Can Gays be Cured?

Just a few of several times this subject of surrender to genetic predisposition has come up:

Kindest Regards, all!

Yesterday, I stumbled on an interesting line of genetic science I had not heard of before. Did a little research today, haven't gone through everything I printed out yet. Seems this train of thought has been around since about 2001, and has developed a bit of a following in certain scientific circles (with at least one website and magazine devoted to it).

Seems the concept is rather like the "nurture" side of the nature vs. nuture debate, amped with steroids. Seems to me this opens a lot of moral questions unto itself, not least a rehash of the tired old Social Darwinism train of thought. Afterall, if you are not properly nourished, because of poverty or whatever, then you are substandard, compared with where you could have been had circumstances been different. Remarkably, many of these "influences" are hereditary without being genetic. That is, the genome is not the complete story of what "makes" us.

One thought that crossed my mind, as vindication for my position in a much earlier discussion, is that even if a "gay" gene does exist (which has yet to be proven), it is environmental circumstances ("nurture") that would trigger or suppress that gene. Even without a "gay gene," it would still be environmental influences that would promote or discourage such ... well ... behavior. And, presuming such could be transmitted to progeny (which illustrates my poor choice of example), the behavior and bodily characteristics would be transmitted to future generations, *without* modification to the genome itself.

Is anybody familiar with this enough to care to discuss it, particularly the ethical considerations?

I just came from Dr. Collins' lecture, had a blast to say the least. (simple toys for simple minds; easily amused; yeah, I know :rolleyes: ) Even stood in line at the end to shake his hand and ask a question. Since it seems a common comment in discussions involving genetics and behavioral implications, I asked Dr. Collins outright what he felt was the role of genetics in behavior.

His response was that as of now we don't know much. He pointed to a few studies; one concerning the tendency of some males to stray; another concerning those who thrive on risk as opposed to those who are more risk averse; and to a questionable study about the tendency to religion, what he noted was called the "G-d gene" by Time magazine. He also noted that we will probably know a great deal more in another five years or so.

I pointed out that it was a common argument by some that our genes tend to dictate our behavior, such that we cannot help what we do. He replied that was simply not so, and that free will (his choice of term) holds a great deal of influence over our behavior.

I'm still giddy, walking down the hall here about three feet off the ground, getting to meet this man. I even got his autograph... :D

I hope you won't mind Tao, but I would like to post a few notes I took from Dr. Collins' lecture, and a few websites he pointed to for future reference. That way we all have access to the same body of information, as close to the trenches as we could ask for.

First up:

genome.gov | A Catalog of Published Genome-Wide Association Studies

I think you will find this is a thorough resource noting a long list of genes that have been linked to mostly disease processes, although I did see some hereditary stuff (hair color, height) listed as well.

NIH Roadmap - Recent Research Advances

This is a lengthy list of the researches going on in the field related to human health. I linked to the "research advances" page rather than the home page.

genome.gov | NHGRI Event Webcasts

I found this searching for a transcript of Dr. Collins' lecture. Looks like a comprehensive timeline of breakthroughs in genomics.

Dr. Collins' lecture is titled: Genomics, Medicine and Society

Some notes I took away from the lecture:

DNA sequencing has made vast improvements...Dr. Collins noted that a comprehensive breakdown of a single genome costs in excess of a million dollars US until recently, and at present I think the figure was something like 70 thousand US dollars. In the foreseeable future there is equipment coming on line expected to reduced the cost to 5 thousand US dollars, with the hope that soon the cost can be reduced to 1 thousand dollars at which point it could feasibly become a diagnostic tool.

An important point he brought up was the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2007-2008:

genome.gov | Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008

Important because it curtails what limits the business sector can place on revealed genetic information. Worth taking a look at if you hadn't considered the impact of having your genetic code deciphered, and how it would apply to things like life and health insurance and employment.

