Obama and the Middle East

Avi

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This topic has been in the news the last couple of days with Obamas recent speech about the Middle East.

Although I am Jewish and have many ideas about the Middle East and Israel, I would like to propose a rational discussion about the current situation with respect to the following issues which Obama discussed:

1) A two state solution - the State of Palestine
2) The Israeli occupied territories
3) Israel's security
4) No mention of terrorism
5) Refering to Hamas and not Fatah
6) Reference to Holocaust denyers

Any other key points that I missed ?

I have mentioned on this forum many times that I would like to see Obama be given a fair chance to succeed. Will this speech and this policy help Obama or is it going to hurt him ?
 
Some very interesting developments today in Lebanon:

A pro-Western coalition won the recent parliamentary elections in Lebanon, which analysts say could enhance U.S. peace efforts in the region and deal a serious blow to Iranian-backed Hezbollah. The American-backed "March 14th" coalition won 71 of the 128 seats in parliament. Its major rival, the Syrian and Iranian-backed alliance led by Hezbollah won 57 seats.

Despite pre-election forecasts that the Hezbollah-led opposition might gain seats, voters in Lebanon gave the Western-backed coalition a significant majority in parliament.

VOA News - Lebanon Election Could Boost Middle East Peace Efforts

I am anxious to see how the Iranian elections turn out..tomorrow is the day.

"Iranians go to the polls Friday to vote in a fiercely contested presidential election, following a frenzied campaign over several weeks. The poll has emerged as a close race between conservative incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the reformist candidate, former Prime Minister Mir Hossein Mousavi. The campaign reached a crescendo in the past few days, with dueling mass public rallies by supporters of President Ahmadinejad and Mr. Mousavi, that drew tens of thousands of people into the streets of Tehran"

BTW, Mousavi is NOT a Holocaust denier.

I firmly support the establishment of a Palestinian state and I hope that Obama will stand behind his promise to work towards that end. I understand that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is under great pressure from the Israeli right wing faction to reject a two-state solution and to continue expanding settlements into what is rightly Palestinian land. I wish that Obama would back up his words by cutting off all financial support to Israel.

Meanwhile, Egypt's intelligence chief Omar Suleiman met with Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal Tuesday in Cairo for talks on forging a power-sharing deal between Hamas and its political rival Fatah. We can only hope that Egypt will be successful.
 
Some very interesting developments today in Lebanon:

A pro-Western coalition won the recent parliamentary elections in Lebanon, which analysts say could enhance U.S. peace efforts in the region and deal a serious blow to Iranian-backed Hezbollah. The American-backed "March 14th" coalition won 71 of the 128 seats in parliament. Its major rival, the Syrian and Iranian-backed alliance led by Hezbollah won 57 seats.
You didn't say if you think this is a good thing. But I guess you do think so ? You are way ahead of me on knowledge of Middle East politics, but I will try to learn about it quickly :)



I am anxious to see how the Iranian elections turn out..tomorrow is the day.

"Iranians go to the polls Friday to vote in a fiercely contested presidential election, following a frenzied campaign over several weeks. The poll has emerged as a close race between conservative incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the reformist candidate, former Prime Minister Mir Hossein Mousavi. The campaign reached a crescendo in the past few days, with dueling mass public rallies by supporters of President Ahmadinejad and Mr. Mousavi, that drew tens of thousands of people into the streets of Tehran"

BTW, Mousavi is NOT a Holocaust denier.

I agree with you, this is a critical election. Do you have any thoughts about these candidates ?

I firmly support the establishment of a Palestinian state and I hope that Obama will stand behind his promise to work towards that end. I understand that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is under great pressure from the Israeli right wing faction to reject a two-state solution and to continue expanding settlements into what is rightly Palestinian land.
This will be an interesting issue to watch. It seems like under Obama this is likely to be a done deal. Most Jews are pretty concerned about what this outcome will mean to Israel in the long run. It is an interesting topic to discuss further.

I wish that Obama would back up his words by cutting off all financial support to Israel.

It seems like that would be equivalent to the destruction of Israel, don't you think so ? Also, an interesting topic to discuss in more detail.


Meanwhile, Egypt's intelligence chief Omar Suleiman met with Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal Tuesday in Cairo for talks on forging a power-sharing deal between Hamas and its political rival Fatah. We can only hope that Egypt will be successful.
What are your thoughts about the dynamics between Hamas and Fatah and their leadership role for the Palestinians ?
 
Hi Avi...I am going to busy most of the day tomorrow but I thought I would leave a link to an article that represents my thoughts regarding the Iranian election as well as I could express them if I had written it myself. ;) I really am excited that the moderate voice represented by Hossein Mousavi is speaking loud and clear. I support moderation in all religions. :D Of course, there is also much debate about what kind of power the Iranian President really has. Officially the highest elected office in the Islamic Republic of Iran's bureaucracy, the president remains subordinate to the Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei, who serves as the final arbiter on foreign policy, media, nuclear-related decisions, and military and national security.

