"This place is dangerous for trying to find truth"

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Avi, Nov 6, 2009.

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  1. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    What? You have something better to do? Well then, do it then man!

    And congratulations. I've been trying to escape from this quagmire for months now. But just like the TV show, The Prisoner, IO sends out this giant bubble that hunts me down and drags me back in.

    17, if you really do make it out alive, don't forget about us wretched souls left behind.

    No go, my son... *gasp*... GO!
     
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Would love to discuss this further - had some interesting discussions on Past Lives and would be interesting to refresh the conversation.
     
  3. the breeze

    the breeze blowing down the road

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    I'd go a step further than earl and say also our perception of scientific law is filtered through consciousness and therefore whether it's accurate or not is uncertain.

    Gravity is an interesting example because as far as I know the explanation of how and why it functions has changed completely since Newton. Didn't Newton view it as a force that attracts via mass? Isn't it now understood that mass distorts space and effectively creates grooves that become the orbits of planets and so on? So the same observable phenomena is explained in very different ways?

    We can observe things happening and put forward plausible explanations that are widely accepted but we cannot definitively prove anything. We could have a completely incorrect explanation that makes perfect sense. All we really know is that if we do A then B usually follows.

    But, to go a step further, I can't prove that this website exists because I can't definitively prove that the physical world exists as I perceive it. I can't step outside my subjective consciousness and look at how I perceive and my relationship to the (perhaps) external world.

    It may be that one day I'll wake up and think that this has all been a dream. I find this impossible to rule out as a possibility so the rules of the physical universe are provisional as far as I am concerned.

    You see I got through a whole post without mentioning meme ... oh damn!
     
  4. Raksha

    Raksha New Member

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    Brian,

    Well...yeah, maybe. I'm not sure I'm ready to discuss it in depth, but then I wouldn't have posted that note if I weren't close to it, or at least closer to it than I was before. After all, nobody twisted my arm and made me do it. It was just another spur-of-the-moment impulse that I gave in to (nothing new about THAT!), but then I guess there was a reason for that too.

    --Linda
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste 17,

    I don't see it that way. There have been many posts that have spurred thought, spurred growth, spurred a new understanding that I have appreciated on this site. Both from folks currently here and many that have moved on. Also from folks I agree with and folks I don't, and from folks of my religion and of others.

    While there exist many a book that says quit reading books go out and do... and in truth there are many choices as to places for me to stop in, this is a great rest stop. I don't play in other forums this is sort of a comfortable home...

    And as I believe G!d doesn't send us patient people to learn patience....there is all sorts of stuff I can learn from the folks here...

    To paraphrase another, or rather to distort another quote....It takes a forum to raise a consciousness.
     
  6. the breeze

    the breeze blowing down the road

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    Raksha,

    This is very interesting because it's a bit like looking in the mirror and saying, 'that's really me' as opposed to just seeing an image that's kind of unreal. It's as though we are wilfully ignorant or afraid to know who or what we really are. You caught a glimpse of the reality behind the facade, maybe that's what was so scary.
     
  7. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    ..and a mirror [ie the world] to show yourself who you are ie 'the' truth, and/or [2 way], the mirror distorts!
     
  8. Raksha

    Raksha New Member

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    Breeze,

    It has become a little less scary now that I am finally able to drag it into the light of consciousness where actual changes can take place, although you still couldn't call it a picnic. But I've noticed some changes even in the three days since I posted that note.

    What made it possible is that I am finally willing to give up the errors of that incarnation, to put them behind me. I learned what I needed to learn, and what's left are basically just bad habits or conditioned reflexes. That was what made it possible for me to confront it and even write about it, which I did again in an e-mail earlier this afternoon.

    Again, you could look at it outside of a reincarnation context and call it a Jungian "confrontation with the Shadow," and that would be completely valid.

    --Linda
     
  9. GlorytoGod

    GlorytoGod There is a River

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    Just a thought but if your looking for the truth on the internet then you are probably lost anyway, so the worst that could happen is that you would get more lost :eek:
     
  10. the breeze

    the breeze blowing down the road

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    Whatever the explanation it sounds like you turned around and bumped right into yourself.

    In general I think we're very attached to the security of our seeming solidity and when this is threatened by unwanted perceptions or realizations we tend to retreat or rationalise things away. So it's great that you held onto this experience for so long and are now dealing with the possible implications.

    I'm curious to know whether you had specific memories from the life or whether it was more a feeling of identification and familiarity - obviously if you don't want to discuss it here further that's fine.
     
  11. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Raksha,

    I did not know quite how to respond to your initial post on your 'experience'. Being new here I did not want to wade into this scathingly sceptical as obviously the experience was deeply meaningful to you. But I am sceptical, profoundly so, that this apparently life altering event has anything to do with having had a past incarnation.

    What simmers away in the subconscious mind we are blind to till it rears its head after some trigger event. I read extensively on past lives and the data provided by so many claimants. With the sceptics head on there is simply no evidence anybody has ever provided that is conclusive enough to achieve credibility. When not outright fraud a careful analysis of claims reveals either subtle prompting, previous reading or some sort of prior knowledge of a person/subject explains the claims. Either that or the claims are simply unverifiable or, as it seems to me the case for you, you have empathised with a person/events you have learned of and on some psychological level given it an inflated importance. This need not be negative, though if it is distressing it may be, but simply represents the unconscious mind grappling with some difficulty in your life experience.