Some buzz words I heard and haven't had time to research:
-microbiome (this may be up your alley, Tao, with the virus and phage stuff)
-Knockout mouse
-mammalian gene sequence
-HAPMAP project
-Genotype Tissue Expression Resource (GTEx)
-NIH Roadmap Small Molecule Initiative

Some other brief notes:
-The Human mutation rate is greater than expected
-There is on the order of *20* thousand genes (less than the 50k I heard as little as a few years ago)
-GWAS (Genome-Wide Association Studies) does *not* explain heritability, 1.3-1.4% variations are normal
-GWAS does point to novel drug targets, which lends itself to personalized medicine in the future

There's my report from my field trip, Enjoy!

Kindest Regards, Jaiket!


OK, given the terms of engagement of debate, or even rhetorical discussion, one can in theory argue anything about anything, and as long as it can be made to sound good somebody somewhere is gonna bite and take that argument to be a statement of fact. There are usually two sides to a coin, and there are frequently even more sides to an argument. People typically key in on those things that agree with their preconceptions and overlook or ignore those things that do not agree with their preconceptions.

Which is my longwinded way of saying..."why must I automatically be presumed to take the position expected by the question?"





I remember making a comment in a discussion with a social group I once belonged to (and dearly miss) very much in agreement with Dr. Collins statements. Of course, I made one significant blunder, I included the observation of race as well (in consideration of narrowing the focus to the US alone). And for my blunder I was immediately trounced on soundly by all of the other members present. Needless to say, I am more than a little skittish to broach the subject again.

If we were to remove the race factor from the equation by expanding our representative sample to other cultures, it still seems accurate that the majority of prisons are populated by the male gender.



Perhaps, but why are males the predominant gender incarcerated? Is it because males traditionally are the ones that strive for power are challenge authority? Is it because females are more concerned (or occupied) with child rearing and family issues? Is it because the female gender is still subconsciously viewed as a sexual prize by males (especially those in authority)? Do those in positions of authority tend to treat the female gender with more leniency or mercy? Are males naturally inclined to cross the boundaries of what is socially acceptable? What role does socio-economic status play? Are females more "wise and intelligent" than to challenge the social boundaries?

I think it is safe and fair to state that females are capable of committing essentially the same "crimes" that males do, it just seems statistically that they do not cross that boundary with the same frequency, or cross the boundary with the same intensity, as males tend to. But that's just my unscientific observation... ;)

I don't know. I think that is what Dr. Collins was getting at: "we don't understand the connection in terms of the biological pathways." All we can state with any certainty is that the male gender does in fact comprise the majority of those incarcerated.

In short, our genes are not the overriding factor when it comes to behavior.

Who are you going to believe? Talk on the street is cheap. I got the word straight from the director of the Human Genome Mapping Project. He says this kind of thinking is not correct, people direct their own actions by free-will. We CHOOSE how to behave, regardless of any predisposition.

'Nuf said on my part.
 
I think the issue of free will is a much broader and deeper debate than can be handled within the scope of this thread. Unless the argument is that regardless of being moral or immoral, normal or pathological being gay is still a choice?

Do I misunderstand or is that the way the argument is being framed?
 
Anyway do people think that homosexuality can be psychiatrically cured?
Disease concepts are pretty much culture bound. But whatever the culturally normative view might be, the individual orientation is what it is and attempts to talk people out of their orientation are pretty silly.

Homophobia is also silly. Research on sexual orientation among women suggests that women are all lesbian or bisexual (and hetero). They differ only in degree. See http://www.psych.utah.edu/people/faculty/diamond/Publications/New View of Lesbian Subtypes.pdf

How does one "cure" an entire gender?
 
I can't help but notice Postmaster's avatar picturing a number of good-looking, well-dressed young men enjoying each other's company.

Could it be...?
 
homosexuality is not a disease.

Neither is left-handedness.

Perhaps after we lick homosexuality we could hold a telethon to wipe out left-handedness.

People could after all, simply choose to use their right hand.
 
I can't help but notice Postmaster's avatar picturing a number of good-looking, well-dressed young men enjoying each other's company.

