Did Jesus die on cross or survive near death?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Amergin, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. Amergin

    Amergin Well-Known Member

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    The death and resurrection are a major problem. I realise that about 16 other god-men died and resurrected before Jesus, so the theme was popular. But looking at it as a realist, we have three possibilities.

    1. Jesus died on the cross. Blood flow to his brain ceased. Within a few hours his neuronal nuclei began to die off. If blood was not restored in 3 hours he suffered permanent brain cell loss. Brain cells undergo apoptosis, nuclei fragment, and cells first swell when the mitochondria run out of energy, the K+/Na+ pump has failed. Then the cell breaks down. But by 36 hours the brain is turning into a thick mush with circuits and neuronal generators gone. The grey-white junction is gone. If Jesus died, he couldn't have possibly resurrected because even if his muscles still partially contracted, his brain was mush and incapable of conscious awareness, thinking, reasoning, memory, or moving his limbs.

    Pathologic changes within the neuropil follow the metabolic abnormalities. One of the first effects is cytotoxic oedema that results from failure of the Na/K ion pump. Early on, this stage is still reversible, but only in terms of minutes at room temperature. Soon Calcium ion channels fail and Ca++ influx kills the neurons. Prolonged ischemia leads to cell death and coagulation necrosis of the vessels. After 3-6 hours of ischemia, irreversible damage occurs to the capillary endothelium. Recovery never happens in documented brain death by medical criteria.

    One must postulate magic and big time magic. God would have to rebuild his billion or more neurons, 10 billion astrocytes/glia, many billions of axons, and trillions of synaptic connections in one human brain. They comprise many millions of circuits, circuits overlapping into supercircuits, and networks, a million billion synapses, and a number of neurochemical receptors in the trillions. That would be a horrendous magic trick. If God COULD do that, why did he not heal the relatively minor wrist and ankle wounds?


    2. Jesus did not die on the cross. He was on the cross very briefly (few hours) then went into shock. Dusk at Passover required his quick burial. He was not even given the usual anointing and washings. We know that because the women were going to do that on Sunday Morning. If Jesus did suffer brain anoxia and if it lasted 3-5 hours he would be really totally dead. But he was taken down within three hours. Fluid had accumulated in his legs (oedema) and abdomen (ascites) as he went into cardiogenic shock and autonomic postural hypotensive shock. His pulse and heart beat may have been undetectable. A piercing of the abdomen would have released ascitic fluid of congestive heart failure along with some blood. The gospel reports this.

    Then once down, he was placed in a horizontal position. Blood perfusion and perfusive blood pressure would have recovered. Some lung ventilation could return as the downward pull of the diaphragm was relieved. Lying horizontal may require 6 or more hours of reperfusion of the brain for him to wake up. That may well have occurred in the tomb. Then he gradually stabilised.

    In 38 hours he was up and about. Perhaps he then pushed the boulder enough to roll it back. The rocks used were of two types: most common was a small cubical rock maybe 50 Kg that could be pushed out. The other was basically a stone wheel that sat in a stone groove. Archaeologists verify this. It did not require super strength to get the stone wheel rolling down to open the small tomb opening. After all a woman, Mary Magdalene was going to remove the stone to enter the tomb to anoint Jesus with oils.

    He then walked out. He had not resurrected but recovered from shock. This occurrence is well known in the history of many particular hospitals. Each has its own story. During the mass English reburials when grave space was taking too much room, coffins were opened and bones removed. But scratch marks were supposedly found on 25% of the coffin lids. That sounds like an exaggeration but it surely did happen.

    3. Jesus never was crucified. He may have died of stoning to death as Jesus Ben Pandira 150 years BC. Or Jesus may have retired to an olive farm and died of old age with his loving great grandchildren attending him. And his followers maintained a cult of Judaism based on his teachings (Ebionites). However, a foreigner, Saul of Tarsus, mythologized him and started a new Roman Pagan religion based on Jesus using the borrowed (plagiarised) biography of Mithra for that of Jesus.

