Why stay a Christian?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by wil, Sep 4, 2009.

  1. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    I was looking for a certain thread... And I have no idea what it was called.... Although just found this one, and it's title suits what I wanted to share from another forum:
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    Craig: How many people do you know that live a hard line christian lifestyle .I went to a C of E school ,i got married in a rural village church ,all three of my kids are baptised .I'd like to have a vicar say a few words over my grave when i'm dead .

    I just view this as part of the culture of my country , this is the norm amongst the people that live around me and i go along with it because its traditional to me and my family .

    I do not go to church very often ,i do not have a bible in the house and i believe a lot of what is written in the bible as very questionable .
    i am not interested in forcing anyone to believe in this particular religion but i personally don't know anything else .

    my main reason for becoming interested in the BNP is i am dismayed at the way our country and culture is rapidly changing , i agree with alot of what i read on this web site but i'm happy to consider views of people like yourself even if we cannot agree on something .

    XVII: Craig….

    You do not have a bible, you question the bible's face value and "spiritual worth" You do not go to church often… So, you mean you don't go to church unless a funeral or wedding right? lol… But…. You want a priest to say a few words(which will come from said bible) when you die? May I ask why? lol… Seems odd…

    "I am not interested in forcing anyone to believe in this particular religion" – You.

    You said however before hand…

    "All three of my kids are baptised" – You.

    Was it -their- choice to be baptised?

    "But I personally don't know anything else"

    Seek and you shall find. ;) lol.

    XVII
    When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.

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    I am still waiting for his response.... As in reference to this thread "Why stay a christian?"

    Can't answer for him... But, it seems a set tradition in which out of being lazy..... Or not really caring/being bothered no one changes it.... Like how this guy wants a priest to say some words... What does this do? It seems a cycle.... Like his children for example.... Will they go on to mirror the same actions? Got baptised... I went to a christian school.... *shrug* I can't be arsed to change but I don't really buy into it all.....

    Then why keep the title of christian?

    Just thought I'd add this as a FP experience of "why stay a christian" To this guy it seems just "culture" "tradition" "laziness" This accurate?
     
  2. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    Aye....laziness is spot on.
    Sadly.
    Apathy is another word that springs to mind.

    When people are troubled/bothered about things, what do the physicians prescribe to them to alleviate these issues?
    Typically prozac and similar drugs.... right.
    These drugs are all based on the fluoride molecule, which they put in water and toothpaste and such.
    Some places have a high fluoride count in the water naturally.

    So what does this have to do with anything?

    Certainly I am not looking for a chemical culprit to hang the blame on for all the thick-heads in the world, as some are just naturally thick and lazy, but it seems that this general spirit of apathy regarding fundamentally important things has been increasing (and no I don't have studies to cite or link, just my experience in life and the gathered impressions of others who have noticed a similar trend).
    So perhaps it is something in the water.
    Just a thought to consider.

    And regarding your question of why continue to call ones self by a label that has no meaning....people are creatures of habit and like to do meaningless imitations of others.....well, some do, thankfully not all.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I surely can't answer for those that don't know why they call themselves a Christian. I can make a generalization that it is comfortable somehow, and that they've got that what if their right thought in their head. They also may expect at one day to expect to take advantage of not dissing the faith...maybe gettin a prayer chit or get out of hell for free card.

    Of course I also have met many that go thru all the motions, church every Sunday, yet they live lives like they believe none of it.
     
  4. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Wil,

    You said,

    "Of course I also have met many that go thru all the motions, church every Sunday, yet they live lives like they believe none of it."

    --> I think they are just taking the easy way out. You are right, they are just trying to cover themselves. It takes a lot of courage for a person to challenge one's religion and lifestyle and to do something about it. Sadly, many people do not have such courage.
     
  5. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Something in that there water! I maybe getting mixed up here, just woke up an all... Are you saying Fluorine is in water? Cause... Like, Fluorine is.... Like.... Bad, very bad lol. I think my rule of thumb is anything with fluo in it is bad lol. Sodium fluoride. Hydrofluoric acid.... Hydrogen Fluoride, ay de ya de ya...

    People like to do meaningless things? But, like Craig here... If they stop and look at their words... Which... They must? They can see the oxymoron's in their "faith" Shouldn't people stop and ponder and then "fix" their meaningless habit?




    Baffling... If they don't believe, there is nothing to fear from a mythical being holding a grudge and punishing them. Only fooling their poor selves.
     
  6. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    pascals wager [just in case], hedging their bets in an uncertain 'beyond' certain mortality, and a wishful desire
    to still 'be' and be 'loved'.
     
  7. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Would it count?

