'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperbole?

nativeastral

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

I am speaking as a Christian that believes the bible is the inspired word of God.... Holy only applies to the God of the bible.. Not allah. and Holy means literally "set apart" So there really is no discussion for me. Now "sacred" I agree with GlorytoGod... that is subjective.

holy does not only apply to what you think. it is a word used by many other religions and comapartively speaking is synonymous with sacred as profane is as synonymous with unholy. in an interfaith forum you do disservice cleaving to that word as exclusive.
 

Faithfulservant

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

holy does not only apply to what you think. it is a word used by many other religions and comapartively speaking is synonymous with sacred as profane is as synonymous with unholy. in an interfaith forum you do disservice cleaving to that word as exclusive.


I very clearly defined where I am coming from...I said that I am speaking as a Christian that believes the bible is the inspired word of God. That MEANS I am not speaking for anyone else.

lol even when I declare my faith before speaking... people will jump on that bandwagon. Its pretty funny imo.
 

nativeastral

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

I very clearly defined where I am coming from...I said that I am speaking as a Christian that believes the bible is the inspired word of God. That MEANS I am not speaking for anyone else.

lol even when I declare my faith before speaking... people will jump on that bandwagon. Its pretty funny imo.

forgive me if l misunderstood you FS, then its subjective; l was being objective about the word and the meaning of the word itself as it it used worldwide.
 

Faithfulservant

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

forgive me if l misunderstood you FS, then its subjective; l was being objective about the word and the meaning of the word itself as it it used worldwide.

no worries :) There are so many points of view in the interfaith community that I can only speak from mine. I try to always be careful that everyone knows that I am being sensitive to other peoples just as I would want them to be sensitive to mine.. Its also the only way I can post here and still stay true to my faith. If I were to go around declaring that everyone else is wrong.. I wouldnt get very far.. but If I tell everyone that I am a bible believing Christian they already know where I am coming from *wink* then I can state my piece and discuss from that point of view and everyone loves each other I dont have to hedge. Everyones happy!
 

wil

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

I am speaking as a Christian that believes the bible is the inspired word of God.... Holy only applies to the God of the bible.. Not allah. and Holy means literally "set apart" So there really is no discussion for me. Now "sacred" I agree with GlorytoGod... that is subjective.
Namaste FS,

for the Lord our God is holy — Psalms 99:9

Now I wonder if someone can pop in and tell us what the Hebrew/Greek words were and their meanings...

Allah is simply the Arabic word for G!d and despite the perception differences and interpretations of the prophet...the name refers to the exact same G!d as in Psalms the G!d of the bible is the G!d of the Koran, just as Christianities prophets interpretted and saw things differently than their predescessors the Jews, Muslims interpretations is different than Christians...however none of us change the nature and being of G!d despite our varied and sundry interpretations.
 

Faithfulservant

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

Namaste FS,

for the Lord our God is holy — Psalms 99:9

Now I wonder if someone can pop in and tell us what the Hebrew/Greek words were and their meanings...

Allah is simply the Arabic word for G!d and despite the perception differences and interpretations of the prophet...the name refers to the exact same G!d as in Psalms the G!d of the bible is the G!d of the Koran, just as Christianities prophets interpretted and saw things differently than their predescessors the Jews, Muslims interpretations is different than Christians...however none of us change the nature and being of G!d despite our varied and sundry interpretations.

The Arabic name for “God” is the word “Al-ilah.”
It is a generic title for whatever god was considered the highest god
Different Arab tribes used “Allah” to refer to its personal high god. “Allah” was being worshipped at the Kaa’ba in Mecca by Arabs prior to the time of Mohammed. It was formerly the name of the chief god among the numerous idols (360) in the Kaaba in Mecca before Mohammed made them into monotheists. Historians have shown that the moon god called “Hubal” was the god to whom Arabs prayed at the Kaa’ba and they used the name “Allah” when they prayed

taken from Is Allah God's name


regarding "Holy"
The Hebrew word is kadesh it means to sanctify or to set apart..
The Greek word is hagios which means the same thing
The English word is holy which means the same thing.


