Did Jesus die on cross or survive near death?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Amergin, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    There's never been any confirmation of the reported texts that Notovich was told about.. or that he wrote about..no independent confirmation..

    Legends? Yes indeed from St, Joseph of Arimathea in Britain to Kashmir.
     
  2. Dragonseer

    Dragonseer Soul Searcher

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    According to various sources--including the website whose link I provided--at least two other people later copied/verified more than 200 lines of the text that Notovich had copied.

    I've read that the book in question disappeared shortly after the three individuals snuck a peek at it. (It's thought that the keepers of the monestary hid it away.) And if that's true, it would be a valid reason why no further confirmation of the book was ever offered. I'm just sayin'...

    Amen. :D
     
  3. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain Well-Known Member

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    No more important than the story of any other "good man", in that case, which means not important enough to pay specific attention to more than any other "good man" story.

    Why the superstition about desperately clinging to any flavor at all of Jesus, so long as it is stripped of "supernatural" elements? If the "supernatural" elements are such a stumbling block, why not just BE HONEST and abandon the whole package instead of dishonestly trying to rewrite it to suit personal prejudice?
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste DB,

    So you can accept other supernatural gods? Other texts? Other beliefs? Other non biblical supernatural happenings?

    The prophet Mohamed ok with you?

    I'm thinking not. And exacly what do the stories of Christianity have beyond them?

    I ask this as a follower of the teachings of Jesus...
     
  5. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    The supernatural elements are the dishonest rewriting, and trying to get back to what really happened is the opposite of "superstition". When I study the Buddha, I have no interest in the stories of how he walked and talked from the minute of his birth, and lotus blossoms sprang up out of the ground with every baby footstep: I understand why people make up that kind of thing, but it doesn't work for me at all, not plausible and not even interesting.
     
  6. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain Well-Known Member

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    You really don't get it, do you? WHY EVEN BOTHER? Why do you have this childish need to cling to Jesus, so obsessive that you will go through any and all convolutions to keep Him around, merely rewritten to suit your personal prejudices?

    Why not just dump the whole package?

    You're being fundamentally intellectually dishonest.
     
  7. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain Well-Known Member

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    Playing paper dolls with ANY scripture is fundamentally dishonest. Either take it as a package or reject it as a package. Don't be so juvenile and neurotic as to cling to some elements you like and pitch elements you don't. Put on the big boy pants and toss it all out as a package if you can't handle parts of it. Otherwise, one is being dishonest. One is saying "I am a Christian, except I make up my own stuff and don't believe what Christians usually believe."

    Salvation will NOT come merely from a set of moral sayings, and it is salvation that matters, not creating some kind of "perfect society" in this world.
     
  8. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I get that you think all the fluff about virgin births and vicarious sacrifices and whatnot is the important part of the story. You just don't get that to other people, that is not at all important.
    Why bother investigating the truth about anything?
    You don't have the slightest idea who you are talking to. I don't "cling" to Jesus: he's not particularly central to my world-view. Mainly, Jesus to me is a historically interesting field of study, since he was so influential.
    Much of what he had to say, or has been attributed to him, was valuable. That remains the case independently of whether all the things attributed to him were really said by him, and regardless of whether there is also a lot of rubbish associated with him.
    Projecting much?
     
  9. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    AMEN

    But I think this is asking some folks to go way too far. It means they have to THINK ... independently of what mother church has taught/allowed them.

    `Help Help! I don't see the *stamp* of approval yet!'
    `I can't tell what my friends want me to say!'

    ROFL, easy now bob x. Too much Truth is just ~ too BRIGHT for some folks.

    ~~

    imho, the Wheel keeps turning, and turning, and turning. Sometimes we're asked to focus on a set of 10 or 11 or 12 moral lessons, Myths/Labors, etc. which correspond with its *sides*

    other times we may only need to be aware of Seven, or maybe as few as Three

    Sometimes is it useful to be able to focus on only ONE. Sometimes it is also exceedingly difficult. But not nearly as difficult for those who may have KNOWN that One, and Who are then charged (as always) with attempting to help keep as much of that One alive (so to speak) in the modern world ... as possible, as the world will at present allow.