Could it be...?


errrrrrrrrm no. I have a girlfriend sorry to disappoint anyone.
 
Some interesting posts by juantoo

Like Juantoo said even if you do have a genetic predisposition for something doesn't necessarily make it right, genes are only part of our trueself. And in the case for homosexuality there isn't a predisposition for it.

And I read a leaflet on Aids here in Cyprus, that homosexuals, prostitutes and drug users are a high risk group for STD's.
 

Like Juantoo said even if you do have a genetic predisposition for something doesn't necessarily make it right

Just because some people have a predisposition for dogmatic faiths or other systems of belief that allow them to believe they are able to label other people's sexuality "right" or "wrong", doesn't make that particular behavior right, either. So maybe you should struggle against your predisposition. ;)

Postmaster said:
Anyway I'm not going to lie I'am a homophobic, its part of my cultural programming I can't help it. I'm still pretty close with my uncle though(an actor no surprise there hehe). I’m not in anyway hostile towards Homosexuals but I totally think the religious view towards homosexuality is valid and I back them. Also looking into it on a biological view I can't see any reason why anyone should be gay from an evolutionary perspective, it’s kind of head itching how nature can produce someone that fancies their own sex type as they can't pass on the genes for this orientation. This leads one to believe its psychological or maybe stupidity and perversion and the only real reason for homosexuality is cultural. Ok I guess people can be sexually adventurous, try both sexes and consider themselves bisexual this allows them to reproduce aswell if they want, again to me from a religious point of view wrong and considering the current situation with sexually transmitted diseases this is one of the reasons why we have this world wide situation.
 
Namaste all,

homosexuality is not a disease.

Right.

So if homosexuality is not a disease, then there is no "gay" gene.

Far and away most of the cataloged genes are implicated in disease processes...not behaviors.

I invite anybody to peruse the genome library and present here for all of us to see which gene *precisely* is implicated as that gene if they feel I am in error.

http://www.genome.gov/gwastudies/

I think you will find this is a thorough resource noting a long list of genes that have been linked to mostly disease processes, although I did see some hereditary stuff (hair color, height) listed as well.
 
Neither is left-handedness.

Perhaps after we lick homosexuality we could hold a telethon to wipe out left-handedness.

People could after all, simply choose to use their right hand.

Handedness is not behavioral, it is structural wiring. Left brain - right brain stuff.

On the other hand, if you are male gendered, why are you not in prison? The male gender demonstrates an overwhelming tendency to end up in prison, as the prisons are overflowing predominantly with male gendered persons. Maybe we should have a telethon to cure male-genderedness so we won't have to build any more prisons?
 
Looks like a choice to me, too; but not necessarily a conscious one. There is something in nature called 'imprinting' where the brain at certain times takes experiences, images, and faces to burn them into itself as permanent reference material or as mental anchors. Newly hatched birds are the best example of this. Trying to think of some human examples: an infant, a 5-7 year old boy's crushes, teenage crushes, and traumatic experiences. These all demonstrate that imprinting is a necessary part of our psychology.

Exactly.

This implies far more than many people are willing to admit to, particularly those who desire to shift the responsibility of their behaviors onto anything but their own free will choices, conscious or not (habit).
 
Disease concepts are pretty much culture bound. But whatever the culturally normative view might be, the individual orientation is what it is and attempts to talk people out of their orientation are pretty silly.

Homophobia is also silly. Research on sexual orientation among women suggests that women are all lesbian or bisexual (and hetero). They differ only in degree. See http://www.psych.utah.edu/people/faculty/diamond/Publications/New%20View%20of%20Lesbian%20Subtypes.pdf

How does one "cure" an entire gender?
I would suspect that this would be linked to inherent "female receptivity." (One could make the argument, or not, that this would be a naturally selected survival trait. Females who didn't have this receptivity factor would be much more prone to reproductive damage, or perhaps even death, (making them unable to pass this "unreceptivity factor" along to offspring,) than the ones who did have the receptivity factor--if you get my drift. ;)

Another aspect of this hypothetical "survivalist" receptivity factor would probably include being more receptive to unfamiliar encounters, which would serve to get a better mixing of the gene pool--which would cut down on inbreeding and the survival problems connected to that. However, one side effect of this hypothetical "receptivity factor" and being more open to the unfamiliar could be an increase in receptivity towards female advances, and not just male advances.