I respect your pov on allah, wil but I simply have to disagree and you can find a few hundred of these threads in the abrahamic forum so really no point in rehashing this here methinks since it has nothing to do with the OP.
 

juantoo3

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

Some things to consider on this subject are the concepts / traditions of ley lines (Celtic?) and feng shui (Tao). These use the idea that the earth has certain lines of energetic power according to topography and geology.
 

bananabrain

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

ok, i'll bite.

firstly, what nativeastral said about "tested, reliable psychics". yeah. there's an oxymoron i don't think i've come across before.

on the other hand:

Do physical places on this planet (like with a human body) retain a similar memory of powerfully positive or religiously significant events which happened long ago at this specific spot? (Do such events retain an aura or ghost-electromagnetic memory of some kind?)
i actually believe it's simpler than that. have you ever seen australian aboriginal paintings? in those, there is no fourth dimension. all the time is shown squashed into the same space that the "dreaming" has always and will always share. my concept of time, based on the teachings of our mystical tradition and in particular the sefer yetzirah, is that in a 5-dimensional "G!DSpace", the three dimensions of physical measurement and the fifth of "soul", or morality if you prefer, are ones we have it in our power to move along and reposition ourselves. the fourth, that of time, is outside our remit. from the Divine PoV, this restriction does not exist. all times are One; this is how determinism and free-will are able to coexist in the same space. by this logic, everything that has ever happened or will happen at a place is, in theory, accessible, if only you could move along the fourth dimension. what i believe happens with psychics and the like, probably also in the phenomenon of déjà vu, is that people stumble across folds in time in some way, thus they are able to experience "echoes" of something that has happened previously or in the future. i believe prophecy is probably a very exalted form of this, whereby by the exercise of certain techniques some form of oh, i don't know, temporal singularity is opened which the prophet is given a glimpse into. perhaps certain places are more prone to this sort of singularity, it would make sense if prophetic techniques and structures were frequently practiced there, to make some kind of impression, to, if you like, thin the fabric of the lower worlds such that it makes it easier to make a wormhole. anyway, that's just my opinion, or at any rate, it is where my understanding of the primary sources that deal with this would lead me to think. the holy land and, particularly, jerusalem, the "navel of the world", are of course probably the largest focus of this on the planet.

it is, of course, entirely possible that the "form of hysteria" explanation is correct - or, more likely, that both explanations are present in different forms. in any case, it makes it all the more important that prophetic techniques are practiced with an experienced guide and appropriate safeguards.

What if this "sacred place" is actually the wrong place?
a good point. certainly, following the logic of my argument, you would expect two things to happen. one would be that people would in any case practice prophetic techniques at the location and end up creating a singularity in its own right. the second, however, would be that the singularity would be less likely to yield valid prophetic results and you would get odd characteristics popping up. of course, it would be difficult to test because there is no currently practiced public and reliable standard for evaluating the validity and consistency of prophetic experience. you used the word "genuine" - but the trouble is, how is that to be agreed upon? a good example is the putative mt sinai in the eponymous desert peninsula. i once spent the night on top of it. did i have a religious experience? no. perhaps this is because i was not open to it. perhaps this is because it was the wrong mountain. in that particular case, it is not especially clear that it is the right mountain, certainly, concerning this, we have no tradition that i am aware of and the current designation was one by coptic christian monks. on the other hand, there are other places where this doubt does not obtain:

What logically or emotionally or spiritually makes "Jerusalem" ("Mecca") or the "Temple Mount" ("Dome of the Rock") or "the Wailing Wall" ("Kaaba") or "Mt Sinai" ("Medina") any different?
you could, arguably, say that there is a scale of something that makes it different, but as i think someone pointed out, the hebrew word for "holy" means "set apart". the same word is used for many other things, so clearly it is not only "place" that can be holy. interestingly, one of the most recondite names we have for G!D is "Ha-MaQOM", which means "the Place". on the other hand, we are principally interested in sacred *time* rather than sacred place - the only place that has ever been "set apart" officially was the site of the Temple in jerusalem. interestingly, i think someone mentioned the word "sanctify" - well, perhaps, in the sense of setting apart, but as for literally making something "sacred" in the english sense, i don't think this exists in such a way for us.

b'shalom

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Dondi

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

bb said:
i believe prophecy is probably a very exalted form of this, whereby by the exercise of certain techniques some form of oh, i don't know, temporal singularity is opened which the prophet is given a glimpse into. perhaps certain places are more prone to this sort of singularity, it would make sense if prophetic techniques and structures were frequently practiced there, to make some kind of impression, to, if you like, thin the fabric of the lower worlds such that it makes it easier to make a wormhole.