    So strange that we get lost in a past in which we ourselves do not even directly share, even forgetting the very reasons why that past matters to begin with.

    "To conquer death you only have to DIE" ~ even if in no way does this suggest MASTERY.

    Death is your greatest Friend in this world, which suggests to me that this may be one of the greatest ironies we can experience while undergoing human incarnation. [Knowing such, that is.] How beautiful a gift from this man that he should go to such great lengths to REMIND us of our Friend, and of what it means to have Right Relationship with this Friend of ours. I should think the least we could do in return is to have courtesy to thank him, to honor him, to honor his memory and message ... and ~ IF that message is supposedly sacred to us ~ then to seek to PRACTICE it.

    Sometimes, and *especially* in some cases, maybe that should be a PERSONAL matter?

    Oh I dunno. Just a thought.
    It goes well with "Please get whatever that is that you're trying to shove down my throat ... AWAY from my face." And hey, hey, I know something about precisely this kind of mentality! :eek:
     
  10. Dogbrain

    Dogbrain Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is or can be more dogmatic or narrow-minded than someone who considers himself "progressive" or "enlightened". Their very self-definition precludes a priori any possibility of self-examination.
     
  11. parampara

    parampara New Member

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    Internet is indeed great. It gives someone with so little common sense to have their voice heard all over the world. What did you actually read about all those personalities you listed to come to the conclusion you did?
     
  12. Amergin

    Amergin Well-Known Member

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    I understand the similarity of the various god-man saviour myths of death and rebirth. However there are very ignorant Evangelical Christians who fail to understand that the Jesus Myth is exactly that, a myth. They believe literally that a human being was fathered by a non-human, non-material Cosmic Father, intended for human sacrifice. They think he resurrect after real death with a totally rewired brain.

    That kind of delusional belief unchallenged by pseudoscience rubbish, without rational scepticism results in Fundamentalist Christianity or its Islamic equivalent, the Taliban.

    We should challenge Christians on the irrationality of the Jesus Christ myth. There are many reasons for doubting it. It would be fine to teach it along with the story of Buddha, Zarathustra, Lugh, Osiris, Jesus Christ, and ten others. Children should know that they are just made up stories not reality. Seeing it as reality leads to faulty growth of brain circuits with memes that defy reason.

    The tens of years of (fantasy) meme induction produces faulty thinking circuits.

    Fractured logic + impaired reason + uncritical analysis + leaky sceptical filter = faulty intuitive morality.

    It justifies killing, war, and genocide of those without the right imaginary god.

    The goal of my original post was to make people think and use the evolving reason of the growing human mind. Myths are harmful and act as meme viruses unless they are detoxified by some antidote of logical thinking and real science.

    Amergin
     
  13. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Yes but Amergin, I think you need to think beyond the box here a little. You know, outside the boundaries of your usual tack.

    I certainly agree that we are screwing our world up, a bit worse every day in plenty of respects, blaspheming merrily as we go ... since we do this "in Jesus' name" (I can imagine no worse way to dishonor this man).

    But I do not agree with some of your reasoning or conclusions.

    I find that the `Jesus myth' has been grafted onto the existing Jewish ideology emphasizing suffering and sacrifice, but that people really have no clue what any of this is about to begin with. You will probably disagree with MY reasoning, but you know, I'm just looking at the stars, and drawing my own conclusions. Sure, I borrow from the Wisdom and Insight of the Masters, the Seers and Sages, Judaism's own most revered Prophets and Messiahs ... yet the average Christian can understand their indications about as well as ... well, MUD.

    Does the smack in the forehead feel offensive to some? Okay then, PROVE ME WRONG. Prove that there are still THINKING Christians out there, and not just more ... SHEEP.

