Psychic mediums don't believe in Hell?

Discussion in 'New Age' started by pghguy, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Z,

    It is fascinating to compare our two belief systems. The important thing is that everyone needs to have a belief system that works for him or her. Mine works for me, yours works for you, and that is a good thing.
     
  2. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    I agree of course nick, yet mine has changed drastically over the last few years thanks to good people like yourself, so my system is not particularly static. This is why I keep searching and hopefully expanding my vision, hopefully without disturbing others to much ~ even if I do challenge to the utmost degree [one has to yes?]. :)
     
  3. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Z,

    I am glad to hear that you are making 'adjustments' to your belief system. That shows that you have an open mind. Good for you!
     
  4. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    :)

    Every landscape has its own vocabulary
     
  5. woodsyroots

    woodsyroots New Member

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    Okay that would be interesting. thanks.
     
  6. Christian von Lähr

    Christian von Lähr Messenger

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    I should think Mediums would believe in Hell, if Christianity was their belief system. Christianity is one of so many Religions, that any and every possibility would be possible.

    Due to the track that Mediums are corralled down, though, this original poster and perhaps most people would relegate a Medium's spiritual views to Paganism, or in general, New Age Spirituality. I am a medium, Christian, and I follow the Theosophical philosophy. Christianity, in fact any dogmatic based religion would be far too limiting to my general knowledge, general experience and actual practical psychic/clairvoyant/mediumistic experience. I have found I can confirm much of what Theosophy would share, so its greater perspective on consciousness and realms of existence exceeds what can accurately be presented through religions.

    Hell, is absolutely NOT as it is portrayed in Christianity. "Hell", to the degree there can be so designated a realm that is distinguished from other supposed Higher realms based on a person's character and right living, (setting aside the concepts of Karma for the moment) certainly has its counterparts from a Theosophical perspective, and practical Mediumship ... but it would exist as gradients according to one's constitution, such that their character is exhibited primarily in that realm, by all. I would say it is better considered to be a "retardation," where one is aware of a blissful benefit that they are missing, and the longing to make [progress] is their suffering, for the opportunity is [considerably] harder to obtain than it would have been here in the Physical reality.
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    As Z posted — every landscape has its own vocabulary.

    I am aware that this is a 'New Age' thread, but just wanted to pop in from a Christian perspective. Most people with little or no understanding of Christian doctrine (especially traditional such as Roman, or that of the Patriarchates) often assume quite naive and medieval ideas about what Christians believe, with no real depth of understanding, and understandably so.

    As Christian has stated above: "Hell, is absolutely NOT as it is portrayed in Christianity." — and most probably he's referring to the common notion of hell — so for those of a metaphysical bent, I offer the following:

    The common Christian notion of hell — eternal torment at the hands of demons, nightmare landscapes, etc — owes more to the imaginations of the like of Hieronymus Bosch and Dante Alligheri than to Scripture per se, although the common medieval images of an infernal region has its counterpart in Buddhist iconography, and as such can be said to serve as a 'providential image' in the minds of mind, more inclined to a volitive than an intellectual disposition.

    The New Testament image of Gehenna, is a metaphor more to do with abandonment and exclusion, than with fire and torment.

    In traditional Christian metaphysics, only God is ultimately and ontologically real ... everything participates, by degree, in God, who is for all things the source and origin, sustainer of being, its good and its end.

    This participation can be seen vertically and horizontally. Vertically is to do with the approach to the Divine Principle as such, and is symbolically described, in Christianity in common with almost every tradition, as an ascent.

    The horizontal dimension is proximity to the principle as it manifests on any given plane or dimension of being, and this is encompassed in the variform 'tree of life' and 'temple' teachings among the spiritual traditions of the world.

    In the multiform material realm, for example, spiritual (vertical) realisation is inescapably entwined with a moral (horizontal) necessity.

