I had not seen eye-to-eye at all prior to that.
 

Francis king

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BobX... I am writing this after seeing the uploaded photo, and making assumptions about the kind of person you are based on your image...

u look like a... christian, or a history teacher, and generally inoffensive, so on reflection I should apologise for the bum-love comment, as it was a low blow, but as I was intending to be derogatory and imflammatory I won't... I thought it was a fine use of words, personally, but I am British, and from the poor North, and common, and cannot do much about my coarse arrogance and ignorance, so intrinsic to my inner being...

I agree with you about the bars though- the straight bars and clubs are just the same- it's not a gay thing, but a drunk/drugged up young ppl thing... all the gay men I know except one, is just that way... that's not to say they're not good people, or not politically motivated, or ill-educated, just that they exist- and, as well as this, most of the gay people I know are under 40, and black and bright pink rather than lavender... of the old gays I know, just two I'm afraid, one fem, one man, both of them have grown out of the whole bar scene and like long term relationships and wouldn't dream of cheating... they are just as conventional as straights of the same age and class...

I apologise for "mocking you", I wanted to provoke you, but I didn't really want to hurt you, so am sorry for that. My problem is, I find it difficult to accept that ur sexuality, which u don't even seem to indulge in much physically is so pivotal to ur existence...

most the of gay people I know are what I call "ultra-gay". They are not extremists, but everything, for them, is connected to being gay. The worst for this, in my world, are the young lesbians. I can understand this kind of behaviour in the young and newly out, but some people build whole careers on something so basic as who they like to bed (or have, deep meaningful relationships with, etc).

I find this way of thinking illogical, and I wonder sometimes if we saw this kind of group-think behaviour in a religious group whether we would call them a cult. We probably would. Hence me poking fun at what I perceive to be your affectation.

I have been this way myself- for me, everything was about class. I railed against the oppressors, saw discrimination everywhere I turned. Thinking this way is foolish and seperates us from the rest of humanity. We selectively self-segregate and then wail about being ghetto-ized.

This is not aimed as a personal criticism, or veiled statements as to your own motivations. Thought I'd clarify that. Just my thoughts after reading your reply.

I believe what you say is your truth, but I do not believe it is the truth.

I do not think women are somehow naturally predisposed to bi-sexuality. Sex is just an act, an often opportunistic, culturally biased, recreational pursuit, beyond intentional procreation. Sexuality is a psychological construct. Beyond religion, beyond politics, beyond society, this concept of what sexuality is doesn't exist. If that is true, then being "gay" is a choice, much the same way as "straight" or "christian" or "buddhist" is a choice. We may feel that this "ism" is the core of us, but is it, or is it something we have borrowed from others and tried to make our own?

I am not saying your choice, or my choice, is wrong, or you should be more like me. I wanted to poke fun at you because I thought you were playing the wounded drama-queen and using loaded language to garner support for your arguement, in much the same way we all do... I didn't actually want to wound you, just pull your jumper around your head...

...to prove I bear you no ill-will, I will share something with you (and about a million others in cyber-space)

As choices go, I am most "turned on" by the idea of shagging panthers. My main problem in indulging my beastial fantasies is the issue of consent, and so I remain a virgin, so to speak. Recently I have discovered that there are people who, because of a genetic mutation, are completely covered in hair. They call them wolf-people. I want one, and am prepared to travel.

Feel free to openly deride me about this, of course. I would do the same to you if you revealed you had a thing for wolf-people...
 

Janz

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Yes, Tao, it might improve relations among us considerably. Quahom and I had not seen eye-to-eye at all prior to that.

Yes, I firmly believe that sitting down (face to face without masks or veils) with people you violently disagree with and breaking bread is to humanize an issue. It is so easy to attack each other in these forums behind the anonymity of the internet. We can agree to disagree with respect and civility when there is understanding of walking a mile in another's shoes.