    Yes, Amergin, I do feel that it's about ~ SHEEP. You see, a few turns ago of the Zodiacal wheel, when the S~n was in, say, TAURUS, the world was a different place. Has the S~n been in Taurus before? Yes. He appears, as Promised, to His People (that's ALL OF US, folks ... a message which the Christians, like the Jews, have fundamentally misunderstood) in EVERY zodiacal sign. Each time, there is a new `twist.' There is a new message, which may key in on the message of the previous sign, and continue it, while also keying in on the UNIVERSAL significance of Taurus, or Aries, or Pisces ... yet which also reveals something NEW of God's relationship with Humanity, and how the latter can make a NEW APPROACH to her Parent (truly being BORN AGAIN).

    So umm, Taurus was ~ nothing new ~ yet it was *certainly* something none of us had ever experienced, something Humanity had not been through, on THIS turn of the proverbial spiral. {And that's just what the zodiac is, folks. It's a SPIRAL. A wheel is closed, and if twelve, or ten, or eleven or thirteen signs were simply REPEATED, over and over and over again, it might be a true `wheel.' But it's not. Each Major Cycle of ~26 thousand years bumps us forward, even if we blow ourselves into smithereens in the interim. When we finally reach that point where we formerly left off, we rise to even greater heights, with greater accomplishments, and ~ sometimes ~ gaining greater insights into our Nature and our Purpose here. And SOMEtimes we even do something about it, and choose to move forward ... although currently you have almost an entire religion ~ or more ~ which is doing a damn good job of impersonating a stick in the mud. A stick that is sinking ... and nobody can pull it out, except those who STUCK it there. And yeah, the priesthood/modern-day Sanhedrin has some SERIOUS Karma that's smashing them in the face these days, but ahh, that's for THEM to deal with, so ... back to the plot.}

    Taurus was the sign and the age into which the followers of Moses regressed. When the man came down from Mt. Sinai bringing with him instructions for the new dispensation, the people were all screwing sheep, worshipping Tammuz and whatnot. They had forsaken the PROMISED RAM, or LAMB of Aries ... and got stuck in the `old ways.' This does not mean that the S~n failed to enter into Aries. He tends to uhh, do that, every time that sign comes around again on the guitar. And, regardless as to what God's people choose, there is always a little bit of movement forward. It just sometimes occurs that NOT ALL of what is or was possible for Humanity (even for the `Faithful'), remains possible, or gets accomplished. THUS, when increasingly-Christed Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, He saw precisely what a great and difficult challenge lay ahead. He understood that our greatest potential, for PISCES (which the S~n entered about 255BC), could not and would not be reached *at least* until the dawn of the next zodiacal Era, Aquarius, some ~2000 years into the future. This, I should think, even for the Son of Man who is a Son of God, was cause for concern. Divine Patience is one thing, but knowing that something COULD have been accomplished, if only the right effort might have been applied, ah well ~ I think I can see how that would cause even the Christ to experience a degree of disappointment. The setback was/is something which has affected every single human Soul on the planet, for all of these 2000 years and more ... and we're STILL, not at all out of danger and experiencing clear sailing.

    The problem as I see it, is that the Christians really have no idea just how intricately connected all things are, from atom, to human, to God. Each relates to the other by matter of scale. One evolves into the other. Christ knew this; Christ taught this. So did every other Savior, Redeemer, Awakened and Enlightened One. Christ holds certain unique honors and responsibilities with relation to Humanity, and thus also to the Kingdoms beyond (the 5th Kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven, and the 6th, for which we have as yet no meaningful name ... as if we understand the 5th!). Christ is said to be the first of our own Humanity to have reached THE GOAL, while Buddha ~ strictly speaking ~ belongs to a former wave, or manvantara of evolution. No Teacher would deny this.

    Yet the Christians cannot see what fools they make of themselves. They try to claim a `unique revelation,' and become the laughing-stock. Instead of being able to see the beautiful, if intricate handiwork of the Creator, the ways in which the Universal Perfection has been mirrored here upon Earth, into every single atom, and into their very DNA ... they want to kick and scream and scratch and claw, and try to insist that God has promised THEM something. Something eternal, and an EASY WAY OUT, in response for a bit of lip service, and as reward for a FINITE ~ and relatively minor contribution.

