Home Defense.

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by 17th Angel, Dec 15, 2009.

  1. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    and I'll remember how pedantic you are in future, just as well this is a forum and not a court of law:rolleyes: In any case l perhaps should have been more specific on that point as l was thinking on serious or repetitive crimes and at the time was agreeing with Paths opinion that certain criminals shouldn't even be jailed. The system as it stands needs to be re evaluated.

    What is your view on capital punishment then CZ?
     
  2. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    I'd hardly describe my unease over your proposal to institute "civil death" as being "overly concerned with minute detail".

    I am against it. As a Buddhist, I want to give everybody as much opportunity to better themselves in this life in order to set the stage for the next one.

    Most of us mature as we age. I would think this true of even those who murder. Through counseling, access to books, and time, even the most hardened criminal mind might open up to compassion and wisdom.

    I am more than willing to give them that opportunity.
     
  3. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    I don't think we are all that different in our views; just that in my view those separated from society being punished for a crime are not citizens with full civil rights as they are enclosed in a prison and so are not free like you or or I; they broke the law and the public need to be protected. Some think this lack of freedom is punishment enough as so think access to tv is fair for example. I do take a more 'hardline' approach as I think prisoners should 'work' for the benefit of the 'outside' [and so still exercising an active citizenship in retribution], as well of course 'inner' work using all the various processes available that are known to be therapeutic for the individual and the society, restorative justice being such a balanced approach. One of my points here is that though counselling etc is not as integrated or obligatory as it should be ['funding of the system'] the fact is that it is ironic that prisoners probably do have more [free] available access to psychotherapy, courses, education etc compared to the 'civilian victim' who may have to pay for the privilege of getting their life back on track:confused: I think others were making this point also.
     
  4. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    I'm not accusing you of being fluffy, citizen. :)
     
  5. AndreG

    AndreG New Member

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    double oh my....
     
  6. AndreG

    AndreG New Member

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    eye for an eye has never worked... and it NEVER will. The sooner we can let this go the better!
     
  7. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Andre...... Of course it works....

    That guy had over 50 offenses........ Now I give you my personal guarantee, he shall not re-offend ;)
     
  8. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    just starting to watch this

    [youtube]6CyuBuT_7I4&NR=1[/youtube]
     
  9. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Update: The man who hospitalised an armed robber, has been freed from prison and deservedly so, in my opinion.
     
  10. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    Just to add the guy was not just hospitalised he now has permanent brain damage, letting this dude out was a bad move IMO.
     
  11. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Why is it a bad move?

    It's not like he is going to go around doing this for no reason, UNLIKE the other guy.
     
  12. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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  13. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    So now there's a desire to change the degree of force that a person can use to protect them self from "reasonable" to "grossly disproportionate"?

    That sounds like one giant step backward. When did reason cease to be a desirable standard? Seems to me that we're in a pretty short supply of it. I'd hate to see it become an even rarer commodity.

    Should the standard of "gross disproportionality" be applied to other aspects of our lives as well? Life is difficult enough when we ask people to act reasonably. This ought to liven things up even more. :rolleyes:
     
  14. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    If the person protecting their territory is penalized for protecting themselves, then how is that to be considered a JUST law.
    In nature we observe that natural creatures defend their territory, but they typically do not go beyond what is necessary to defend.
    Once the aggressor has ceased their undesired activity then they do not typically pursue them.
    With people, sometimes one needs to go further though to insure that they fear to return.
    If people are not reasonable then all one is left with is a strong deterrent.
    This is the lesson that the police and the military have driven into all of our heads for centuries.
    "If they will not respect the law, they will respect the bayonet" (To paraphrase a quote I heard once, but do not have a reference for....one of the american founding fathers I think)
     
  15. Shergar

    Shergar Interfaith Forums

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    This is a religious forum. Do you really expect support for reason?
     
  16. Shergar

    Shergar Interfaith Forums

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    Absolutely nothing new in this for me, but well worth the watch anyway. Of course the Bush family have ties to opium and heroin production going back at least 80 years. The Taliban was the most serious disruption to that business they ever encountered. Curious that supplies are now greater and cheaper than ever after our war on terror.
     
  17. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    I think the entire problem was that an armed gang held a family hostage; they were chased out of the building; and that one of the still armed gang was aggressively confronted.

    Yet the armed gang got away without any conviction, yet the people who stopped them were imprisoned.

    As the judge in the appeal points out, though, it is an exceptional case - the same week a Sikh was knifed to death by a mugger he'd given chase to.

    The whole issue is one of defining the boundaries between defence vs vigilantism the problem being the law as it's seen in this country is that you are not allowed to stand up to crime, simply that. And anyone who does is worse than the original criminal.

    Spiritually, it's powerful to turn the other cheek when facing against ideology - but individually, the inability to defend ourselves against mindless physical violence demands some form of action.

    In the US, there are protections in place that seem generally clear on the boundaries of self-protection, but this is not clear at all in the UK, hence the out trage over the Munir case.
     
  18. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    Do you support changing the degree that a person can defend themselves and extract violent retribution from "reasonable" to "grossly disproportionate"?

    Just curious.
     
  19. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Powerful to turn the other cheek? I think you got the wrong P word :/ You meant Pathetic right?

    To turn the other cheek makes you a freaking fool, People that can turn the other cheek get walked all over. Nature doesn't support the weak and passive. *shrugs*

    Stand up, or get stood on.
     
  20. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    I think someone violently confronted will be subject to a range of emotions that will necessarily demand fight or flight - and that it is easy, with a long period of calm reflection, to designate what may or may not constitute a reasonable degree of force - a luxury not afforded to someone caught up in the heat of the moment of being forced to defend themselves or their family.

    This is a key part of the problem - what is "reasonable" force? What exact actions does this entail? IT's not about retribution - it's simply as to whether and to what degree someone in the UK can defend against violence. IT's an issue that's been coming up for years and is reaching a tipping point.

    Of course, if this had occurred in the US, and Munir had had a gun and simply shot the intruders on his property instead of having to chase, I figure the story would barely make the small print news.
     

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