We are all G!ds.

Discussion in 'Theology' started by wil, Oct 28, 2010.

  1. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Did I ever suggest that we inherently divine by nature, Thomas? No! I never even implied such a thing -- You are projecting your own biases into my thoughts. I suggested that we are gods (elohiym) great, mighty, rulers, etc.

    -- I whole heartedly agree


    Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
    Psa 82:7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince."
    Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!

    I don't see sarcasm, but rather a statement of fact -- You are gods (elohiym) but you will die like men, which is the result of the fall when we pursued evil over life --

    You think? I rather thought it was more about selfish ambition than pride, but it's probably a bit of both.


    No! You think that I think that we are inherently divine, Thomas -- You are projecting your biases into my thoughts, and not hearing what I'm suggesting. I repeat (Again) we are gods in that we are mighty, powerful and have the ability to destroy life by further defying God, or to sustain life by surrender to God.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely -- I'd suggest that the churches power over the holy writ has a great deal to do with the corrupt dogma they feed to the masses -- It's kool aid, only on a much larger scale --


    My point is that the church cannot be trusted with he things of God (Obviously) Something you claim otherwise --

    Ahh yes -- The blessed Trinity which if it is denied one is immediately labeled a heretic.

    God the Father
    God the Son
    God the Holy Spirit

    &

    God the Godhead -- What's that? Four gods, Thomas?

    As if the church has some authority over them now. Please! The church has authority over your dogma, but not over the inspired word of God, given to all men; not just the RCC who has used them to further their own bloody agendas.

    I'm far from being infallible, but I do question, seek, think, and attempt to understand things to the best of my ability -- I question myself often, which is why I often find myself progressing when it comes to faith issues. Stagnate waters are a breeding ground for all kinds of filth.

    Good! That's means I'm not alone ...


    GK
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    OK ... but I am suggesting that is the wrong way to think of ourselves, if we following the Christian Tradition ... Our Lord Himself does not set Himself up as 'great, mighty, ruler' but shepherd.

    And look at the Psalm in context:
    "I have said: You are gods and all of you the sons of the most High.
    But you like men shall die: and shall fall like one of the princes."
    The second verse is because man has been found wanting.

    In fact, in reference to these gods, the Lord says:
    "How long will you judge unjustly: and accept the persons of the wicked?
    Judge for the needy and fatherless: do justice to the humble and the poor.
    Rescue the poor; and deliver the needy out of the hand of the sinner.
    They have not known nor understood:
    they walk on in darkness:
    all the foundations of the earth shall be moved."

    So it would seem that The Lord is not impressed.

    So, reading the Psalm, if we are gods, I'd keep quite about it, because we stand condemned for our pride and bombast, and for failing to act like real humans, let alone false gods.

    And looking at the New Testament, consider the Beatitudes — those who think themselves 'great, mighty, rulers' etc, are, according to Scripture, unlikely to enter paradise, for "Blessed are the poor ... blessed are the meek ..."

    Again, Christ speaks to his accusers:
    "Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken; Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. They sought therefore to take him; and he escaped out of their hands." Luke 10:34-39

    I suggest Jesus is using that text to claim His divinity, because he performs miracles, forgives sin, etc., (believe the works) ... but it is pointed in that He is also saying His accusers act like gods (judges, as per the reference to the Psalm) but do not act as God acts ... therefore a double hypocrisy.

    So I would suggest anyone who makes anything of the text 'we are gods' is likely to find himself facing Christ to explain his hypocrisy.

    Only if one calls oneself a Christian. You have to call yourself a Christian first — Buddhists and Brahmins aren't heretics. So yes, if you call yourself a Christian, and deny the teaching opf Christ, then obviously ...

    Nope, three, and the Godhead is a collective — a lesser term than Trinity.

    See, this is the point I'm making ... you misunderstand even basic concepts.

    Rubbish. The inspired word of God was given to the Apostles, who passed it on to their successors, not to all men ... Christ told His apostles to preach to the world, not that anyone can preach whatever they like in His name ... in the same way that Christ gave His authority to the Church founded on Peter ... so even Scripture refutes this argument.

    well leave the RCC out, if we offend you so much. The Orthodox Churches of Russia and Greece will tell you the same thing (in less charitable terms, by the way), so will the Oriental Orthodox Church, so will the Lutheran, Anglican and post-Reformation congregations ... in fact apart from the proliferation of 'do your own thing' denominations in the US in the last couple of hundred years, I don't know anyone who would endorse your exegesis ... that should say something to you, but I doubt it will.