    Man, nevermind trying to show that the handiwork of God, and the wonders that have been authored in each and EVERY sign, by each and EVERY one of Earth's hundreds, even thousands of (mostly forgotten) peoples, are worthy of study and admiration as we seek to know more about our origins and Destiny ... these are the same people who would gladly stand by and actually be OKAY if there were such garbage and nonsense as `eternal hells,' into which this LOVING GOD of theirs would supposedly cast the non-believers, while they remained safe and sound in their little delusions, thinking that eternal bliss was just around the next corner. Oh, don't let those sulfuric fumes and the burning flesh smell bother you, Jesus will make it all go away.

    No, Amergin, I do agree. No one but an idiot could entertain such nonsense. But I disagree that religion is ... the opiate of the masses. It is not delusion. It is not fantasy. And if you can look at the DNA spiral, or a redwood, or the Cat's Eye Nebula, or your own, amazing HAND ... and not have a recurring `AHA' which reminds you that we are ~ very, very tiny, but no less the Creation of an AMAZING and Loving Parent SOURCE [Itself, Parentless], then you haven't yet looked enough. Meditate more, persuade less. Trust me, it's a waste of time. The Jesus-freaks are going to remain that way for some time. Pisces, though we are now a full five decades into Aquarius, is yet too much with these people. They take much of their inspiration from the example of Jesus, and there is nothing wrong with that. On the contrary, they aspire to emulate [in their better moments] one of the greatest Souls Humanity has ever known. They understand very little of His sacrifice, and I won't claim to understand the rest of it. I do know that it is not about, certainly NOT mainly about being being willing to die for one's friends or students. If that were all it takes to be a God, Humanity would already be mostly Enlightened by now. But hey, simple logic and common sense escapes the sheep ... just as the notion of treading lightly sometimes escapes me.

    I just can't stand seeing so much bashing, if the message and motivation behind it is something like, `Religion is for the feeble-minded.'

    My point, then?

    I'm saying that the Myth is there, yes, and has ALWAYS been there. It is there, because it is Universal. And as Joseph Campbell has pointed out, there is a POWER in Myth. I would say, that it is probably the greatest Power we can currently understand ... or seek to understand. Because this is what DRIVES us, whether we are the "religious type" or not. As scientist, as philosopher, as artist or politician, people are still inspired by, and drawn to, the subjects and message of MYTH.

    If you must bash, and wish to make a case for the `Jesus Myth' being hogwash, at least please just say that it's all CRAP. Use the word, FICTION, rather than Myth. Because by choosing the word Myth, you have elevated the story one step closer to the LEGEND which it will one day ~ RIGHTLY ~ become.

    Some folks study the Labors of Hercules, and yes, they are LEGEND. Plenty of the Greek MYTHS are likewise, LEGEND, because we often recognize in them the Universal themes and Ideals (EIDOS/Eidolon/Ideals/Idealism) ... which are so important to our society and culture.

    Personally, I am for the John Lennon approach to religion. Organized religion, as most enlightened folks know, is pretty much responsible for the majority of evil on this planet. And this Heaven bug that has bitten the Bible-thumpers ... ah well, when they find out who their `Jesus' really is, and catch up with a lot of the rest of the planet, then YES!!! Much of the evil will stop.

    No more wars, and quite a bit less greed, torture, unnecessary suffering. etc.

    But myth is not a bad thing; it is just the opposite. Once we toss out the legends, fables and morality plays, all we might hope to learn from is ... science fiction and fantasy. Our technology threatens to destroy us, as the kids on the schoolyard keep playing "mine is bigger" with their nukes and Tesla coils. Meanwhile our planet is visited by dozens of Intelligent species from beyond the Solar System, and NONE can or will intervene to save us from ourselves. If we must go down in flames, all because, "Jesus said so," then fine ... let the Fundies face that karma in the next world, and next manvantara. Theirs will be a steep, steep penalty, and yeah, sure enough, they might get to TRULY be ~ SHEEP ~ again, if they don't watch it.