Yet you don't believe, according to your tradition which you've stated elsewhere, that prophets exists today. Why not? If from the perspective of eternity, if all times are One, why couldn't there be prophetic accessibility now?
 

bananabrain

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

Dondi said:
Yet you don't believe, according to your tradition which you've stated elsewhere, that prophets exists today. Why not? If from the perspective of eternity, if all times are One, why couldn't there be prophetic accessibility now?
it's a matter of levels. there are certain levels of this accessibility available, on one end being déjà vu which is a fold in time that we experience without our soliciting it and on the other being full access to what is known in our tradition as ruah ha-qodesh, or Divine Inspiration, literally "the Holy Spirit". now this is a *level* of accessibility, but it is on the lower rungs of prophetic capability. nonetheless, it is *theoretically* open to any man, woman or child whether jewish or not and i would argue that the great spiritual figures of whatever religion have probably attained it. however, proper biblical neviut remains currently unavailable to us due to the lack of certain facilities such as the ashes of the red heifer and the difficulty of attaining the correct level of ritual attunement or "purity" as some call it. and, of course, needless to say, the techniques required to learn any of it are extraordinarily difficult and attainable only by a select few. it is also possible, nonetheless, that there are other environmental effects damping the "G!D-signal", such as the lack of a Temple, which is, in technical terms, an amplifier for this signal.

leastways, that's the way i see it. this area is extremely recondite.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 

Faithfulservant

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

oh bb I would LOVE to sit down and have a chat with you about some of the stuff you talk about. Such a shame you live so far away.
 

Penelope

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

ok, i'll bite ...
thin the fabric of the lower worlds ... the holy land and, particularly, jerusalem, the "navel of the world", are of course probably the largest focus of this on the planet.
it is, of course, entirely possible that the "form of hysteria" explanation is correct ... standard for evaluating the validity and consistency of prophetic experience ...
the putative mt sinai in the eponymous desert peninsula. i once spent the night on top of it. did i have a religious experience? no. perhaps this is because i was not open to it. perhaps this is because it was the wrong mountain ...
interestingly, one of the most recondite names we have for G!D is "Ha-MaQOM", which means "the Place" ...
bananabrain
Hi Nanobrain

It's nice to hear you let go of your analytics, for a change, and actually expound on something.

(Kind of risky, huh?
I could pick your idea apart like you regularly pick me apart. :) )

& & &

Sacred Ground ... ?

I have not, actually, been to Gettysburg.
(Nor anyplace else in Pennsylvania.)

I have, though, visited the Little Bighorn Battlefield in Montana (twice: once as a kid, once as an adult). This is where Sitting Bull, Gull, and Crazy Horse led the defeat of General George Armstrong Custer and the 7th U.S. Cavalry, in 1876.

There has been a continuous chain of material custody of this site from 1876 till the present. So, unlike Mt Sinai, the event that historians claim happened here - did, without any doubt, happen here.

Did I feel vibes of the deep trauma which occurred here? The spectral presence of the dead?
No. Not in the least.

Now, I'm sensitive to the point of suggestiveness - about many things. But I got nothing.

This Battle is part of the 8th Grade (U.S. History) curriculum in my District. Walking about those rolling hills, I could picture the outlines of this famous Battle (picture it better than can most Americans). What I did feel was tragedy, many tragedies. Plus many ironies, and some not insignificant moral travesties. But these, all, were cultural and historical in nature - the clash of two mutually exclusive ways-of-life.

I never once felt anything, here, which approached 'the sacred.'

& & &

Jerusalem means something to "your people."
Gettysburg means something to "my people."

Everyone here - tasting this thread (excuse my bluntness) - begs the central question. Avoids the underlying conundrum:
- If Jerusalem IS sacred, does that mean that Gettysburg is, too?
- If Gettysburg is NOT sacred, does that mean that Jerusalem is not sacred, either?

Beyond semantics and Subjectivity Theory and mere opinion, aren't we talking about something FUNDAMENTAL here?

I can understand ...
That most persons reading this (& Wil's parallel thread), either
- haven't the spiritual courage to address this conundrum head on,
- don't have the analytical skill to parse the question with clarity,
- would rather deal with all the interesting side-issues, or
- simply don't care.
I get that.

But, you - yourself - beg the question, too ...
I thought better of you, Nanobrain.
(By the way, I am using this nickname for you, affectionately. Not sarcastically - if you are slow at reading between-the-lines. Well, maybe a little bit sarcastically.)

