The WWII question

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Amica, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Amica

    Amica Well-Known Member

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    Peace to everyone--

    According to this source:
    World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Total civilian deaths of WWII range between 34 million--46 million, out of which there is roughly 6 million Jews.

    Although I feel it does not matter how many people are killed, for in my eyes one person is too horrible a crime and of course more than that is even worse.

    But, why then, is the holocaust attributed only to the Jews? Surely, if one is to compare the numbers 30 million is 5 times that of 6 million. Why did the holocaust become exclusively jewish, when the 30+ million were just as innocent? They fought back Hitler and his supporters because they did not believe in oppression and racism.

    And the evidence shows that it was not only the Jews who were in concentration camps. According to the sources we have, for instance, in the concentration camp Jasenovac (Croatia, former Yugoslavian republic) there were 30,000 Jews, close to half a million of Orthodox Christians (Serbs) and several thousands others (Muslims, Roma, some Catholics as well).

    So why is the holocaust only associated with the Jews?
     
  2. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro Moderator

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    I think that it's because (except for the Roma and the "homosexuals") the other groups that were victims of the Holocaust were welcomed back into the communities they were removed from. The Jewish population, the Roma population and the "homosexual" population were treated like the convicted sex offender in modern society ("Not In My Backyard!")

    Unlike the Roma (which didn't/doesn't have a large population, isn't "static" along with having a social stigma) and the "homosexuals" (which still has a huge social stigma), the Jewish population is more-or-less static, large and acceptable/accepted.

    Before you ask, the reason I have homosexual in quotes is because a person didn't have to actually be homosexual, just accused of being one to be removed from his community. And the social stigma of the Roma is that they are are all swindlers and/or violent thieves. Although they do have members who are, so do almost all populations.

    Another thing: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease", especially after the Allies found what they did in the camps. During the Great Depression and WWII, countries like the United States and England had a set amount of each population who could immigrate from each country ("We don't want these new people to take the jobs we don't really have,") and those who weren't let in were usually sent back to where they came from. Ship of Fools is a book about just one incident of this (I'm not sure if it is the fictional book or if there's a nonfiction book with the same title. :eek:)

    Sorry for the rambling. :eek:

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste Amica...

    Take a look at the millions that were killed during the war...most of it was exactly that, war.

    But which country rounded up and herded a percentage of its people into concentration camps and then into gas chambers? These folks weren't killed in war, the attempted taking of or protecting of lands...they were simply taken from their homes, placed on trains, herded into camps and then methodically killed. Who were the majority of these people killed in such a horrific manner that is today called the holocaust (as oppposed to the war)...they would be the Jews...

    Is there some reason you think we should minimize the horror of this specific targeting of one religious group?
     
  4. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    I like the way you put that Wil.


    Amica, peace to you as well !

    But, I do not understand your point. You seem reasonable. Why are you asking an insensitive question ? Can you imagine if the same proportion of Muslims were killed as Jews in WWII. Probably that would be over 100- 250 million. How do you feel thinking about that scenario ? Now can you understand why it is such a sensitive issue for Jews ?

    Anyway, I think it is good you asked the question. I think you probably do not realize how sensitive the issue is. Perhaps Wils comments and those of others will make you see what I am trying to bring to your attention.
     
  5. Amica

    Amica Well-Known Member

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    Peace to all of you--

    My apologies to all who found my question insenstive/offensive--it certainly is not my intention.
    The point I am trying to make is this: there are others, non-Jews, who were also rounded up and murdered in gas chambers and tortured in many other ways as well.
    Although my people were persecuted by the Serbs (Christian Orthodox) in 1992, I feel that as a Muslim I cannot lie: Serbs were persecuted in WWII in hundreds of thousands. Men, women, children--all herded up along with Jews in the horrible Jasenovac concentration camp. I am sure, that there are other people who ended up with the same way in other countries.
    I am not denying that holocaust happened, and I am not denying that Jews suffered--because they trully did. I would be unjust to say it never happened.
    I guess I am just asking: why is it only associated with the Jews?

    Muslims and many other non-Communists were rounded up under Stalin's regime and murdered in hundreds of thousands. I think the number murdered is in millions. So, how come that cannot also be proclaimed as holocaust?
    Or what about Jews and Muslims during the Crusades and Inquisition?

    I am just struggling why 6 million is elevated above 34+ million of others? NO offense meant--please!
    I think we are all equal, human beings. My life is not more worth than anyone else's. To me personally, one human life=millions of others meaning I value EVERYONE's life! You kill one life its like you killed all humanity in my eyes! And I think both the Holy Bible and Noble Qur'an also instruct that.
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste Amica...

    Well you seem to continue. The holocaust is not in reference to the war dead... it is in reference to the those that were herded and gassed. Now I'm not looking anythning up, but my recollection is 11 million dead, 6 million of them Jews. Now of the number of the Jews in the area...the vast majority were rounded up and headed to the camps...if they hadn't been freed probably most of them would have been dead...you may be correct it wasn't a holocaust for Jews, it was an attempt at genocide. Of those other 5 million (we aren't referring in this case to the other millions that died in the war fighting or at Russia's hands...the holocaust refers to those dying in the camps at the hands of the Germans) of those 5 million we've got a variety of people, but nothing as collective as 6 million Jews...