    To further test my hypothesis, see my followup post.

    Amergin
     
  2. Amergin

    Amergin Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was crucified in the middle of the day or afternoon. He was taken down before sunset. It means his time on the cross may have been anywhere from one to five hours. Victims of crucifixion often lingered an agonising death on the cross for up to three days. Death in a couple of hours is fishy. So he was supposedly placed in a tomb/cave much like Mithra had been placed. If sundown was 7 PM, and he was in the tomb, at that time, then he spent 5 hours on Friday, 24 hours on Saturday, and 7 hours on Sunday when he walked out. That is 36 hours. Three days, or Three nights is misleading. The number three was picked because it is a magic number and applied to Jonah, Mithra, Apollonius, and most of the other virgin born god-man resurrecting redeemers.

    If the couple hours on the cross produced hypoxia, and brain ischaemia, with acidosis so severe as to kill Jesus, how do we know he really died? He may have dropped his blood pressure so low or suffered cardiac arrest to lose consciousness. In this case his brain was getting no oxygen and no blood flow. He not only had anoxia. He had lack of blood perfusion with O2 and glucose. There was no venous blood removing CO2 and other toxins of metabolism. The build-up of neurotransmitter amines and glutamate plus the destruction of calcium channels in the neurons led to Calcium influx, potassium out flux, water permeation and cell swelling.

    After a couple hours in this severe state the neuronal nuclei would break up. Mitochondria would burst and cease cellular metabolism. Swelling cells would rupture. In a few more hours his brain, axons, astrocytes, and oligodendrocytes would necrose. His capillary network would fragment with clots in the stasis of blood flow. Then the brain would turn into a semi-liquid mush. All fibre circuits would be erased. All memories, language functions, learned motor skills (walking), cognitive processing, emotional circuits, vision, hearing, and autonomic regulation. That rather multi-modal autonomic network would control temperature regulation, sweating, cardiac rate regulation, blood pressure control systems, sexual accessory sequence programmes, and the conscious on-off ARAS switch. All of this would have already been lost.

    If Jesus truly died, the necrotic brain can produce no electrical saltatory transmission. No synapses would be left anyway. This is "Brain Death" which I am compelled to determine to my great sadness in patients about once per week. True Brain Death is determined by:

    1. Loss of pupillary reflexes,
    2. Loss of reflexive eye movements (Doll's eyes and caloric reponses,)
    3. Loss of corneal responses,
    4. Absence of any spontaneous breathing trigger with measured hypoxia/hypercarbia,
    5. Loss of patterned motor responses (flaccid paralysis),

    Today we have the following:

    6. Flat lined EEG done twice 24 hours apart, or non-flow on MRAngiography.
    7. In the 24 hour period, blood tests showing zero sedative drug levels.
    8. Then that is the final form of death, irreversible Brain Death/necrosis.

    None have EVER recovered if the first five criteria are met, in multiple different studies. Since there are no shortages of people dying, the numbers in studies summated are 5 digits. Unfortunately the Gospel writers never mentioned the following:

    No one noted a carotid, radial, or femoral pulse on Jesus.
    No one noted pupillary reactions, (size, symmetry, light, and accommodation.)
    No one noted his ocular motor reflexes (Doll’s Eye, Cold water calorics)
    No one checked his patterned motor responses that may persist in some reversible comas.
    No one recorded total flaccid paralysis, decerebrate or decorticate rigidity, myoclonus.
    No one noted listening to his heart.
    No one noted listening to his lungs with an ear or stethoscope.
    No one noted presence or absence of corneal reflexes.
    No one noted muscle tone.
    Naturally no EEG was done. So we don’t know if he was flat-lined.