    The esoteric teaching I'm familiar with is that Jesus, like any of the Yogis you can meet on the street in India today, was quite able to suspend his bodily activity ... to such a degree that, having withdrawn his consciousness into the subtler vehicles, he was able to survive the ordeal of the cross. The ignorance of the modern Christian prevents his understanding why this was so important. He has been carefully taught to disregard the doctrine of rebirth, therefore he has no grasp on how rare it is for a being such as the Christ to be able to descend into human incarnation. He has no clue of what difficulty was involved in the TRUE Sacrifice of the Soul we know as Jesus, formerly Joshua, Son of Nun, who inherited the Mosaic lineage after Aaron, and also Jeshua from the time of Ezra. This Soul made a tremendous sacrifice to incarnate when, and where, and as he did. The overshadowing of this Soul by the Christ, for which Jesus spent a LIFETIME preparing (now THAT, folks, is a sacrifice) ... amounts to what we would consider a full incarnation. The 2nd Aspect of Godhead, did very much take direct, outer expression on our planet, just as the 3rd had done earlier, via the incarnation of Shakyamuni Buddha. This, at any rate, is one esoteric understanding of events. Further, in just a few years, we shall see the Reappearance of this same Individual (the `Christ,' under whatever guise or name a person/religion may know Him), and the 1st Aspect of Deity ~ WILL ~ be further Revealed.

    Thus far, I know of no one at Interfaith.org who has such a `take' on things, because ~ here and there you will find folks who are open to talk about the Zodiac, and Heavenly/Cosmic cycles ... or you may find a Theosophist or Anthroposophist who likes to discuss Steiner or Max Heindel ... but the very notion of one Soul overshadowing another (both being advanced Initiates) just seems too foreign to most. This, even though we can find plenty of explanation, detail and clarification in pretty much any set of sacred scriptures and teachings.

    Imagine how foolish some will feel once it finally dawns that ... their `Bible' has been updated, re-presented in modern terms and contemporary language, PLAIN ENGLISH, as well as dozens of other translations ... readily available now, in various *stages* or presentations (for various temperaments of students, and for different stages of the spiritual Path at which we may find ourselves) ~ for well over a century.

    Did Jesus survive the cross? Yes, or so says the esoteric record. He survived, and he became an Initiate of higher degree. That degree is called the Renunciation ... or Crucifixion, though the latter terminology is misleading. The tradition is that He taught for another 50 years in the subtle body. At this point, the physical was no longer needed, and because of outer events, it was no longer appropriate to use such, for most purposes. Besides, the Arhat can materialize a mayavirupa any time he needs one. There is no need for a permanent physical vehicle at certain stages of the Path.

    Is that difficult to comprehend? Only, I would say, when our `orientation' has been turned upside down, when our view of consciousness and spirituality is epiphenomenal at best, and when we have fundamentally misunderstood the relationship between the SOUL, the true Man, and the periodical vehicles [fourfold personality] which he inhabits. Materialism, like atheism, is a curse, and deadlier even than superstition. So the fate of the materialist, after death, is not a pretty one ... but a nice, long rest between lives is usually enough to give a good, fresh start, a true tabula rasa.

    Did Jesus need one of these, after the Renunciation (Crucifixion ordeal)? Not hardly. He, like all other Arhats, has not known ONE moment of what we call unconsciousness ... in over 2000 years, since that attainment. Pardon me, but, I think it takes BALLS to contemplate what that must be like, much less to set your feet upon the Path which leads to such. I remain confident that Jesus made such a choice ~ for your sake and for mine ~ and I'm QUITE sure that it does make a difference, no matter *what* you believe.

    Namaskar,
    ~Taijasi/andrew
     
  14. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    I am sure that there are plenty who are quite willing to think. They just don't appear on the "radar" that often.

    They're not interested in the things you're talking about. Even those of us who do have an interest in "thinking outside the box" are selective in what we explore and embrace. We put more priority on some concepts than others.

    You may have embraced all the colours of the rainbow, but the majority of the world's population do not have time for that. How much information do you think people can absorb? Even if there was vast amounts of valuable information and meaning on the concepts and paradigms you were talking about, people would have difficulty making sense of it because they have not been told why these concepts are so important. They have not lived your journey.