If you tried to "cure" females of this receptivity factor in (order to decrease the number of gay females,) I would suspect that an undesirable side effect would be a large increase in the number of frustrated males, (with the corresponding decrease in the receptivity of females towards males,) and the possibility of an increase in violent behavior that often accompanies frustration. :eek:
 
Exactly.

This implies far more than many people are willing to admit to, particularly those who desire to shift the responsibility of their behaviors onto anything but their own free will choices, conscious or not (habit).


So what was it like when you chose to be heterosexual, was there a long deliberation or was it pretty much on the spot.
 
Well I remember having my first Crush on a girl in Nursery school (Kindergarten) I must have been 3 or 4 years old. Still clearly remember going into in the toilets and crying everytime she rejected my company.

Point is whatever the source of my heterosexuality doesn't matter to me maybe I picked up these behaviors from my parents early on, it really doesn't matter.

I knew opening a post like this would go against the grain of what many people think, because chance's are many either has a gay family member, gay friend of is gay themselves. I didn't open the post to create tension but to altruistically pass what I think about the subject to maybe cause some positive influence.
 
I'm going to stay out of this argument or else I'm going to start flaming somebody.











Pun intended.
 
I didn't open the post to create tension but to altruistically pass what I think about the subject to maybe cause some positive influence.

I don't think a person can be cured of anything they don't feel needs to be cured. The short answer to the OP question is "no." There is nothing to cure if that is what that person has deemed acceptable and preferential in their lives.

Since homosexuality is not a disease process, there is nothing to cure anyway.

But anybody can have a change of heart, develop a new way of looking at things, or just plain old get tired and want to change something in their life. But note, it must be that individual's desire to do something like this, it cannot be forced upon them from outside. They must want it for themselves.

Humans are prone to a laundry list of behaviors, a lot of which are detrimental in one form or other either to themselves or to others in their vicinity or kinship. Homosexuality is only one behavior on the entire list, and so is heterosexuality. Both of which can create hardships and problems that transcend planting a tallywhacker in a convenient receptical.

It is unfortunate that this one topic seems to draw more than its share of attention, when it is only one of a long list of behaviors we all have to address from day to day. Sexuality, temper, tendency to gluttony, gambling, excess, risk and reward...these and more are all things religion and philosophy try to address in order to grant us guidelines so we can maintain some form of civil order because we are social animals and choose to live in mass congregations. The cultural dictates form the framework of what we collectively deem good and bad. And there are always those who get a thrill out of challenging those norms, mores and ethical standards...they tend to be male and they tend to end up dead or in prison when they get caught breaking the more strident cultural norms.

I can think of cultural exceptions to so many moral dictates: homosexuality is becoming more normative now, but there are other cultures where homosexuality has been widely accepted and normative. Only a hundred years ago in America a woman frequently married and had her first child before the age of 15, today her husband would be a paedophile. There are cultures for whom murdering outsiders was not only normative, it was openly encouraged (Mongol hoards, Viklings) or done ritualistically (throughout Pagan Europe). In some cultures being drunk or under the influence of "drugs" is criminal or at least highly regulated, in other cultures such behavior is merely being sociable. In some cultures it is neighborly to offer your wife to a houseguest, in others that is called adultery.

The list goes on.

My point all along as ever is in getting people to own up to their choices. We bring the results of our choices down on ourselves...we are responsible. We are not born with behaviors, we learn them and we practice them and they become habituated...which is fine if it is culturally normative and acceptable, if not it is culturally considered deviant or criminal.
 
Back
Top