    So we can’t say with certainty if he died…on the cross. Until very recent times and in many substandard medical care facilities, determinations of death or brain death prove to be incorrect when the patient awakens screaming in the Morgue. Did Jesus actually die based on the written narrative? We may never know. And if did not die, the rest of the story would be different. There would not have been a resurrection. And we would be celebrating Mithra’s birth on 25 Dec, Mithramas.

    So if Jesus really died, and was dead 36 or 39 hours, his brain was a featureless mush. No blood flow meant no oxygen, no removal of glutamate, no prevention of open Calcium ion channels, and no maintenance of membrane stability of neurones. Then apoptosis (cell death) occurred. There was nothing with which to activate the cortex for consciousness, no perception, no awareness, no vision, no hearing, no tactile sensation, no motor neuronal firing along axons to activate muscles, no circuits to think, or circuits to talk. There would be no neurons, no axons, and no synapses to transmit data.

    To truly resurrect as the person Jesus, his entire brain would have to be remade from scratch with 100 billion intact neurons, axons, myelin sheathes, synapses, ample concentrations of neurotransmitters at pre-synaptic nerve endings, and normal transmitter receptors on healthy dendrites of neurons. The new brain would have to be an EXACT COPY of his original brain down to each synapse in the original place. And the trillions of circuits (and million billion synapses) of the individual person would have to be exactly re-duplicated in the pre-death patterns. That has never been known to occur. One must postulate very special magic, and magic has yet to be proven to exist. The burden of proof that Jesus died and resurrected is on the person making that extraordinary claim. What is the proof that he died? And how can they explain the rewiring of the most complex computer ever known aside from magic.

    So a truly dead Jesus resurrecting would not be possible outside of the realm of fantastic magic and fantasy thinking. Believers would say nothing is impossible with the excuse...miracles (i.e. magic). But that is unprovable. Magic is a cop out when one cannot explain the impossible. It is trying to explain the impossible with the unknown.

    So either Jesus died end of story: OR he resurrected (awoke from shock-trauma coma), but not both. And we will never know. George Romero had not invented Zombies yet.:)

    Amergin
     
  3. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Wow! That was a long way to go! Funny, though!

    We have a sort of composite, mythological narrative about Jesus. His character gets a short act to play out, and tie up a host of disparate ethno-cultural themes. Then he gets whacked. In those days the hero didn't get to ride off into the sunset, he had to die in such a way that the details of his martyrdom became the vehicle for a movement. So the question isn't whether or not the story can be taken literally. Based on the incredible currency of his Mythos at the time, and it's enduring value, even from a minimalist perspective one is compelled to admit the likelihood of an historical character. But who, exactly, that character was is a question without the possibility of a clear answer given the extant historical material. We just don't know.

    Chris
     
  4. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    I think this sort of reasoning kind of misses the point of the issue. There are many God-myths were sacrifice and rebirth are key precepts, not least in agricultural dieties where the death and rebirth cycle reflect agricultural cycles over a year.

    It can hardly be viewed as an accident that Jesus is imbued with the same key symbols of this as other agricultural deities, not least bread and wine.

    In which case to ask whether Jesus really died would also be to ask whether Dionysios really died, who checked the Green Man's pulse, and was a qualified post-mortem carried out on Osiris?
     
  5. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Il Capo's Declaration of Civil Indebted-ness:

    I am the representative of God on earth!
    I am your transparent medium to the divine!

    Ooops, what? Ooh? Some one died and rose to meet God almighty in Heaven?
    This public display was enacted by a middle-east remformist Jew?
    The weight of the enmass-ingnorant un-washed masses has lost their unlimitedly vast past-life bad-karma?

    The first spiritual rule of Brahminical culture of Old India has reached the western Cities?:
    "You are not the material Body; you are spirit soul"

    This statement, "You are not the material Body; you are spirit soul" is the beginning of Yoga Practice; it is the means of Yoga Practice; it is the goal of Yoga Practice too.

    The individual soul is part and parcel of the "Source of Spirit".