    OK. But who else promotes this doctrine apart from you and Wil?

    Sadly, no, you're not ... there are many who regard their opinions as superior to 2,000 years of the teachings of the Doctors, Saints and Mystics.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Know thyself

    The Christian act of gnosis derives from the Semitic act of gnosis (daath, yada 'to know'), the experience of God as Lord (Kurios) and so comes to us as obligation, according to our dignity as His creature.

    The knowledge of God's goodness imposes on us the obligation to act in like manner towards creation. This is inherent in Hebrew Scripture, and was voiced by Christ as the two fundamental commandments of God, 'Love God, and love they neighbour‚ founded on the unspoken revelation, 'as God loves you'.

    Christian gnosis is not a body a knowledge, but an embodied faith which brings forth fruit from its deeds. It is a knowledge that, when embodied, produces a likeness in the creature and makes us like what we know; it deifies us by making us deiform.

    The Greek concept reverses this process, making likeness a necessary condition of knowledge, and knowledge a necessary condition of right action. True gnosis allows the perpetual dhikr of Philo, of St Paul and of Ibn 'Arabi. Christian gnosis is a progressive knowledge by epectasy, the going to meet God who is ever coming to meet us, a pilgrimage on the endless road, the via eterna.

    The knowledge of God is a continuous creation, that renders us new in every moment, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by the breath of God that turns us from physical to spiritual beings — a new creation (cf 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15).

    It is not a platonic nor gnostic escape from the condition of time and place and createdness. The heart of the mind, the apex mentis, knows that the future becomes present in the very instant of the present, which in that same instant is annihilated into past; that the zero-time of the eternal and eternally moving moment between future and past can be found God, giving himself continuously, He alone who is and who alone can say 'I am'.

    We, who receive our being from Him (cf Acts 17:28), can only say 'I become', but already what we are is history ...

    +++

    'We are advancing perpetually towards God only because he advances towards us.' (St Basil).

    This knowledge of self, by the circumcision of heart, that leads to the knowledge of God has only a passing affinity with the Delphic maxim know thyself gnothi sauton, recorded by Xenophon (430-350) in the dialogue of Socrates (469-399) with Euthydemus, the meaning of which was taken as: 'know you are not a god' or 'know your ignorance, that is wisdom', or 'know you are not immortal'.

    This maxim was later attributed variously to Solon (c. 600), Thales (c. 585) and Chilon (c. 556), contemporaries of Jeremiah: "all shall know me, for all shall be taught by me when I write the new testament on the heart of their mind" (31.33) and Ezechiel: "I will put a new spirit within them, a new heart not of stone but of flesh" (11.19) and Second Isaiah: "all shall be taught by the Lord" (59.13).

    This is the knowledge no longer written by ourselves on the heart of our mind but unveiled and found, through circumcision of that heart, to be written there in spirit by God so that all might, by the coming of the Spirit, as Moses, Joel and Peter proclaim, be prophets and prophetesses: "And it shall come to pass, in the last days, (saith the Lord,) I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2.17). Gnosis is knowledge of God as revealing Himself to us in Scripture written with letters through prophets only because already written in spirit on the prophets' circumcised hearts, where its meaning, unveiled and rediscovered, is not just that we are not a god, but that we are made according to God's image and likeness.

    If we have to seek God within ourselves, then the call is that all unlikeness be cut away. The root pit for prayer in Hebrew, cognate with the Arabic for sharp point or edge, and generally taken as 'to judge oneself' might well refer, not to the pagan rite of 'cutting the flesh', but to the circumcision of heart, the sacrifice of a pure heart, the word of God being a (sacrificial) two-edged knife penetrating between soul and spirit (cf Hebrews 4.12).

    Philo of Alexandria (c20BC-50AD) "On Dreams, that they are God-sent" speaks of this process from Biblical reference, discussing with our need, like Abraham, to start from Charran, "Charran then, as it appears to me, is a sort of metropolis of the outward sense" (1:viii). In Charran we pursue physical knowledge; the knowledge of the sensible world, before we can make sense of the mind and the soul. Such a disposition
    In "The Life of Moses" Gregory of Nyssa (333-395?) founded a theology of epectasy (as would Ibn 'Arabi), on abrahamic self-knowledge: Leaving what senses perceive and what the intellect sees he enters into the invisible and unknowable (apex mentis) and there sees God... by seeing that he is invisible... the more mind advances inward the more it sees that the divine nature is invisible... the darkness in which Moses sees God is true gnosis, that the gnosis of God transcends all gnosis... what mind attains is never the living and life-giving God, for the mind God is ever beyond, ever inaccessible, to epignosis. (Christ called His disciples by saying 'follow me' and tells the Christian that he too must take up his cross and 'follow me' (a phrase used in all four Gospels).