    Sin in this context is a self-determined and freely chosen act of the will away from both the horizontal (moral) god and the vertical (spiritual) good towards an apparent, illusory, ephemeral and essentially self-serving 'good'. It is thus by definition contrary to the Divine Will, and as such has no ontological reality, no sustaining capability. Quite the reverse, sin is debilitating, and for this reason the propensity for sin is never diminished, never extinguished, never satiated, but only ever leads to a hunger for more.

    (The Buddhist tradition has a quite wonderful teaching on this point.)

    'Sin' as such is not a presence, but an absence, and hell, in like manner, signifies not an eschatalogical state, but the potentiality of a non-state, of non-being, of non-existence ... in effect, the soul, bound to sin, pours out its own being into nothing, and, drawing no sustenance in return, eventually expends itself entirely, to the point that it is no longer capable of existing as a cohesive entity, reflective of an individual and rational substantial nature.

    Hell therefore has no place, no state, no order in the realm of being, which would explain why it is obscure to the mind of the psychic — there is no reflection, no image, no presence — one no longer plays any part in being, cosmologically or metaphysically (hence the association with Gehenna, where the detritus of the city was discarded).

    In this context mystics have more to tell us than psychics, for example the renowned Julian of Norwich was famously granted a 'vision' of hell, and she saw that it was empty — not the metaphysical desolation of nothingness, a null state, but the witness to the boundless compassion and mercy of God.

    Two things need be remembered:
    1: The extinction of being is very much a possibility, in fact is a metaphysical necessity, if the notion of 'freedom' and 'justice' are to mean anything at all, and;
    2: The salvation of man, no matter how grevous the sin, is always open to those who seek it — and one wonders, in the face of the Ultimate Real, and utter extinction, who would deny it?

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Thomas,

    Your version and understanding of Catholocisim is night and day different from the Catholics in the US. Not all Catholics, not those that have gone on to get higher degrees or studied on their own, or spent time in the monastairies....but the lay Catholic, that goes and listens to sermons, does his pennance, believes his catechism...

    Hell is real to them, sin is real to them, fire and brimstone, and an anthropomorphic G!d. Metaphysics, metaphor, no... The hieararchy here believes people are not ready for that aspect of religion, they want it cut and dry, black and white, abortion bad, divorce, change your religion, can't get buried in the cemetary....

    Some day the Catholic Hierarchy has to wake up and start teaching from the pulpit what they teach in grad schools.
     
  9. Christian von Lähr

    Christian von Lähr Messenger

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    Will, ... in my opinion what Catholocism means to people in the U.S. is basically "regional." I've been all over and the tolerence levels and the exactitude of scriptures, the degrees of belief vary. I'm leaning towards Thomas' point of view, and acknowledge that yours is literally gospel in some places.
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Wil —
    Well, much the same could be said everywhere ... by degree.

    As a Euro, I find US Christianity (inc. Catholicism) as frightening as any other fundamentalism. The whole 'creationist' thing is a complete nonsense, and I think the 'rapture' thing is a reflection of the American psych ... but then the US did give us the archetype of the 'hellfire preacher' (Robert Mitchum, 'Night of the Hunter' ... Burt Lancaster did one too ... )

    Well hell is real to me, as is sin, but the point is that most don't relate to the metaphysical argument, hence the anthropomorphic imagery.

    I think there is a danger of missing something really significant, in that Christianity does not anthropomorphise God, but rather God comes to man in the highest aspect of that nature, the 'self' — that God manifests as a 'self' as we do is a grace and a mystery, and confers on the human his highest dignity, that of the 'divine likeness'.

    Sadly, they're probably right ... but don't forget that US Catholicism produced Thomas Merton, and some damn fine scholars.

    Well, Pope Benedict has lamented the level of homiletic teaching, but that's always been the case ...

    ... when I recovered my faith I went looking for a church that offered thought-provoking and theologically sound homilies, and used to travel miles on a Sunday ... and I have to say, as one who went through the Catholic secondary-school education, the level of Catholic teaching there was dreadful. Sometimes it's no wonder people walk away, as I did.

    And, as I have said before, it took a Buddhist to show me the light of my own tradition.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Agreed, but Thomas didsn't learn this is Sunday School, or Catholic School...they have to go on...and then decide to break the mold.