    The word 'antropomorphism' comes after the Original Person (The transcendant personage of Godhead himself) ---later comes the application of the term 'antropomorphic' to name all possible forms & things devoid of animated-life-symtoms ---as alluded to the speaker/observer of things.

    The egg comes from a chicken! Whose chicken is it? What does the chicken seek, Godhead? A soul with a chickens' body is too accustomed to seek out lower stratums of pastimes ---ironically only we humans are imbued with sufficient conscousness to descern difinitively that 'Chickens are dumb beasts' ---yet Kali-yuga Humans rear themselves of chicken breast and cow pecks and wonder why our kids will grow up to go to yet another war just like our grandfathers' recipes dined.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    Attention all surviving fireman! The barbecue starts at noon!
    Don't get burnt or you wont get any meat!
     
  6. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain Well-Known Member

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    The idea that we are only spirits is not Christian. Bodily resurrection is strongly confirmed in the New Testament.
     
  7. Amergin

    Amergin Well-Known Member

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    Many Christians are enlightened and reject the superstition and magic in the Bible. However, many primitive Christians still believe that we are just biological organisms under the control of a magical spirit. They believe that our very thought is the action of the immaterial soul and not the material brain. Fundamentalists believe souls contain all of our memory and personalities despite lack of evidence for that claim.

    Bollocks! Body resurrection is not at all confirmed in the New Testament. It is claimed to happen by the New Testament without a shred of proof. Many things are claimed in the New Testament including the impregnation of a virgin human girl by an entity which is invisible and immaterial. Yet DNA is physical and visible. The New Testament does not claim that God has testicles and sperm cells with DNA. The writers of the NT were simply ignorant of biology and apparently ignorant that conception requires male sperm cells from an organism which has DNA.

    Without external DNA (immaculate conception), Jesus would get no Y chromosome, and therefore be a female.

    Jesus was supposed to be God. However, in the NT, he goes with Satan to a high hill. On that hill he and Satan can see all of the nations of the Earth. They both clearly believed the Earth was FLAT. They could not see the Andean Nation, the Mexican Culture, or the Anasazi. Not even Mount Everest would permit them to see the other side of the Global Earth.

    Jesus was God, but he believed Leprosy was due to sin and did not mention bacteria. He believed that psychotic disorders and convulsions and tonic-clonic seizures were demon possession. He believed that blind people could see with saliva rubbed in their eyes.

    I do not denigrate Jesus. He was well meaning if perhaps insane. His believes about the universe were that of Semitic people in the Middle East Iron Age.

    If one believes that Jesus was (is) God, how come Jesus claims to be subordinate to God. He came to do God's will. He is not good, only God is good. In fact Jesus indicates that he is not a god. So why do Christians make him God? He would have considered that blasphemy.

    Amergin
     
  8. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if anyone else here has read this:
    http://www.interfaith.org/articles/golgotha/
    on the main pages of this site. I read it while the forum was down. I am no theologian but I found it well argued and well informed.

    For my own part, even as a Christian I was never convinced of the whole redemption idea. It doesn't help me in my faith anyway. I am quite happy to think that Jesus was taken down and revived, but died somehow later, perhaps from long-term damage to internal organs. For me it's the teaching that counts. And that is much more radical than our mild-mannered churches would have one think.

    BTW I think healing does happen, not only in the time of Jesus but up to the present day. I knew someone who was healed. I knew someone else who miraculously survived. There are more things in heaven and earth etc...
     
  9. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain Well-Known Member

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    It is a common tactic of an unethical rhetor to pretend that his own position is normative when it is not and then proceed to smear anyone who does not hold that position.

    The norm for Christianity is that what you call "superstition and magic" is to be accepted, not rejected. It is likewise the norm that we are not merely dead bodies that happen to have a soul, but that soul and body are both important. It is normative to Christianity that the Resurrection will be bodily.