    St Ambrose (340-397)
    To know oneself is to recognise the divine image and likeness in oneself (e.g. Sermo 2.13-14 on ps 118 PL 15.1214; Lib de Isaac 4.11-16 PL 14.509)

    Evagrius of Pontus (345-399)
    Do you wish to know God? Learn first to know yourself (cited in 1954 Early Fathers from the Philokalia p. 109 from a Russian collection of his miscellaneous sayings).

    Augustine (354-430)
    For mind (apex mentis) to find itself mind must cut off all that mind has added to itself for it is not only more interior than objects outside itself but more interior than its images of objects...the instant that mind understands what it means when it tells itself to know itself it knows itself because it is present to itself (De Trin 10.8-9). O God ever the same let me know myself, let me know you: 'noverim me noverim te' (Soliloques).

    In Chapter 10 of The Confessions he returns to this again and again:
    What I know of myself I know through your light shining in me (Quod de me scio, te mihi lucente scio (5)7);
    Into my mind shines that which space cannot contain and what is tasted there cannot be diminished by eating (6)8;
    Your God is to you the life of your life (6)10;
    By my mind itself I ascend to God (6)11;
    I mount toward you ever above me (17)26;
    My body lives by my soul, my soul lives by you (21)29;
    You are not mind itself because you are the Lord God of the mind (25)36;
    Where did I find you that I might learn you but in you above me (26)37.

    S. Nilus (360-430)
    When you know yourself you are able to know God (Ep 3.314).

    Isaac the Syrian of Nineveh (5007-595)
    Two knowledges are received from without: the natural (what the senses perceive) and the spiritual (concerned with what the spirit receives) but the third knowledge is manifest in mind's inmost depths, for the kingdom is within; its coming cannot be observed for the kingdom comes without observation: it reveals itself by itself without thoughts, further in than any image imprinted on the hidden mind (cited in Early Fathers from the Philokalia pl96).

    Pope Gregory I (540-604)
    The mind... rising to knowledge of itself... prepares a path to contemplate the substance of eternity and extends itself to itself by climbing which it enters into itself and from itself tends (in epectasy) to its maker (Morals 5.61-62).

    John-Paul II
    Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth. (Fides et Ratio).

    +++

    From an essay by Dom Sylvester Houédard (1924-1992)

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  4. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Yet he was great (As are we). The difference isn't in the knowing, but in whether or not we humble ourselves, and surrender to God. You act as if because I am aware of who I am that I defy God because I have that knowledge.

    Quite the contrary is true, Thomas -- It is because I know who I am (In part) that I surrender myself to God. Nothing good can come of me attempting to rule and control, but surrender to God despite being able to rule over others is an opportunity to be a vessel for Him, a vessel of life and light, as opposed to being a vessel of death and darkness.

    To know thyself? Just by knowing who I Am, I Am aware that it is my selfish and carnal self that stands in defiance to God, thus I realize the need (Necessity) to surrender myself to Him and His love. Otherwise I will be destroyed by my own device and never know the life I could have had if I had only surrendered myself to Him.

    It is our reality, Thomas --

    The power of life and death is in our hands. We are the mighty ones, the most dominant of God's creations on earth. He allowed us to fall, so we might rise again (As demonstrated by Jesus) unto more glory than you could possibly imagine. The end is not yet come, the eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.[FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    The tree of knowledge of good and evil was our awakening to our own destructive characteristics and power. In order to know "who" we are, it was necessary that we realize "what" we are capable of. We have the power of life, which comes by service to God and His love. We also have the power of death, which comes when we attempt to "rule" the earth and other living beings.


    GK
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh, that's easy to say ... whether you can humble yourself and surrender to the Tradition that speaks the word, or think yourself better than you fellow man, is another matter.

    D'you think all Catholics think the Catholic Church is blameless? D'you think even popes don't rue the tragic events of history?

    True humility is accepting that man is fallible ... and getting on with it, knowing that, there but for the grace of God, go I.

    But you haven't ... your surrender is all on your terms.

    "Without me," Christ said, "you can do nothing."