    Children should be taught metaphysics, taught deeper meanings, taught metaphor, taught Adam and Eve is a story and not historical fact.

    Yes the US has tons of issues on this, creationism is very popular, very scary.
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Don't think TM broke the mould, really? His spirituality was orthodox, as far as I know. I rather think he stretched his wings, but he's certainly 'within' the mould.

    Well, I would teach Adam and Eve as metaphysics ...

    The same problem we have with priests — there's not enough around. There's no perceived commercial value in teaching philosophy to children; my kids learnt 'comparative religion' at school, which means they know next to nothing about many religions, and nothing beyond ethics, really ... certainly not enough to make any informed decision about any one of them. But those decisions were made by secularists anyway, and their teachers are for the most part skeptics who don't understand religion, metaphysics, myth or metaphor anyway ... you're asking just too much.

    I'm trying to read Ricoeur at the moment. One volume on 'the meaning of metaphor' and three volumes on 'time and narrative'. Can't do more than a page at a time. Easy, it ain't!

    I agree with Christian — the frightening thing is Christian fundamentalism is US nationalism in another guise, filling the gaps made by the collapse of the facade of America as the 'global good guy'. The Rapture replaces 'The American Dream' ...

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I don't think we are asking too much. We are expecting to little and our kids are living upto our expectations.

    It is absolutely incredible what they can absorb and understand. We've got to quit teaching them what to think and teach them too think.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    It's really bad here, we have government inspectors checking on the schools all the time, so schools spend all their time making sure they can tick the boxes, most teachers complain all they're doing is teaching kids how to sit the exams that determine the school league tables.

    The government can't seem to let a month go by without some new scheme, directive, programme, target, benchmark. It's one of those situations where it seems the government thinks as long as it's in the media, dicking about with the school curriculum, then the country will assume they're doing some good.

    My daughters sat their end of high school exams to find a new curriculum had been introduced mid-year, which the schools were unaware of because the directive hadn't been published, but it had been sent to the exam boards, so the kids had little or no idea about half the questions on the exam paper ... it's that chaotic.

    On top of that, schools in affluent areas will always score high, and win more resources because they do so, whereas schools in run-down areas, with all the usual social problems to contend with, often work wonders with kids, but that kind of teaching is not looked for nor reflected in govt. statistics.

    I hated school. I performed miserably, was flogged regularly (that's a Catholic education for you), and couldn't wait to get out at 16.

    My mum tells it this way: In about my second or third week at school (age 4ish), I took a leaf up to the teacher and asked, "Hoe does this work?" And got told to sit down and be quiet.

    When she came to pick me up, she asked how my day had gone, and I filled her in on the leaf issue. "I'm not going back there again," I told her. Little did I know.

    My secondary years were so bad, there are trees along the road that I used to stand before and say: "when you're out of this, and pass this way again, remember this tree, and remember me, standing here ... "
    I go down that road now, and have to check every tree, and remember me, all those years ago.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    That is it in a nutshell.

    Teachers and Preachers should encourage a kid to ask questions, to explore.

    In school if we can't look something up when we are taking a test....in life that is exactly what we do. Or we call an associate who knows more than us on the subject.

    In school if you and your mate copy off each other they call it cheating, in the real world we call that teamwork and collaboration.

    We should encourage the traits that you need in society, the open mind, the questioning mind, the creative mind, the Huck Finns.
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    What has any of this to do with the topic of this thread?

    It's obvious, isn't it ... if you enjoyed your school years, you probably don't believe in hell. If you didn't enjoy your school years, you believe in hell, because you've been there.

    I've been there ... Wil's seen it, if he hasn't been there too ... what's the problem?