    "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you." Romans 8:11

    Looks like a normative doctrinal statement from me. I have not said that it was "proved". I said that it was standard Christian belief. Now, you can stamp your little feet and have a little temper tantrum all you want about how "It's wrong because it's not SCIENCE!!!!!", but that doesn't change the truth of what I specifically wrote.

    "I and the Father are one." John 10:39

    "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.'
    Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.'" John 14:6-9

    "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!' Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'" John 20:28-29


    "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matthew 28:18

    Have you actually read the basic scripture of a group that you are on a one-man keyboard crusade to extirpate? Or do you just mouth tenth-hand claims about Christianity?
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste Amerigin,

    a little FYI to start...

    Now that we got that out of the way...it appears you intend to not only denigrate Jesus but also his followers.

    Not that I have an issue with that...but lets have a little truth in advertising, please explain your motives and then we can discuss on an even playing field.

    For the purpose of full disclosore I consider myself a Christian, (others do not) I am a follower of my elder brother and wayshower..but also honor other traditions...and I believe much of the bible to be hyperbole for the purpose of remembering the story...and the story is what is important, not the exact history. It is the metaphor that is his life that can benefit us in this one.

    Namaste VC,

    Haven't read but appears I should....thanx.

    As we have four completely distinct and different stories of the day after at the tomb and the discovery of an empty tomb, why would we expect any of it to be more than stories? And why can't we happily benefit from the stories and live in the kingdom now?

    Choice is a wonderful thing.
     
  11. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    These Hill Song lyrics sum it up well enough

    And You lived
    You died
    You rose again on high
    You opened the way for the world to live again

    Hallelujah, for all You’ve done :)
     
  12. Amergin

    Amergin Well-Known Member

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    I had no intention to denigrate Jesus. I was wrong to call him insane. Actually if Jesus really lived, I would admire him. His teachings introduced a new morality. Of course the words were those of the gospel writers supposedly quoting Jesus. We will never know if they invented Jesus as a fictional character or Jesus really lived.

    Assuming that he lived and said what he said, I would have to admire him as one of the great men of history along with Buddha, Zarathustra (Zoroaster), Krishna, Muhammad, and Gandhi. None of them were gods.

    Jesus was great in moral teaching. I cannot judge him on scientific knowledge or modern geography. That is not fair. He was a Jewish Palestinian of the Iron Age whose knowledge base like other Jews was formulated by Semitic tribes in the Bronze Age or earlier.

    Jesus would naturally be a Jew. And he would have condemned those who tried to deify him (apotheosis) as blasphemers. For a Jew of early first century it was normal to think the world was flat and the centre of the universe. A few thousand Km north in Greece and Ionia, they had known for a couple centuries that the Earth was a sphere and measured the diameter with amazing accuracy. Greek philosophers recognized the amazing similarities of man to other animals and suggested several theories of evolution. Jesus knew what was known in the more primitive Semitic culture of the time.

    I find in Christianity a trend in the early centuries to denigrate Jesus by ignoring his humanity and his message to concentrate on the stepwise growth of the myth of his divinity. That made sin a trivial misdemeanor. His magical resurrection from death was an attempt to give people an excuse to believe in immortality.

    I apologise if my words in any way denigrated Jesus. Jesus was a man and not a god. That is common sense. He was a great man and his words influenced the world for 25% of all human beings. By making Jesus into a false Idol or God, Christians were able to ignore his teachings and focus on worshiping the Mythical Christ Idol. The human Jesus was much greater than that idol.

    Amergin
     
  13. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff Well-Known Member

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    Now THAT I agree with.
    However this is more difficult. Yes there is some New Testament text predicting graves opening etc, but ask your average churchgoer and IMHO you will not get very much support for the idea. People may well complain that the belief in an immortal soul and a mortal body is not biblical, but that is what I think most people believe.

    But I wouldn't want to blow this out of proportion. If a bodily resurrection is what gets you through the day I have no problem with that.
     