    As I intimated my own experience was very real to me until the body of evidence grew too big for me to ignore. I did develop multi-tiered and compelling arguments to support my illusion. I learned to see how and why I constructed my evidence and quickly the beliefs fell away like sand through fingers. But whilst in the grip of the illusion it was very real. We believe what we want to believe. Whatever it is/was that stimulated you to your experience I hope that it brings about positive thinking for you and that you can draw strength from it. It maybe you value the experience but at some point, when you are ready, try looking at it as I would.
     
  12. Raksha

    Raksha New Member

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    Tau,

    I don't know why, but nobody ever seems to take me at my word when I say, "I'm not asking you to believe this"! But I absolutely mean it, and that's why I'm making no attempt to "prove" it one way or the other. There is nothing to "prove" anyway since I have no specific memories of this incarnation, if that's what it was. I'm aware that there are people who do have such memories, but I'm not one of them. You could call it a profound sense of identification that happened almost immediately. I tried to tell you earlier that I didn't "construct" anything because there wasn't enough time for that.

    I'm well aware that there's a difference between subjective reality and objective or consensual reality. But that doesn't mean subjective reality is any less real and shouldn't be taken seriously, even if it's open to interpretation.

    Thank you for not being "scathingly sceptical" anyway.

    --Linda
     
  13. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    And one of the top ****e peddlers with " Posts: 8,635 ", must be Teh Wise Filosph3r. But at least a lot of his ****e is funny.;)
     
  14. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    I don't try to sell ****ing bull**** to anyone mate.... I just **** around cause I have nothing better to do.... I'm at work.

    8,635 posts? Yeah cause I've been here for like.... Years.
     
  15. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    I know;) I am just being cheeky.
    Besides, we need your input here as an antidote to all the real ****e which does get peddled.
     
  16. the breeze

    the breeze blowing down the road

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    I guess patronising is the most polite word that springs to mind.

    There is a problem here that real discussions about personal experiences are very difficult to maintain because there´s always a materalist-evangelist lying in wait to explain that a scientist hasn´t given the seal of approval to this or that experience.

    As for Tao´s specific point, yes that´s what you concluded but that doesn´t make it a universal ´truth´ that we all have to accept. It´s your opinion and that´s all it is.

    I find Raksha´s story quite fascinating and would love to discuss it further but I suppose it´s not possible here where everything is a debate with Tao or other zealots.
     
  17. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    I guess patronising is the most polite word that springs to mind.

    All I ever give here is my opinion, you not got that yet? For someone who thinks they can hide behind saying nothing of substance you do have a lot to say!. Oh to see yourself as others see you...



    Snoopy is an old timer here who recently left without saying goodbye. You remind me of him with sarcasm turned to maximum.
     
  18. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    I did take you at your word. And I believe you had a meaningful experience. I was just giving my opinion on what may have caused it. If you did not want to invite comment then perhaps you should not have posted it?

    You seem to think it was something sudden. How are you sure? How do you know your psyche was not grappling with the issues it brought to the surface for a long time before it happened? You jump to the conclusion that the only explanation is reincarnation, which is the most improbable yet most romantic explanation. Perhaps you are just a romantic? How much effort did you put into looking for an alternative rational? Not much I bet.
     
  19. the breeze

    the breeze blowing down the road

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    Whatever it is/was that stimulated you to your experience I hope that it brings about positive thinking for you and that you can draw strength from it. It maybe you value the experience but at some point, when you are ready, try looking at it as I would.

    You see this is what I mean as patronising. ´Try looking at it as I would.´ It´s all a delusion and if you could see as clearly as Tao you´d know the truth.

    All I ever give here is my opinion, you not got that yet?

    I get that you think your opinion is the truth.

    Oh to see yourself as others see you...

    Well, yes, I'm getting an impression of someone who is quite disturbed.

    Snoopy is an old timer here who recently left without saying goodbye. You remind me of him with sarcasm turned to maximum.

    I´m not snoopy and where have I been sarcastic?
     
  20. Raksha

    Raksha New Member

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    Breeze,

    I think materialist-evangelists (good phrase!) are a very interesting phenomenon. Tao isn't the first one I've run into...there seems to be one on every interfaith discussion board I've ever frequented. It's obvious that they get some kind of real satisfaction out of their position--I'm not sure if it's ego gratification or something deeper than that.

    I think it may have something to do with the fact that human consciousness cannot imagine or conceive of its own annihilation, or if it can it's the most utterly horrendous thing anyone can imagine. I believe it was the Spanish existentialist philosopher Unamuno who said it's even more horrible to contemplate than an eternity of torment in hell.

    I think there's a certain satisfaction that comes from seeing yourself as so completely tough-minded that you convince yourself that *THE* worst of all possibilities is The Truth, i.e. that there is no soul, and that consciousness ceases at bodily death. Of course that begs the question of where does it come from in the first place--among other things.

    Right.

    I'm not going to discuss it any further here, although if I had the time I'd be happy to discuss it with you by PM. But I'm NOT going to be manipulated into a position where I'm expected to prove according to some objective scientific standard of proof something I was never trying to prove in the first place...especially not that way.

    Basically I think the scientific method is the wrong tool for the job when it comes to evaluating any kind of experience of non-ordinary reality, even telepathy which is the most common. You are just NOT going to be able to come up with a repeatable experiment no matter how careful you are. Even the best psychics have "off" days when it just doesn't happen.

    But that doesn't mean I have to ignore the mountains of anecdotal evidence, or explain away my own subjective experiences from a materialistic POV just because Tao does. He chooses his attitude every bit as much as I choose mine.

    --Linda
     
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