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  17. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Perhaps, Thomas, you would share a few words about avichi. A Buddhist or Eastern concept, it most closely approximates the more sophisticated presentation of a Christian concept of `hell' that you've shared ... than what most Christians I know believe in. If you need a reference, use this:

    Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary: Ato-Az, Theosophical University Press

    As an esotericist, or as a person with that background, I can say with utmost confidence that this is what Jesus of Nazareth experienced at one point during His ordeal upon the cross. It is said to be one of the most difficult experiences along the Path, and for obvious enough reasons. Regarding this specific occurrence (in the life of Jesus), one Teacher says the following:
    What I will say now is very important. The canon, "By thy God," is the higher, and this canon is the basis of the New World. Formerly one said: "And my spirit rejoiceth in God, my Savior." Now you will say: "And my spirit rejoiceth in God, thy savior."
    Solemnly do I say that therein is salvation. "Long live thy God!" So you will say to everyone; and, exchanging Gods, you will walk to the One.
    There where one might otherwise sink one can tread softly, if without negation. There where one could suffocate one can pass, by pronouncing "Thy God." There where matter is revered one can pass only by elevating the earthly matter into the Cosmos. Essentially, one should not have any attachment to Earth.
    Why is there a legend about the descent of Christ into hell? The Teacher addressed the lower strata of the astral world, saying: "Why, by cherishing earthly thoughts, bind oneself eternally to Earth?" And many revolted in spirit and rose higher.
    Thus, find the God of each one and exalt Him. One can understand it in mind, but it is more important that it be accepted in the smile of the spirit. When the most difficult becomes easy, like the flight of birds, then the stones themselves unite into a Dome, and Christ the Mason will appear to each one.
    It is unquestionable that our attachments prolong our suffering on the astral plane. This is what the Purgatory is for (this being a word to describe the nature of the afterlife experience within the astral world). One must literally be purged of those character traits [appertaining to the personality, rather than the Soul] which make it impossible to withstand the Heavenly radiance. This is one level of meaning for the expression: "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

    There are some psychic mediums, I'm sure, who are less experienced metaphysically, or less familiar intellectually with the true state of things than others. They may maintain all sorts of pet beliefs, or misinterpretations, when it comes to the astral plane and afterlife. Far better to have a firm foothold, gained through meditation, Service and study ... than the curse of a too loose anchoring in the etheric and physical body.

    The vices, as we call them, including sensuality and over-indulgence of all sorts, are the surest way to create for ourselves a miserable experience in the subtle world. It may be unlikely that most of us will attain to complete detachment and equipoise during our threescore and ten; but it would be prudent, even if our time remaining here is known to be a matter of hours, to see about getting ourselves ready. Where a tradition lacks this, or where its followers are too frozen by apprehension and uncertainty to take advantage of services available, additional work is created for those on the other side ... who must greet, console and often present a crash course to the new arrivals.

    The idea of suffering in an eternal hell, just as the corruption of Christ's teachings regarding the nature of God's Kingdoms, is a blasphemy. Those who perpetuate such misunderstandings carry a heavy karma indeed. Better to think of chirping birds and endless rolling fields of flowers, for at least then there is a positive attitude and the expectation of something pleasant. The Truth can be grasped more easily with such leavening.

    How lamentable that we can hear from countless numbers, of all different walks of life and leanings, including the Highest as well as the most humble, yet still so fundamentally misunderstand the nature, purpose and character of the next stage of our human experience! I deem the contribution of the Theosophists 100 years ago and more to be among some of the greatest guides for those who have any serious interest in learning about what happens next.

    For example: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21080/21080-h/21080-h.htm
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Thomas I'd agree, hell is of our creation and here on earth.
    Here I disagree. In the states anyway, hell is propagated from the pulpit and the preachers, from Religous school teachers... Hell is used as a stick, if you aren't good you'll go to hell, burn forever. It is a sickness that indicates they have very little teaching ability to rely on fantasy for discipline (and corporal punishment as well) "what you recieve as punishment in this world is nothing compared to what you will receive in the next"....

    Hell is beaten into us, brow beaten and physically.


    This weekend I was at a retreat with our church youth. One mother related how her child stayed at a friends house for a while and went to their church....this falls under the category of 'kids say the darndest things' After coming home she told her mom. "Mom, you need to go to their church and tell them about G!d. All they know about is the devil" And as the kid obviously piped up a little the other childs parents asked her about what she thought of hell, "Well we don't believe in hell, but we are taught to respect your hell"


    (and good to see you around Andrew!)
     
