The WWII question

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Amica, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    You doubt that do you? Do you know of Rachel Corrie?

    [youtube]UK8Z3i3aTq4[/youtube]

    She was there cause she cared.... :)

    Bare with me... *browses*

    Rachel Corrie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Obviously is infamous case... But look at the references at the bottom.. There are more cases there.

    LOL wait, what? Because a bulldozer... Isn't a silent machine... It is the innocent people's fault that these israli so and so's crushed them and their homes? Really? I mean... Seriously? You believe that?
     
  2. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    With regard to the bulldozers etc.:

    Of all people, I'd expect Israelis to see through their politicos; but I guess they are human after all. Palestinians? I have not met any, however I'm in a country that gets religiously manipulated frequently. I know what it is like. It is very comforting as long as you are surrounded by people who believe exactly the same way, but its the people having to live on the edges that are uncomfortable. Politicos stay in the crowd but push those in front of them forward. We are seeing religious people being manipulated by politicos, creating a storm between two groups. One nation uses belief against another nation, but in the future this will eventually not happen. It is not necessary, and I think it can be made politically undesirable. At least I think it is possible to end it with continual effort. For the time being it is still internationally sanctioned.
     
  3. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain New Member

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    The reason that some Jews stress the Holocaust so much to the present day while other targeted groups do not is that there doesn't seem to be a large, powerful, and popular international movement of governments (Iran, etc.) and non-government organizations (Al Qaeda, etc.) that actively advocate extermination of the other target groups--although the Roma are also still targeted.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2010
  4. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    The events that followed the Rachel Corrie case were disgusting - as soon as she died, the group she was working for released a series of images supposedly showing how the digger came and hit her, and how it could not have done so without intending to hit her.

    Only problem is, the photos were all taken on different days, as was shown by the fact that the weather and cloud patterns were very different in each photo.

    The group admitted the deceit, but seemed to feel justified in trying to use the death of their supposed friend as nothing more than an exercise in propaganda.

    It happened at a time when this site was young and I was going to allow a friend involved in these groups to use the site as a platform to promote the Palestinian cause.

    When the Rachel Corrie story broke, and the following debacle, I realised I would be stupid and naive to allow the site to get caught up in what is essentially a propaganda war over Gaza.

    Ever since then, despite inherent concerns for the overall situation, I regard Palestinian and affiliate group's reports and press announcements with at least equal cynicism as official military announcements from the IDF.
     
  5. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro

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    Um, the "homosexual community" is still targeted, too.

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  6. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    Well just because you are jewish doesnt give you the right to "thread-grab".

    My apologies for that. Couldnt keep it, specially when its so obvious.

    But seriously, did you click the link I gave? Or just like the other zionists you want everybody to run on the track you are habitual to run on.........using holocaust denial, anti-semitism, "gentile-stupidity" both as an argument & an evasive technique. Did you find anything even remotely related to holocaust-denial in my post or the link I gave. Infact the author is a son of holocaust surviver himself. Most probably you didnt even click. And that my friend is "balant prejudice". Killing the messenger rather than giving heed to the message....... another ancient tradition?

    I've got enough brains to separate my self from the global herd. Ofcourse this very act is considered stupid (& a dangerous tendency) by herd members.

    So if you still havent clicked the link, take a deep breath.........& do it. Use you critical faculties, dont let them think for you.

    And why this hate against Iran? they dont wag their tail......right?
     
  7. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain New Member

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    So long as Iran allows itself to be ruled by a man who openly calls for outright genocide, some people will object to Iran.
     
  8. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    So.............. How about that holocaust?
     
  9. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain New Member

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    Denial--which stage of genocide is that, anyway?
     
  10. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    I am curious, when did that happen? May I remind you, "mahw az safha-e-tarikh ast" means effaced from the pages of history. Open genocide is another stupid zioganda.
     
  11. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    Slow down there, Tiger.... Did you read what I said? I said bulldozing someone's house is cruel. I also find it hard to believe that someone could be caught by surprise by bulldozers lumbering down the street at eight miles an hour. Then again, I don't live in Gaza City. I'm still allowed to speculate, though.

    I find it's always better to read what a person says before responding...
     