    Now when we refer to WWII we talk of all the dead...that is your 34 million...the holocaust refers to the 11 million, the majority of which were Jews...now do you understand?
     
  7. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    Amica, because it is not.

    Anybody who looks into the issue will find that other people were swept up in the Holocaust. Please note the second paragraph of the article from Wikipedia....

    The Holocaust

    The Holocaust (from Greek ὁλόκαυστος [holókaustos]: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"), also known as The Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, Latinized ha'shoah; Yiddish: חורבן, Latinized churben or hurban) is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a program of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany, under Adolf Hitler, its allies, and collaborators.

    Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups, including ethnic Poles, the Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, people with disabilities, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other political and religious opponents. By this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims would be between 11 million and 17 million people.


    So while the Holocaust may be primarily associated with Jews, is is not only associated with them. And it takes just a minimal amount of knowledge or digging to find that out.
     
  8. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    It really pays to inform ourselves......or people will take advantage of that.
     
  9. Amica

    Amica Well-Known Member

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    Hi/peace--

    Well, according to the statistics the numbers of the dead non-combatant is staggering. Ukranian non-combatants alone (non-Jews) are estimated between 5.5million--7.7million. Also, the Nazis held in the concentration camps many non-Jews as well. While any victim, Jewish or not, should be honored, I think when people talk about Holocaust, non-Jewish victims must be remembered as well. But, it seems, more so in North America and western Europe, the Holocaust is most exclusively remembered as the one against Jews.
     
  10. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    I think the reason why we remember the Holocaust so much is simple - it was industrial mass murder of people on a huge scale.

    Many of WWII's dead accrued over years from bombing runs and direct combat.

    The horrifying aspect of the Jewish deaths (and Romanies, gays, disabled, etc) is the fact that someone put in place a industrial method of killing people in large numbers very cleanly - a coldly planned and technologically executed genocide.

    In war, it has always been the case that combatants and civilians would be killed. What Hitler did with the death camps was something new and unseen - an attempt to wipe out an entire people through industrial means.

    That's the horror of the death camps - it wouldn't matter whether it was 1 million, 4 million, or 6 million killed - the method and scale remains the horror, not the actual numbers.

    Stalin is attributed with 30 million deaths in his reign - but because these were over a long period, in majority due to starvation from disastrous farming reforms, and not through industrial means, it does not shock us so much, even though the figures are terrible.
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste Amica,

    So my question still, why do you take this so personally, what is it to you?

    Did you lose a family member and don't feel they are properly represented?

    Do you have a need to correct all misrepresentations of history?

    Or just this one?

    Tell us why this bothers you so.
     
  12. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    Another interesting question is why isn't the genocide of the many nations of Native Americans considered a holocaust, while the genocide of Jews is?

    food for thought: American Holocaust - David Stannard
     
  13. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    Amica, it sounds very much as if you are looking to excuse continued efforts to exterminate the Jews.
     
  14. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Back to the original question - the reason, I presume, that we remember Jews most with regards to the Holocaust, is that they were the largest population demographic specifically targeted by the Nazis for complete extermination as a people.

    The number of Jewish dead are reportedly far higher than any other ethnic group - here's a suggestion of stats from Wikipedia:
    The Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Victims Killed Source
    Jews 5.9 million [185]
    Soviet POWs 2–3 million [186]
    Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million [187][188]
    Romani 220,000–1,500,000 [189][190]
    Disabled 200,000–250,000 [191]
    Freemasons 80,000–200,000 [192]
    Homosexuals 5,000–15,000 [193]
    Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500–5,000 [194]

     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    It is in my book. The treatment of Blacks and our indigenous peoples is still apalling, and we need to figure out a way to modify this....so we can move forward in the future without it....although we'll never be able to eliminate the stain...
     
  16. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Where those killed people treated like animal?

    Treated worse than a gourmets knife does?

    Eat by the sword --die by the butchers methods.

    Karma management is only negotiable during human birth.

    The world has a "sucker born every day".

    The rent is high because the landlord requested higher payment ---and everyone does the same to the person below their station in life ---until everyone is guity of greed-enmass overload.

    Economic Refugees immigrating to other countries are sighs that the weathy members of the abandoned old country were guilty of extortion.

    We are extorting each other simultaneously and we are leaving it to school children to grow up and pay for past criminals to continue to define society's standard of living.
     
  17. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    Well, in terms of the original question, the word "Holocaust" is the word used for what the Jews went through because the Jews coined it for themselves. We might as well ask why only the Palestinians had a "Naqba"; I mean, there were millions of displaced Germans and Chinese and others at that time too, so why is it only the Palestinians that get to call a mass displacement a "Naqba"?
     
  18. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    Better publicists?
    Ones with a big axe to grind perhaps??

    Bunch of whiners.

    Move on I say.
    Look at the BS the First Nations peoples have gone through and sure they bitch about it (and justly so), but compared to the others, they say very little....far less than they ought to.
     
  19. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    I've never heard of it.

    How good could those publicists be?

    They should call it New Naqba®

    Now with 10% more suffering!
     
  20. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    That's funny.;)
     

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