    Say you were the supreme leader teh worlds!!! And you had some kind of crazy salvation skill you showered upon your devout followers.... If I thought every thing you said was a bunch of bollox.... I didn't follow your rules, your ways, your whatever... I said I was a nativeastralian.... But.. That was as far as it went... And you KNEW this. Would you give me salvation?
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    It isn't I think that they don't believe...well yes it is, they don't swallow it whole. But they believe in a supreme being and some of it, but not enough of it to actually give it a go. Many have seen the hypocrisy in others and then just don't want to participate in that, some go just for the social...friends, food afterwords, some church teachings for the kids, etc.

    I spent years finding a church that resonated with me. And now that I have I miss it when I can't go, I miss listening to the talk and contemplating the concepts presented. I used to chuckle at the Catholics that had to go...that were told they were going to hell if they didn't attend mass every week. And now I don't believe in a physical hell, I believe we create our own heaven and hell, and when I don't go every week, darned if I don't wallow in my own self created hell about it. It is these realizations that make me appreciate other beliefs and dogma and pomp and circumstance (like the Catholic concept in this discussion) as I begin to understand they have a basis in thought that I can't see initially.
     
  9. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Thanks for reply,

    Yeah I guess we could make our own heavens and hells, being indviduals... To be in heaven or to be in hell it would need to be customisable to the indvidual.

    You've mentioned the church before :) Told me some stories (I can't fully recall sorry) How you travelled some insane distances just to go. All in all, I guess that is a good thing if it really is a free choice to go, and "self hell" is just you missing the experience and being with like minded people and such... Not some kind of hell that has been programmed into your head that you think you like deserve punishment for not going... You know lol...

    So you no longer chuckle at the catholics? (would you also put on par, really enjoying what you're doing and upset cause you miss it... With... I only go because I don't want to burn for all eternity.... So I will sit here listening to padre Hitler.)

    I feel deep pity and sorrow for anyone who is bullied and manipulated into seriously believing in some crazy place called hell where they will be eternally punished if they don't fit in and allow someone to put them in their place... I can't chuckle at them ;/ I weep for them.
     
  10. friendofbill

    friendofbill Established Member

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    I have a real problemwith the label "Christian," simply becaue in this day and age it can and does mean just about anythiing anyone wants it to mean. It is applied to Catholic and Mormon alike, to Presbyterian and JW alike, I read of "Christian witches" and prosperity gospels and hyperfundamentalist "end-of-the-worlders" and begin to see that "Christianirty" as such has little or nothing to do with its Founder and Originator.

    IMO churches are "religion clubs." As such they have value, but are not what they claim to be, assemblies of the faithful. I belong to one myeelf, and participate actively, but do not for a moment think that doing so makes me an authentic disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. When I want authentic input regarding the day to day operation of God in my life, I consult with my AA group, for it was there I learned Who God is and how He works in human lives. The churches could not help me, because they brought the message wrapped in a complex religious agenda that put me off.

    So I don't claim t be a "Christian." I claim rather to be a student, follower and devotee of Jesus of Nazareth, a work in progress but at least heading in the right direction. As for the label, I couldn't care less.

    Ubuntu
    Art
     
  11. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    AA is one of those religious clubs then? :)

    Couple questions if I may, Why do you consult AA about god in your life? Can you not consult god?

    You don't claim to be a christian cause you don't go to a church? Or...?

    A christian is a follower/student of the christ right? So... Tomatoes tamatoes.. Right?

    Jesus, is he an important figure in your life?
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namste Art,

    I believe that is what all Christians believe, that they are following Christ.

    Are you saying you cannot put Catholics, Mormons, Presbyterians and JWs in the Christian camp?

    Now one of my favorite responses...was by Maya Angelou, something to the effect of when someone told her that they were Christian, "Congratulations, I've spent decades trying to be one."

    Following in the footsteps is not so easy.

    It is said many Christians practice the teachings of Moses and study the history of Jesus, when it should be the other way around.
     
  13. friendofbill

    friendofbill Established Member

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    I consult AA, and a number of great writers such as Lewis and Chesterton, and my rector, and friends, and people on this board and others, because I am not one who believes that followers of Jesus follow in isolation. My problem is not with association or fellowship or consulting others: my problem is, simply and only, with labels. We -- and religious folks are some of the worst in this respect -- sort people and ideas by labels, and then accept or deny what they say based on labels. God speaks to us through others, and He happens to speak to me through AA, if that is okay with you. And if it isn't, He does so anyway.