  12. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    who said it did? all i am trying to do is actually raise this discussion beyond the level of peanut-gallery ignorance. as usual, you are displaying your predictable bigotry, but then, that's all i can expect from you.

    i know all about norman finkelstein, thank you very much. he has made a career decision - and that is to create this horrible idea of a "holocaust industry", which he can then set himself up as the Brave Opposer And Exposer Of Things They Don't Want You To Know like all other conspiracy theorists. he has little academic standing or credibility - i don't accuse him of jew-hatred, because he's always quite clear about that (unlike yourself) but he is certainly popular reading with jew-haters. i'd like to think he had the courage of his convictions, but he has found extremely supportive and well-funded friends - i believe his writing sells very well in the middle east.

    no, it's knowing an old chestnut when you see one. look - i am the last to argue with the idea that some people have hit upon the holocaust as a "get out of jail free" card and an excuse for any type of unpleasantness, but i am not one of those people. however, because some people abuse the memory of the holocaust, it does not therefore follow that all who attempt to preserve its memory are doing so because they want to Hide The Crimes Of The Zionist Entity, nor does it follow that all who criticise the Any Excuse Zionists are doing so merely out of concern to expose the Any Excuse Zionists. it is your assumption that i, because i am a jew, are automatically an Any Excuse Zionist, that is "blatant" (note spelling) prejudice.

    except that regurgitating the arguments of the Undermining The Holocaust Is An Essential Part Of The Struggle Against The Zionist Entity islamist crowd is a herd activity in its own right.

    sorry, farhan, is that an accusation that judaism advocates the killing of messengers? if so, i think you'd better substantiate that or withdraw it.

    i don't hate iran. i'd rather like to visit there and i think farsi is the most beautiful language in the world. the thing i have a problem with is a regime that is bent on genocide and, in particular, genocide of myself and my family and most of my friends. i would have thought you yourself might have a problem with a regime that uses torture and rape to intimidate its own voters in order to falsify election results. as mrs bananabrain said when she first heard about that: "you can't tell me it's in the Qur'an to do stuff like that!" - and she was right, too. not that that appears to bother you.

    jew-hating neologisms, too. i'm amazed you think this is appropriate engagement for an interfaith dialogue site, you nasty little dog's pizzle.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  13. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain New Member

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    "Effaced from the pages of history" is equivalent to genocide in the mind of anyone who is not a lunatic or mass murderer.
     
  14. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Well, one of my friends a long time ago in his adolescent days said, the solution to the middle east is to nuke it off the face of the planet.

    Frankly, I too nowadays feel like saying "can we nuke them and forget about it?". It would save American's a ton of money.

    And the nuke intended for the Nazi's which Einstein is responsible for were dropped in Japan. We haven't even started to address this WWII question. If it was possible I'd like these Holocaust Jewish people send someone over to Hiroshima on how to make a big fuss, so that the Japanese can start complaining.
     
  15. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain New Member

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    Y'know when I hear about the Holocaust? When some denizen of a toilet bowl rears up on its hind legs and makes a bunch of noise about how much he hates how the Jews have "hijacked" the Holocaust or that the Holocaust never happened. At nearly no other time to I hear about the Holocaust.
     
  16. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff New Member

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    I'm amazed you think this is appropriate language for an interfaith dialogue. Aren't you a moderator? Can't you moderate yourself?

    I managed to pass the first sixteen years of my life without knowing what antisemitic meant. When I found out I couldn't understand it or believe it. In the 60s it was cool to have spent time working on a kibbutz. Now all that has changed, and the reserve of sympathy or guilt that Israel could call upon has virtually dried up. Successive Israeli governments slide from what used to be a recognizably European centre-left democracy towards a sort of Zimbabwe of the East. (Not there yet, but heading that way). It is quite wrong that Jews around the world should be expected to be apologists for the Israeli government, but nonetheless that's how it is. And so people, not just on this forum but elsewhere, are beginning to re-examine their attitude and their view of history.

    I am sorry it has come to this. And I'm afraid it will get worse.
     
  17. Bertrand_Russell

    Bertrand_Russell New Member

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    That is exactly how racism starts, with historical revisionism.

    No need to apologize. We all understand where you are coming from. As a philosopher I can clearly see your racism, even when it is heavily veiled.
     
  18. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    yes, but there has to be a limit. i have been putting up with farhan's culturally-brainwashed conspiracy-mongering jew-hatred for a lot longer than you. the sad thing is that he's actually quite reasonable on other subjects, but get him on this and it's like talking to a machine.

    anyway, pointless to continue, thread closed.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  19. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    ok, saltmeister emailed me a really thoughtful response which i thought deserved to be posted, so i've reopened the thread.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  20. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    I opened up a reply window before the thread closed but when I tried to post it couldn't get through. Ok..... so now it's back.