    People who dabble in religion are like radio receivers that tune into the air waves. Everybody starts off as a narrowband receiver. As they gain knowledge and experience the effective bandwidth they can detect and demodulate increases. Each tradition is a small part of the whole spectrum. Most people are only capable of narrowband reception. Religious and spiritual leaders target those small parts of the spectrum that most people monitor.

    The social and political phenomenon behind each tradition is like a filter that eliminates everything else we might find out there in the world of religion. Christians generally will not explore anything outside their allocated bandwidth. It is hard to explore something with which you are not familiar. If there is nobody to provide inspiration and motivation for the adventure into the unknowns of the world of religion, Christians will explore what other Christians have already explored. The fact that other Christians have explored a particular concept means that the same concept might be safe for you.

    Fear of Satan is what keeps a lot of Christians from venturing too far from the established ideas. Christians generally do what they see other Christians doing. You are right. They are like a bunch of sheep. There is a strong anti-intellectual culture in Christianity. It is dangerous to think too much.

    I can understand why people believe they should not think too much. Christianity arose out of a "love for humanity," so it would follow that being too intellectual would dehumanise what is supposed to be a "love for humanity."

    But this is one of my major gripes with the established thought system of Christianity. If you think too little you can be just as likely to dehumanise Christianity as if you set high intellectual standards for being Christian.

    If Christians generally do what they see other Christians saying, thinking and doing, this means that they are not doing much thinking. If the established thought system is a result of very little thinking then it means that the established ideology is very stagnant. If the system is stagnant and is the result of very little thinking then people are following generally low quality ideas because the probably of getting high quality ideas from very little thinking is very low.

    The established attitude that dominates the minds of most Christians is that because the ideas are of divine origin that very little extra thinking is required. They assume that they already possess the high quality ideas that would benefit themselves and the world socially, politically, economically, personally and emotionally.

    But if they are wrong that the already circulating ideas are high quality, then it means that they regard low quality ideas as high quality ideas. If you consider this attitude delusional, then as a Christian I have to agree. This is one of my major gripes with the established thought system of Christianity. It is that it refuses to explore ideas outside of the mainstream and this is what puts me outside the mainstream.

    While it is true that you can dehumanise the notion of a "love for humanity" by getting too intellectual, that one person thinking beyond the capacity of what is humanly possible (or probable) for others given the daily needs, obligations and expectations that most people must fulfill, to make people slaves of an established thought system that implicitly commands people to "simply follow" is just as dehumanising.

    The role of the intellectually minded is to guide those who would "simply follow." It is to fulfill the needs of others. The intellectually minded are not supposed to be intellectual for their own sake, but for the sake of others.

    The implicit requirement and command to "not think too much" is dehumanising because it disrupts one of the major functions of our human existence: to think and explore. God gave us a mind to think and reason. Thinking is like eating, drinking, breathing and sleeping. It is one of the natural processes of life. Christian spiritual leaders who tell us not to think are disrupting this natural process. It is like telling us to starve, to die of thirst, to stop breathing or not rest. This is what I call bad spirituality.
     
  15. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Saltmeister, thank you for such a thoughtful and meticulous response. You have not only carefully considered what I posted, but you provide a very level-headed triangulation. I think you make perfect sense!

    The metaphor of tuning in like a radio receiver, and needing to increase our narrow-band reception ~ over time, with experience ~ to become more broad-banded/minded, is an excellent one. I think it has application far beyond the religious or spiritual domain, and might be thought of with respect to intellectual ideas (and ideologies) in general.

    But the main idea that you're hitting on, that established belief systems need to be questioned, and re-questioned, and not just taken for granted or bought into (simply because they've become mainstream over the centuries), is Golden.

    In closing I'm going to post part of a photograph, taken by a close friend of mine some 30 years ago. This was a sign, hand-written below the Pepsi logo on a chalkboard, on a sidewalk ... perhaps in a small town here in North Carolina. I love the message. Apologies if I've veered slightly from lengthy and over-intellectual dialogue regarding what the heck happened to Jesus on the cross 2100 years ago.

    StrtNrrw.jpg
     

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