  19. Christian von Lähr

    Christian von Lähr Messenger

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    Good timing for the concept of Avichi, Andrew. It meshes well with all the concepts already presented. Don't believe in condesending towards Mediums across the board, though ... but would agree with the reproach for many, if not most. It tends to make Theosophy to much the [religion] when used this way, and quite frankly, a medium can readily have knowing, provable, repeatable experiences and proofs not normally available to man.
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Andrew —

    Thanks for that, it's not a term I'm familiar with, but I'll happily offer a view from the reference you've thoughtfully supplied.

    Well it would depend on how one interprets 'places of evil realisations', which I realise is open to semantic interpretation, so I'm not so much contending these views, as offering from my own perspective.

    First something on the nature of evil. Evil is defined by St Thomas Aquinas (De malo, 2:2) as a privation of form or order or due measure. In the physical realm a 'thing' is good in proportion as it possesses being. God alone is essentially being (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58).

    God alone is Absolute; God alone is Good (Luke 18:19). Everything else possesses limited being, and in so far as it possesses being, it is good. Evil then implies a deficiency, hence it cannot exist in God who is not deficient of being in any sense, nor can it be ascribed to God in a moral sense, as God cannot will what He does not will, thus to imply God wills evil is a contradiction, and God, being One, Absolute, Simple, cannot suffer contradiction. God can allow evil, according to His justice and mercy, but that does not mean He wills it according to His own being and nature.

    Only a being endowed with a rational nature can will evil, that is only a creature who can know God can act, in the knowledge of God, in deliberate opposition to the Divine Will. As God is not good but the Good, and it is in the nature of the Good to communicate itself (according to Plato, and we see no reason to deny it), then an evil act, a sin, is wilfully and knowingly not only contrary to God, but contrary to the good of the acting agent, contrary to the good of those acted upon.

    In short sin, and evil, is an offence against God, oneself, and one's neighbour.

    I drag this out because 'a place of evil realisation' must necessarily be punitive; but it is not a punishment inflericted by God, rather it is self-inflicted, and this is how 'the wages of sin' should be perceived in a properly Christian sense. As Wil says, and I agree, "we are not punished for our sins but by them". As Jesus says to the sinner: "Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more" (John 8:11), the subtext being 'you're only hurting yourself ...'

    In that context I would say that 'a place of evil realisation' is no more ontologically real than evil itself ... if it exists its a 'place of not-being' (self-contradictory, I know), or 'nowhere', or perhaps 'nothingness' ...

    +++

    Christian metaphysics starts from the one, absolute, divine principle, and locates everything else in a direct relation to that — that is fundamentally what Christianity is all about — a union that is expressed in Scripture in terms of both a filial and nuptial relationship, that is in metaphors in which no closer union can be conceived.

    So in Catholic metaphysics evil has no 'place' nor 'being' as such, and this is signified by Our Lord's reference to Gehenna. A useful idea is 'the phantom zone' of the DC Superman comics. Once exiled to the zone, the prisoner plays no further part in existence or creation. So Gehenna should not be conceived as a place, nor even a state, but a non-place, or no-state.

    So I would say if any place of 'evil realisation' exists, it's purely in the mind, and has no actualisation outside of it ... here introduces the idea of being 'trapped in oneself' and this can only lead to extinction, as the individual human self is not a self-sustaining entity.

    The 'wages of sin' is that is that all that is not real 'dissolves', or perhaps better 'evaporates', that is, is seen for what it is, it is seen through (as in seeing through a deception), and in the seeing through, the sin ceases to exist as something, but rather an absence (of good). The 'problem' for the person is that, having invested oneself in the sin, as the sin evaporates, so does the being of the person. So we agree on the point of final extinction, but not sure about 'expansion' — sin cannot become more in the eschaton, but less. I can agree 'expansion' by dissipation, perhaps it's just a matter of semantic language?