As far as the photo goes here was my first thoughts on who was who:
I thought Q was Greymare's husband.
Bob was Q.
Q's brother was Bob.
Q's cousin was Bob's partner...I guess because of the hand on the shoulder. ;) :D
I recognized Grey from her photo album and Q's wife looks very much like one of my long lost best friends.

Soooooo from my experiences, most of my gay and lesbian friends range from ages 30-50 and none of them are like what Francis and Tao describe. As far as my younger lesbian friends go, yes they are passionate about their identity as gay women. Being a lesbian defines the core of their being..it is not just about a sexual choice or preference. Just like Christians and other people of faith describe their passionate feelings about following Jesus, Allah, or whomever their God may be.

Of course, I also have several Gay Christian friends who are members of the Metropolitan Community Church and I admire them for that is not an easy path to walk.
Metropolitan Community Churches | HomePage

Speaking of courageous gay women of faith, have any of you hear of Irshad Manji? She is a Muslim who is also a lesbian and an amazing human being. Here is a link to her blog and I invite all of you to spend some time reading her thoughts. You may not agree with everything she says but I find her to be a compelling thinker: she will surprise and challenge all your assumptions.

Irshad Manji blog and official website about-irshad
 

citizenzen

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It is so easy to attack each other in these forums behind the anonymity of the internet.

While anonymity is one aspect of this impersonal mode of communication, there's a few others that I'd like to mention as well.

Very rarely do we in our personal lives ask people to tell their innermost truths, immediately, without introduction or explanation as to who we are or how our lives have transpired. Yet in a forum that's immediately where we go. While anonymity may create a certain coldness to the medium, it also encourages forthrightness and truth telling on a scale rarely encountered face-to-face.

What we miss are the myriad of interpersonal cues that ease interaction in the flesh: the glance, the chuckle, the stroke, the smile that says even though we may disagree, I still acknowledge your presence and worth. I have little doubt that some of the people that I feel more "aligned" with in this forum would turn me off if we met, and some that I never find agreement with I'd feel warm toward. It's always a good idea to keep in mind how limited this perspective is.

My first rule of forum etiquette (as if I had any): hold no grudges. Followed closely by my second rule: take no prisoners. I've probably played a few too many video games in my life, but a forum to me is a chance to spar verbally and logically. It's an exercise in speech and debate, an opportunity to put to the test the concepts that we hold dear and see how they survive in the heat of battle.

For those looking for "connections" or friendship, I wish you good luck... with the other folks here. While I try not to be unkind, I'm not here to be your buddy. If I agree with you, I'll let you know. And if I disagree with you, I promise the same. The opportunity that we have here is to hone each other to finer points, to polish each other by the bump and grind of give and take. And to challenge each other to reach beyond our complacent, safe concepts to reach something deeper and more meaningful.

Sorry about the bruises. They'll go away in time.

Peace out to all my IO homies... even the one's who drive me crazy.
57.gif
 

nativeastral

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martial artists can be deceptive but this ones perceptive:cool:

l can separate the act from the actor; l agree with MW and l love lattes:)

pure biological yearnings with no intellectual insight whatsover;)

live and let love:D
 

Quahom1

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As far as the photo goes here was my first thoughts on who was who:
I thought Q was Greymare's husband.
Bob was Q.
Q's brother was Bob.
Q's cousin was Bob's partner...I guess because of the hand on the shoulder. ;) :D
I recognized Grey from her photo album and Q's wife looks very much like one of my long lost best friends.

Lol, I'm not married, but Grey is about to become my wife, and I'm the one behind her...
 

Penguin

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Dont think I'm gay or anything....but nice to see our penguin back :)

Thanks Tao, nice to be missed. You and 17th are the only one's who noticed :( I have been away for awhile, mulling things over.
You've sort of grown on me over time (don't think i'm gay or anything) lol
Cheers.

Apologies all, back to the topic now....................................
 

Janz

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Lol, I'm not married, but Grey is about to become my wife, and I'm the one behind her...

Well then, the lovely lady who is standing beside Bob (who I thought was you) looks like a long lost friend of mine. BTW, Congrats to you and Grey..may you live long and prosper!! :)
 
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