    Yeah, it's the good old "kill them all, let God sort them out" strategy.

    Racism is a combination of a number of things leading to unequal and malicious attitudes towards a group of people. I don't think it is fair to call someone "racist" if they don't demonstrate hatred, condescension, discrimination or prejudice towards that group. I don't believe that the person you accused of racism actually demonstrated any signs of racism.

    How can a person be racist if they were formerly inclined to show sympathy to a particular group or to understand such sympathy? A racist person generally doesn't care. The attitude of the racist is that the group they hate or discriminate against do not deserve sympathy at all. The group they despise are subhuman. Do you really think this is the attitude of the poster to which you are responding?

    People who change their minds about supporting Israel are not racist. The fact that they previously supported Israel indicates that they considered the country and its people to be human beings worthy of the same level of dignity. What turns them away from supporting Israel is the actions of its armed forces.

    Is it racist when people choose to oppose and not support a country because of the probably unethical actions of its military? You may have noticed that over the last 12 months I have made some rather anti-American comments. I expressed my disgust over the USA's many social and economic problems. I said how I thought Americans were idiots for letting this happen to their country. I directed my disgust not just at its government and military, but also its people.

    Of course, I can't be racist because Americans aren't a race. They are a nation and I say they're a nation of idiots. But that is besides the point..... I do not believe that expressing disgust at America makes me a malicious person. I am disgusted not because I hate America, but because I expect more from a superpower nation.

    How could Americans let their public education system go down the toilet? How could they let manufacturing move overseas? Why can't they make radical changes to the way they do business to compete with foreign manufacturing firms? For a country that has the most powerful military, for a country that put people on the moon, this is a real shame. To me it seems like a deck of cards that could collapse at any moment because Americans set up such a shoddy system. America is in decline because its people aren't as smart as they used to be. It's just like in the 2006 movie, Idiocracy. There are less university graduates in science and engineering each year. The country is experiencing a brain drain.

    It's a big country and I could never fathom all the things that make it what it is, but it makes me cringe every time I hear or read about social, economic, educational or behavioural problems. More people are having sex and losing their virginity at a young age and eating junk food than ever before. There is more obesity. Jamie Oliver, a foreigner had to go over there to start a food/diet revolution because Americans couldn't reform their own eating habits on their own. The USA is starting to live on junk food and very soon this junk food nation could become a junk people nation.

    No I am not a malicious person for saying these things about America. I am not spewing hatred. It is sympathy that makes me say these things and I believe that the same people who start to oppose Israel who were formerly supportive do it out of sympathy. How could Israel do this to itself? How could Israel sabotage its relationship with the international community by allowing its armed forces to be "so irresponsible" in dealing with its adversaries, whether they are Palestinians or people on the border? Why is Israel shooting itself in the foot?

    Personally I think the situation is far too complicated for me to decide whether to support or oppose Israel based on its actions. I never really kept up with all the news surrounding Israel. There were too many things happening.

    Some people accuse Israel of committing "genocide." Some people accuse anyone who opposes Israel of racism. I think both of these attitudes are extreme. Genocide is a systematic attempt to wipe out an entire race. You deliberately target a particular group for extermination. Racism is where you treat a certain group of people as subhuman and less deserving of the level of dignity offered to normal human beings.

    The people who support Israel think Israel gets too little support. Those who oppose Israel think it gets too much. How do you make judgments on that? Is there a numerical value I can assign to the level of support Israel receives? If by my method of determining the amount of favouritism Israel receives I get a positive value I could say Israel gets too much support. If I get a negative value I could say it gets too little. But how do you calculate this numerical value?

    Everybody who wants to decide whether Israel's actions are justified tries to rationalise their thinking, but it's never treated as a mathematical problem. It's not a numbers game. People can't agree on the level of favouritism Israel receives. There is no objective measure on that.

    In saying that there is no objective measure, that there is no numerical scale of favouritism on which everybody can develop a consensus, I am saying that there is no absolute measure of Israel's moral and ethical status. It's relative.

    This is why I can't decide what to do with Israel. People will come up with reasons for supporting and opposing it and there's no way of deciding which arguments carry more weight. This is one of those situations where you get a so-called "political, ideological pendulum." If you think one side gets too much support, you go for the opposition. You try and push the pendulum back into the middle. Basically, people just decide to support what they think is the weaker side and nobody knows which side is weaker.

    Is Israel a victim, an underdog or an oppressor? I can't decide.
     

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