  14. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Let's avoid personal attacks on this thread, please.
     
  15. Peter

    Peter New Member

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    I have read an interesting information on Jesus from the book 'Sensei of Shambala', downloaded it from site schambala . org



     
  16. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain Well-Known Member

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    All this attempt to "naturalize" various elements of the New Testament are simply flat-out stupid. They MISS THE POINT.

    Attempts to make Christ "acceptable" on the basis of inventing "natural" explanations for everything are not worth making. If He is not God, if He was not born of a virgin through the Holy Spirit, and if He did not die and resurrect, there is no point to any of the rest of it. Just pitch it all out. The "supernatural" elements of Christ's story are not just removable details. Without them, there's no point to remembering Him at all. If you can't swallow the "supernatural" details, WHY ARE YOU BOTHERING?

    You are merely trying to construct a "social Christianity", that is not about much of anything at all. Go join the Oddfellows or some other charitable organization.
     
  17. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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    i believe that jesus probably existed and may have been a remarkable individual who might have been born for a very specific purpose- to embody truth. i'm not a christian. here's a quote i like: "jesus was a clever man, christians "could" learn alot from him"

    i'll state the rest as facts to save covering everything i say: he was never even put on a cross. the crucifixion to me represents the raising of the kundalinin, which usually lasted three days and usually occurs when a man is fully grown (27-32 years). at the end of 3 days having a much greater physical voltage, either more of his soul was able to inhabit his body or be a conduit for the fountain of truth that he experienced during this time. (resurrection)

    the three magi also appeared at this time (at the rebirth not at his original birth) and the star in the east represents the king of the world though i forget one of his namess (sanat kumar? in the eastern tradition)...so this is along the lines of the masters or i think they are also known as the great white brotherhood and include buddha. though i suspect they are beyond name, race and religion etc...the opening of the crown chakra on the top of the head is said to be horifically painfull and feel like a thousand needles- this is where the crown of thorns comes from.

    i believe krishna and was it osiris? were also depicted on the cross...

    take it or leave it :)
     
  18. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    I feel exactly the opposite. If Jesus was an actual human being, who lived here on this planet Earth, then the story is very important; but if all you mean by "Jesus" is this fairy-tale character who lived in the land of Oz, well there's no point to talking about that anymore.
     
  19. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Over the centuries I think there's been a good deal of controversy about the crucifixion of Jesus..

    To me it is more than likely that Jesus died on the cross.. between two malefactors..

    Roman executioners were practised at what they did and it is harldy likely they could be fooled..

    Saying that however does not mean that spiritually His Cause was ended.. A martyrdom often only puts at higher relief what was lived for and taught and what people are willing to give their lives for..

    Since according to the Gospels the body of Jesus was entrusted to Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus and these were "secret" disciples of Jesus it would appear they were unknown to the other better known disciples.

    It would seem that the body of Jesus might have been secreted to prevent further insult to His body.. and that His resting place was kept a secret for many years.. After the fall of Jerusalem much was destroyed and probably lost or forgotten.

    This happened in the case of the remains of the Bab after He was executed in Tabriz in 1850.. His remains were hidden for over forty years before being interred on Mount Carmel after 1899.
     
  20. Dragonseer

    Dragonseer Soul Searcher

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    There is a story that Jesus spent time elsewhere in the world after his disciples went forth to preach/teach the "good news"--and also during his "lost years." In fact, there is a story of an ancient text secreted in a Tibetan monestary that tells of Jesus' appearance in the region after his resurrection. And to this day, there are references in that region to St. Issa (the name by which Jesus was said to have been called there); thus, he made an indelible mark there, as well.

    The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa - Notovitch

    My theory? If a man recognizes and expresses his true divinity to the point of being able to resurrect the physical body--i.e., to prove once and for all that death does not truly exist--then I don't see why he couldn't have appeared in other areas of the world after his time in Jerusalem.
     

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