Iran Goes to the Polls: What Will Its Historic Election Mean for the World? | World | AlterNet

Q&A: How powerful is the Iranian president? | Reuters

Later this weekend I will answer your other questions so until then,
Blessings and Shalom.
 
1) A two state solution - the State of Palestine

Ariel Sharon was totally against a separate Palestinian state - then when he realised the different in birth rates and that the Palestinian population within Israel would outnumber Israeli later this century, there was no option but for a separate state. The logic is still a form of partitioning, though.

If Netanyahu claims objection it's just playing hardball on the diplomatic process - ie, claiming it as a compromise, even though Israel has no choice in the matter, really.
 
The two State Solution - I have been looking for information about what the current Israeli position is on the two state solution and from what I have found they are not necessarily in step with Obama's ideas at this time.

But I found this interesting article that describes some of the issues related to withdrawl from the occupied territories.

It seems to me that this vision of withdrawl will start to be integrated with what will become the two state solution. Do you agree or disagree ?


CONCLUSION: AFTER UNILATERALISM
After decades of bitter argument over the future of the West Bank and Gaza, Israelis have finally reached a consensus over the need to withdraw from most of the territories. Instead of ‘Land for Peace’ or ‘Greater Israel’, they simply want separation from the Palestinians. All that really remains for them to decide is how and when this separation will be accomplished. The domestic debate over the territories has become just a debate over tactics and timing, not outcomes. Most Israelis now want the same outcome—a Jewish state as large as possible with as few Palestinians as possible—and most accept that a withdrawal from much of the West Bank is the only way to achieve this outcome. Israel’s ability to achieve this outcome, however, depends upon the consent of the Palestinians. The belief that Israel does not need the agreement of Palestinians to determine its final borders has been shattered by the events of the summer of 2006. Hezbollah’s firing of Katyusha rockets into northern Israel from southern Lebanon, and the Palestinians’ firing of Qassam rockets into southern Israel from Gaza following Israel’s withdrawal have both starkly illustrated the dangers of unilateral Israeli withdrawals (from Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005). The escalation of Israeli-Palestinian violence in Gaza after the disengagement appears to have vindicated the argument made by opponents of Sharon’s disengagement plan that a unilateral withdrawal sends a signal of weakness to Israel’s enemies and emboldens them to attack. Consequently, Israeli public support for PM Olmert’s “realignment plan” has plummeted and forced him to shelve the plan. Unilateral separation as a solution to the issue of the territories has lost its appeal. As an Israeli commentator bluntly put it during the second Lebanon war, “The simplistic belief in a simplistic withdrawal has gone bankrupt.” Unilateralism, therefore, is no longer an option for Israel, but separation still is. Having given up on the unilateral method of separation, Israelis now have little choice but to seek a negotiated and consensual separation with the Palestinians. This will certainly not be easy to accomplish. For one thing, the Palestinians are unlikely to accept the less-than-complete withdrawal from the West Bank that most Israelis want. The status of Jerusalem (whose municipal borders have been greatly expanded since 1967) and the Jordan Valley also remain contentious territorial issues. For another, the Palestinians do not agree among themselves on their goals with regard to their conflict with Israel. More than ever before, the Palestinians are debating whether they should recognize Israel’s existence and accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza as Fatah proposes, or whether should they aspire to establish an Islamic state over all of historic Palestine, as Hamas seeks. The Palestinians are engaged in their own bitter domestic debate, involving competing definitions of Palestinian national identity (secular versus Islamic) and competing visions of a future Palestinian state. Thus, although Israelis have finally reached agreement on the future of the West Bank and Gaza, they must now wait for the Palestinians to resolve their own internal debate before this future can arrive.


Ref: Israel Studies, vol. 13, no. 2, 2009.
 
;) I really am excited that the moderate voice represented by Hossein Mousavi is speaking loud and clear. I support moderation in all religions. :D Of course, there is also much debate about what kind of power the Iranian President really has.

Janz, it looks like Ahmadinejad won, too bad, it sounded like a nice opportunity to bring some moderation to Iran. On the other hand it looks like the people there were not ready for that type of change yet.

You seem very interested in Iran, are you originally from there ? (Of course you don't have to answer that, I think anonymity is very important on an internet forum).
 
^ Just a quick answer to your question..I am not originally from Iran; but yes, I am very interested in Iran and Persian history and culture. I often sit and wish that Persia had conquered Greece..it would be a very interesting world. I am very sad that the election turned out the way that it did and I think it was fraud..fraud..fraud. I think most of the people there are ready for a change and the Islamic leaders are NOT.
 
There have been riots in Tehran and reports of "irregularities" in the voting.

I think you are right, Janz, it is possible that the people of Iran are ready for a change but Ahmadinejad does not want to give up power.