    Regarding your final question,
    all I can say is, I thought I answered that:
    "Because I don't go to a church"? But I do. And participate actively. You just never know if what you assume about someone is really the case or not. I can be a churchman, a member of the "religion club," and still reject LABELS. The "club" membershuip does not make me anything but a club member. Being a follower of Jesus is a one on one deal. Being a "Christian" does not make one a disciple of Jesus, it just makes one a member of a religion.
     
  14. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    it only counts 'subjectively' for those who align with those pre determined beliefs that seem set in stone, though I imagine [not being a self labelled Christian] in todays world in all its complex diversity, that very many so-called Christians, who have absorbed the prominent paradigm of Reason, rationality, relativity, individualism, pluralism and globalisation..will have a personal take according to their own authority rather than any official one, which has also been broken down considerably due to these pervasive concepts that not even faith can escape from.

    Why are you trying to imagine a scenario from from an unimaginable pov? we only need to align with the Self within the Self, the I and I, or eye of Ra that sees everything!

    We not only experience our own state of being, but also others so its a little leap [of the imagination to the 'unimaginable'] to assume, presume, belief, or 'entertain' the idea that our intentions, actions and behaviour are not inconsequential, blantantly to ourselves, others, and 'everything' else ie the ALL.
     
  15. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    The thing with churches and AA is that notwithstanding the good they do, they have this habit of making people feel guilty, for example:
    Church- you are a sinner and are only saved through the grace of God and that, not of yourself.
    AA -You are an alcoholic and are only saved through the intervention of our meetings without which you will slide back into your substance abusing habits.

    Groups like this are problematic to me due to these aspects and they are fundamental mainbeams of their structure.
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste shawn,

    Depends on the church.

    We aren't stuck on any original sin...and for us we believe we are punished by our sins, not for them...and both saving and guiliting is personal event not to be doen by the church.
     
  17. Dream

    Dream Well-Known Member

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    I agree there is far too much guilt. Part of it is the confusion surrounding verses like those you quoted, where people think murder is considered an equal sin to thinking a dirty thought. If you only read the NT without any scriptural background, then you might think murder is a sin that Jesus died for. Well, he didn't and wouldn't have. That's not the way it works. If it did, then we'd be all as guilty as murderers whenever we made a mistake of any kind, but we're not.

    The NT is in Greek, and so 'Sin' and 'Sin' can mean two different things, just as 'Love' and 'Love' can mean different things when you are using English. The way you tell the difference is by reading and understanding the Whole Bible. In the Bible, purposeful murder and the other biggies do not have a sacrifice associated with them at all. (Look up the sacrifices and what they are for.) It follows that they are not something that Jesus death is meant to deal with, either. 'Sin' often refers not to purposeful malicious acts, but to the need for ceremonial cleansing and general purifying of thoughts and actions. Purification involves sacrifice and washing (think baptism) both physical and otherwise, and it is required for staying connected with other believers.(ICor6:14 is related) There is no purification for murder and other 'Big' sins. Example: David was not permitted to build the temple because he had blood on his hands. He was not put to death but his guilt remains to this day. David is as guilty now as he was the day he committed the deed, and that will never be covered by any sacrifice. That isn't what sacrifices are for. They are for purification, the forgiveness of sins.

    Among other things, confusion about this has kept people from rejecting excessive guilt. Guilt is good but only in moderation -- in direct proportion to what you've done. When you feel too much guilt, you need to realize it; but if you cannot distinguish bad from horrible then there is no way to do that.
     
  18. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear it.
    I know there are reasonable people who are also christians, but it is not always the case, in fact it is the minority.
    The official position of the majority is as I mentioned previously and that is a very unreasonable position.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    There is a parable:
    "Two men went up to the temple to pray... "
    Luke 18:10-14

    Worth considering.

    Thomas
     
  20. friendofbill

    friendofbill Established Member

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    Interesting. In 35 years as a member of AA I have never heard this oattitude expressed. What I have heard is, "If you are an alcoholic, we have a program that may help you recover." We acknowledge that other programs, including psychiatric treatment, rehab, and church, are effective for many where AA would not be effective. And we never, ever, say to anyone, newcomer or otherise, "You are an alcoholic." It is undertood throughout AA that that is a decision the individual must make for himself, based on what he may hear in meetings and read in AA literature.

    So I suggest that perhaps your charactrizartion of AA is a generalization from the vantage point of one who has no immediate acquaintance with the program or how it works.

    OTOH, I think you have summarized the attitude of the Christian religion rather nicely. Still, I think you'd find, if you explored some relly profound Christian writers such as C. S. Lewis or G. K. Chestrton, that a simplistic "25 words or less" summarization of Christianity leaves something to be desired -- namely, the depth of philosophical possibiilities contained therein.
     

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