    I would liken it to standing before a light that illuminates what is real, and does not illuminate, in fact evaporates, what is false.

    Here is where we differ. We refer to and go straight to the principle. The fundamental reality of Christianity is the union between the person and God, with no intermediate states. Having said that, some identify degrees within that Union, "But he that received the seed upon good ground, is he that heareth the word, and understandeth, and beareth fruit, and yieldeth the one an hundredfold, and another sixty, and another thirty" Matthew 13:23 — so one might talk of a 30%, a 60% or a 100% union ... this the Fathers likened to proximity to the throne in the City of God. Some are right next to the throne, some at a distance, some further away ... but all will be where they should be ... then again, this is in Matthew/Mark, but not in Luke, John nor Paul.

    So, on reflection, I suppose I could agree if one accepts that the degrees and grades are just shades of the one reality.

    We would disagree with this ... there are no states of the 'not-good', the 'not-true' — a lie has no substance because it is fundamentally false. Again, maybe semantics.

    Therethere is death, and there is the judgement, and the result of the judgement is either acceptance or denial of the True and the Real, there is either life, in union with the True and the Real, or there is extinction, because there is nothing else to be, if the true, the real, is rejected.

    Again, it depends on one's definition of 'nature'. If cosmological, then I can agree ... but then Christianity is not a cosmological but metacosmic.

    In nature we see shades of grey — darkly, as in a mirror — there, we are in the pure light of what is. There are no shades of grey, no spheres or states of unreality, of untruth. There things either are, or are not: "We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2) ... if we are not like Him, and He is Life, then we are not 'life' in any eschatalogical sense.

    I can agree with this. Extinction is absolute, but is it immediate? What is time in the eschaton? The soul registers time, so we may presume something, but not quite time as we experience it now. A whole other discussion, perhaps.

    I don't think I agree ... in the sense that extinction is not a state ... but is this referencing time again? One would have to define location if one means other than a spatiotemporal one?

    I tend to think Christian metaphysics has moved beyond this kind of language ... heaven is 'above' and hell 'below' only in an analogical sense. Is this implying there are actual places in relation to? I doubt it ... I assume its talking about mutability of nature. Anyway, I think I've covered enough above so don't need to respond here in detail.

    We don't do reincarnation, if this is what the text is inferring ... I find the idea bleak and somewhat hopeless.

    Here we would say the same as everything ... the judgement is an interview with Christ, as it were, the fire that refines, that heals, the solves ... no doubt a subjectively 'painful' experience, the realisation of the degree of one's error, or the degree of refusal to love and be loved ... but the point is that 'flash of divine nature' is the Logos by and in whom all things subsist, that sense in the soul of the creature of its vocation.

    I find what follows from this point lacking in metaphysical rigour ...

    +++

    Without doubt ... Jesus endured Gehenna on the Cross; He became the dispossessed of the whole world, abandoned by all; the Romans didn't want Him, and tried to offload Him onto the Jews; the Jews tried to offload Him onto the Romans, the mob — no doubt many who sang hosanna on His entry into Jerusalem — now turned and traded Him for Barabas; His executioners diced for His clothes; His followers fled ... just His mother and John, and the women, at a distance — he tasted the bitter dregs of that primordial human fear — that I count for nothing — not for nothing do we call it The Passion, the Via Dolorosa.

    Well a number of reasons. One: That the Cross is an Act written in time, from outside time, in that respect it is retro-active in time. The Harrowing of Hell symbolises the fact that Christ's victory over death includes all ... from Adam on ...
    ... another, my own interpretation, is that Christ is the Logos, "For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. And he is before all, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:16-17). The way I read it, Christ permeated every corner of Creation, and took back what was His ... no stone was left unturned, no soul left abandoned ... but then I'm a sucker for a love story ...
    ... but read the hymn of Colossians — there is catholic metaphysics in a nutshell.

    I tend to treat the matter as one of interest, but as you say, psychics are notoriously unsure, and half the time seem to have no idea themselves what they are about, and no doubt they are earth-bound. I tend to read the mystics, there you're on safe ground, and higher ground.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     

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