In some cases there are international observers for elections, but I have heard if there were any observers for this election. Does anyone know if there were any observers ?

Also, I wonder if there will be retaliation against the people that voted for Ahmadinejad's opponent, Mousavi, lets hope not.
 
No, Iran does NOT have any international observers..their elections are closed and tightly controlled. I will be back later today about a few thoughts on Israel and Palestine. The topic at hand. ;)
 
about time but a long way to go if the palestinians are not happy with his initial comments; shame the state is stuck in the middle of the country rather than at the edge , or coast! [and jerusalem should be a UN city!!]

funny he considered samaria the land of his forefathers when the jews destroyed their temple?!! [correct me if l'm wrong].
 
about time but a long way to go if the palestinians are not happy with his initial comments;

It will be interesting to see how this develops. I think the Israeli's might also have some second thoughts about trusting a land for peace deal. Obama is so new that neither side is sure they can really rely on him yet.


shame the state is stuck in the middle of the country rather than at the edge , or coast! [and jerusalem should be a UN city!!]
I am amazed to hear that a European would actually want the UN to run anything :eek:. After the IRS and Motor Vehicle Bureau they are perhaps the most bureaucratic organization existing.


funny he considered samaria the land of his forefathers when the jews destroyed their temple?!! [correct me if l'm wrong].

Some interesting history. I think you are technically correct, but if you step back and look at the big picture, the time that you are talking about, 800 BCE was still a tribal period so there were essentially continual factional wars. Didn't Joseph's brothers, earlier in history, sell him off to a band of travelling Midianites ? I do not think we can draw too many conclusions about today based on that history.
 
...I think anonymity is very important on an internet forum).
Why so?
Anyone whom you would need to fear could figure out who you are anyway, even if you have a url concealer.
The internet is transparent to those who run it.
 
Why so?
Anyone whom you would need to fear could figure out who you are anyway, even if you have a url concealer.
The internet is transparent to those who run it.

Shawn, I was just expressing to Janz that she should not feel compelled to give her country of origin if she does not want to do so. I was trying to be respectful of her privacy.

The point that you bring up is an interesting one though. If you would like to discuss, perhaps start another thread on this ? I will be glad to participate. :)
 
whats everyone thinking about iran?

Its a bit like Kenya a couple of years back. Certainly with regard to electoral integrity.
But looking at the bigger picture and its effect on International relationships we are at a crucial point. For a while we did not really know what Khamenei and the Ruling Council were thinking. The unprecedented freedom in the election campaign it seems was only a ruse to flush out dissent. The result was almost certainly decided some time ago.

Ahmadinejad's visit to a meeting between Russia, China and some smaller North Asian states is no coincidence and the rhetoric of congratulation proffered to him was thick with political meaning. China and Russia are now undoubtedly pooling their combined might as a challenge to US global dominance. Iran's leadership has rejected friendly relationship to the US but the whole purpose of this convention in Russia is far more important than that. It is a statement to the US that there is now a block of political consensus that is willing and capable to stand up to US foreign policy on Iran. It is China and Russia giving Iran the green light to nuclear weapons.

It makes for a very testing presidency for Obama. China and Russia see the US as having a weak president. Within days of his election China was harassing the US west pacific fleet in international waters. Russia take a position of arrogant amusement at a President they think too pansy to be effective in a fight. I predict we will see a continued consolidation along the Russia/China axis with their sphere of influence exerted ever more forcibly against US interests. A quiet attrition to start but as they gain strength and confidence who knows?

Bush and his cronies have made a dire mess for the US. Though it goes back way before that. The China/Russia position is a factual one. They call the US hypocritical. And it is...deeply. While the US provides the veneer TV Dinner sham of democracy to most of its own it has exported little but corporate and ideological fascism abroad. Since the 1980's it has had carte blanch to do what it wanted where ever it wanted. These days are drawing to a close. What is said on state TV in Russia and China is factual. They say the US is full of double standards and cites them. It does not paint them as being wrong just of selling them to the western populations as having some moral high-ground which we most certainly do not have.

I have often likened global politics to rival mafia's in some Hollywood gangster movie. There is a new Don in the seat of the old King Don. What he does over his presidency will decide whether it remains the seat of a king.
 
^ Interesting thoughts Tao..so now the United States is being replaced as a superpower with a Russia/China/Iran cartel (what of North Korea?). Does this mean the economic takeover of the West as China owns most of the United States economic debt? How does this affect the EU?
 
l can understand about the whose the big boy, obama kinda looked stressed out in his speech about the results. didn't realise that 50% of the population are under 25; so not just middle class/intellectuals but just the young wanting change so conservatismVrevolution [again]. thank goodness for technology at the moment for information.

That russia/china are so chummy chummy.. that fits so watch the space called afghanistan as well. Saw 'dispatches' on channel 4 and the locals are getting manipulated/deceived by their own and the U.S. [so whats new?], playing on the tribal animosities etc.
 
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