& & &

What IS the relationship of the Sacred to the Divine?
How does a person get IN TOUCH with it?
What makes it REAL, and not just an amulet against one's own existential insecurity (not just a picture prettier and more inspiring than the dreariness of one's mundane life)?

Whatever the Sacred is ...
Is it a halo of Unattainability?
Or a true Pathway to God?

 

bananabrain

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Re: 'This place is Sacred' - Genuine experience of hallowed ground? Devotional hyperb

penelope said:
It's nice to hear you let go of your analytics, for a change, and actually expound on something.
when i have it turned on, as you have already seen, i take a fairly forensic approach to assertions which appear more unstable and unsustainable than an asthmatic one-legged elephant. this is a question of aggadah or speculative theology, not halakhah. in matters of aggadah, multiple and more personal opinions are valid, although none are authoritative or binding - not even those of maimonides! however, lest we forget, there are certainly opinions which are incompatible with the fundamental tenets of judaism - whatever those can be agreed to be (can open, worms everywhere). so, this is my opinion, albeit it isn't based on nothing more than "what i'd like to be true", but is rather more of a synthesis of insights in related fields, which you are free, of course to pick apart. you will find that i am far less categorical in such matters and not nearly as tenacious in defending my point of view, because at the end of the day these are not a matter for certainty.

Now, I'm sensitive to the point of suggestiveness - about many things. But I got nothing.
maybe it is something which requires technique. the redoubtable mrs bb once visited the mayan (i think) step pyramids in mexico and to this day remembers how overpoweringly the feeling of mass slaughter still haunted them - and that was before she saw "apocalypto"!

Everyone here - tasting this thread (excuse my bluntness) - begs the central question. Avoids the underlying conundrum:
- If Jerusalem IS sacred, does that mean that Gettysburg is, too?
- If Gettysburg is NOT sacred, does that mean that Jerusalem is not sacred, either?
i don't believe that is the central question, which is why i haven't picked that up. i find it far more interesting to consider whether the word "sacred" means the same to you as it does to me. it is perfectly OK for gettysburg to be "sacred" to you; it neither "scratches my back nor steals my wallet", as the phrase goes. the way you phrase the putative "conundrum" is, to my way of thinking, redundant. why can't they both be "sacred"? do we have a shared operational definition of what that is? might i hypothesise:

for you, "sacred" in this context appears to mean:

a lot of people died at this spot for a principle which is important to me and mine. we must respect that they did so and treat the place with reverence.

or maybe you are referring to the address rather than the battle, in which case you might mean:

this is where a statement of a principle which is important to me and mine was articulated in a meaningful fashion. we must respect that this occurred and treat the place with reverence.

as you see, it isn't terribly clear. and neither of these are the reason that jerusalem is sacred to me. what do *i* mean by "sacred"? what, come to it, do i mean by "jerusalem"?

Beyond semantics and Subjectivity Theory and mere opinion, aren't we talking about something FUNDAMENTAL here?
i don't know about subjectivity theory, but this is certainly about how we might differ in approaching the concept of "sacredness". and for me, actually, that isn't "fundamental". for me, the fundamental question is then: "and if so, how should i live?" is that still, to you, "begging the question"? because, as you already should know, i don't mince words when it comes to thorny issues.

What IS the relationship of the Sacred to the Divine?
for me, this concerns the setting up of boundaries, whether physical, temporal or spiritual. if something is "sacred" (QaDOSh), it is in some way separate from "secular" (HOL).

How does a person get IN TOUCH with it?
by carrying out in the higher and lower worlds the halakhic and aggadically prescribed acts of inner (QaWwaNaH) mindfulness / intention and outer observance (MiSWaH Mitzvah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). well, that's how i do it anyway.

What makes it REAL, and not just an amulet against one's own existential insecurity (not just a picture prettier and more inspiring than the dreariness of one's mundane life)?
the fact that it *is* real to me and the similarly-minded believers, as it has been for thousands of years as the engine of our culture - but if you're looking for objective, peer-reviewed proof, then obviously there is no such thing available, or no doubt it would be available on the open market, as it were.

Whatever the Sacred is ... Is it a halo of Unattainability?
sometimes. it depends on when, where, who, what, why and how. only the high priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies - and then, only on the day of atonement (yom kippur) and then, only under strictly controlled conditions and a rope around the leg in case he dropped dead while he was in there and had to be retrieved. strange but true.

Or a true Pathway to God?
arguably so, for a given value of "true", "pathway", "to" and "G!D".

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
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