14 Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is Not God

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by soleil10, May 22, 2009.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    There's no point, RJM, my old chum Wil makes 'doubting Thomas' look like a dyed-in-the-wool believer!

    The consensus of scholars across the board — inevitably with the exceptions in the US — is that He existed.

    We have the authentic Pauline letters, for a start, written within a couple of decades of his death. Someone who knew Peter, James and John. Someone who had to defend himself, and his claims, against the community. Luke is interesting because for so long people claimed he was wrong, and now archaeology is proving him right.

    Whilst there is scant evidence outside of the Christian community, that should come as no surprise. We have next-to-nothing on the Gnostics other than refutations by Irenaeus; we have nothing on the Mithraists. We have precious little for Julius Caesar, considering his place in history ... in Paul we have a first-hand account written within the lifetime of those who knew Him.

    Today, whatever their faith, if any, nearly all modern scholars consider the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion to be historically certain. He states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical 'facts' they are obvious starting points for an attempt to clarify the what and why of Jesus' mission." John P. Meier views the crucifixion of Jesus as historical fact and states that based on the criterion of embarrassment Christians would not have invented the painful death of their leader. The criterion of embarrassment is also used to argue in favour of the historicity of the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist as it is a story which the early Christian Church would have never wanted to invent. Based on this criterion, given that John baptised for the remission of sins, and Jesus was viewed as without sin, the invention of this story would have served no purpose, and would have been an embarrassment given that it positioned John above Jesus.

    Bart D Ehrman, who went from evangelical born-again to atheist, surveyed the arguments of the "mythicists" against the existence of Jesus since the idea was first mooted at the end of the 18th century. He then published his book "Did Jesus Exist?" which stated that He did. wiki here.

    The author states that the authentic letters of the apostle Paul in the New Testament were likely written within a few years of Jesus' death and that Paul likely personally knew James, the brother of Jesus (as well as Peter and John).

    Erhman is scathing in his criticism of the "writers, bloggers and Internet junkies who call themselves 'mythicists'", he discusses leading contemporary mythicists by name and dismisses their arguments as "amateurish", "wrong-headed", and "outlandish".
     
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  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Lol, I didn't say you Serena preacher...I asked a question... I thought somewhere along the line you had stated that...no offense intended.
    Angry? You find anger in my posts? No questions is what you find. And yeah, a few snippets outside the bible of quasi contempory authorship (within decades) of quite litterally one of the most well known, most revered men on earth...

    I find it interesting... Folks get angry.when I contemplate.. "Perhaps Jesus never existed as an historical person"
     
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  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Yes, I recall the conversation with he and Bishop Spaulding well.... Well not really well, as I was a little starry eyed of sorts...I just got out of the way.
     
  4. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Well I'm not one of them ;)
     
  5. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Phew! Thanks :)
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    :eek: Do they not know you? :rolleyes: I wouldn't expect anything other :D
     
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  7. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    He was evident in society for three-and-a-half years, in Judea which was an small and insignificant newly annexed province of Rome, For a short while he was in the local spotlight, then was executed in disgrace and abject failure, with no-one but his mother and one of his followers brave enough to stand with her at the foot of the cross Nothing for anyone to get too excited about at the time ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Yup,.we've read the bible accounts.
     
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  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Then what's the problem?
     
  10. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Not on Topic: Is anyone else impressed that this particular Thread has gone on this long? It seemed at first to be just another "you'll never guess what I know that you don't about your book" thread and has progressed for over 300 posts..
     
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  11. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's one of those things that will be disputed and debated till the end of time. When people come here they will likely have an opinion they want to share. Don't know how many read through the whole thing before posting though....
     
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  12. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I sometimes scan the forums for recent posts, and follow those, if they interest me. I did scan through the old posts on this thread, to get an idea of what was going on. Then came Composer the troll, and things hotted up.

    Everyone is different, personally I get exhausted by minute dissection of the precise words of scripture. Eventually, to me, quarelling about Jesus' divinity negates the whole core meaning of the New Testament; if Jesus was not The Christ, the New Testament is meaningless, imo?

    Also, to me, debating whether Jesus was a practising Jew also misses the point that Christ, the Messiah, came to bring a new understanding to the 'jot and tittle of the law' of Moses -- to show the true meaning of the law, instead of ritual attendance to the letter of the law, without any heart. He came to shake it all up.

    But the posters who were discussing those issues years ago, are no longer around to talk to.

    My interest is around the discussion of the historical existence of Jesus the man, following will's observation that no-one had seriously addressed the question posted by Composer the nasty troll?

    So ... thanks for the in-depth debate ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I suppose.that is why I am interested in contemplation...

    Whether Jesus existed, or was divine, doesn't detract from the bible and new testament being my primary source for inspiration.

    Nor from my thinking Jesus saves and even saved me....not the conventional born again thinking of course...but I do feel my thinking and understanding and way of being was born again due to the words written and the contemplation they inspire.
     
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  14. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I agree, in the sense of even if it never happened, it's still a powerful force. It's dangerous to lean too heavily on the truth of any particular individual passage, in case that passage is PROVEN false -- then the whole thing comes down..

    So people end-up trying to explain that God put false fossils in the ground to test the faith of believers, etc.

    But to me Jesus needs to be The Christ for it to make full impact.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    See and I think you need to be the Christ for it to have the full impact (on you) ...

    "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 2:5)
     
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  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
     
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  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Yes – "He that believeth on me" (John 6:35).

    And more explicitly:
    "I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing." John 15:5.

    Belief comes first.
     
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  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I believe in Mcgiver too... Whenever in s tough situation with a paper clip and toenail clippers, WWMD
     
  19. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    But belief requires some confirmation? God must respond? I'm not going to keep petitioning unless I get a response?

    After I have KNOWN the touch of God, after I have found/been found by God upon my knees in utmost extremity, when I get back on my feet, back in the world, how long will it take for me to start doubting the reality of that spiritual experience?

    Was the door really opened? Was my prayer really answered? Maybe it was just coincidence, maybe it was just my subconscious, etc?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  20. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    The manual says push the button and the screen lights up ...

    It would be a fool to carry on otherwise?
     

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