    I suggest you put your mind aside for the moment, and try to pun on the mind of Christ (cf 1 Corinthians 2:16) ... you bang on about how powerful and mighty you are. I listen to Christ.

    "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Matthew 16:24
    You don't deny yourself, Gatekeeper, you keep on about how powerful and mighty you are, about how you are a 'god', about the power of life and death is in your hands ...

    ... you're more enamoured of power than you are of love, that's why you don't sound like a Christian.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    You see ... you measure the greatness of Christ by comparison to yourself ...
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Find your greatness Thomas...it is there.

    You seem to not be shy about your ability to exhibit your greatness in your responses to various posters.

    Does not every Christian measure their greatness against the Christ? Or do some of them think themselves greater?
     
  8. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    You mean bow before the almighty church, right? I'll serve and surrender to God, Thomas. Surely you don't think I think myself to be better than my fellow man, do you? I have a God given mind to search matters out for myself. I don't try to control others, nor do I desire to be told how to think. It doesn't make me better, just a bit more independent.

    As do I --


    Please explain what my terms are, then Thomas -- You act as if you know something about me you do not. I could just as well suggest that your surrender is on RCC terms and to the RCC as opposed to God -- Does the fact that I suggest this make it true? Probably not! The same is true for your accusation, Thomas --

    Yes we are part of a greater vine --
    I merely know 'who' we are, Thomas -- We are who we are -- Deny it all you like, but it doesn't change 'who' we are. I too listen to Christ, but I also know what we (Mankind) are capable of.
    This is what denying oneself is all about Thomas -- Not denying the knowlegde, but denying that part in us that is destructive, harmful, etc.
    False accusations again? I know what we are capable and it leads to no good end, as I have mentioned several times already - Surrender to God and Gods love is our only hope. I know who i am, just as I know I must surrender to God.


    GK
     
  9. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Christ IS who we should aspire to be like, no? He set the example, and we follow --
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Only in Him.

    I speak from great treasury that is Tradition, not from myself. Thats' the difference between us.

    No, you're the one who's argued that you are potentially greater ...

    It's you guys who always seem to regard Christ as something in reference to yourselves.

    When I was a member of an pseudoHermetic cult, the big man used to say 'get out of the way, and let God get on with it' (there's a drive-by saying for you) — you guys seem incapable of doing that, but rather it's important that everyone realise that it's because of you that God is as great as He is ... I never hear mention of the Holy Spirit, without whom, we are and we can do nothing ...

    You may disagree with me, but then, why talk about yourselves so much?

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    our traditions differ...that is all.
    that would be Jesus that said that....
    that would be Paul that asks us to put on the mind of Christ
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Well not quite ... every claim to Christianity is its own tradition, the question is which is authentic and which isn't.

    Yes, of the Holy Spirit. You read it as talking of yourself — you've challenged me on just this point before.

    By putting off your own mind ... by being buried in him, as Paul says ... but you use Christ to promote yourself. It seems that for you 'the mind of Christ' is some psychodynamic 'improved performance extra' way of thinking.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    ]Well not quite ... every claim to Christianity is its own tradition, the question is which is authentic and which isn't.
    [/QUOTE]
    Ah the old I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong debate...

    That always is helpful.
     
  14. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Why all the speculation without quoting the source?

    IMO, just quote the source, rather than introducing volumes of tangents; Matt 6:9-13 or Luke 11:2-4,

    "Our Father in heaven,hallowed be your name.Your kingdom come,your will be done,on earth as it is in heaven.Give us this day our daily bread,and forgive us our debts,as we also have forgiven our debtors.And lead us not into temptation,but deliver us from evil."

    Or as I learnt it as a lad:

    Our Father, who art in heaven
    hallowed be thy Name,
    thy kingdom come,
    thy will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
    Give us this day our daily bread
    And forgive us our trespasses,
    as we forgive those
    who trespass against us.
    And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from evil.
    For thine is the kingdom,
    and the power, and the glory,
    for ever and ever.
    Amen.
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I already made that arguement...

    Jesus didn't say my father.....he said our father....that includes us....
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    As a self-declared nontheist, why are you even arguing the point?

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Well someone's got to be right ... you're of the 'I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong' camp, or are you "I know what Christianity is better than the Tradition in which it arose" brigade?

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    The sonship in God was established in Israel:
    "I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk ye in all the way that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you" Jeremiah 7:23.

    It was a sonship established in the Law, sonship by adoption, as the Scripture says.

    In Christ this takes on a new meaning, this is His prayer at the Last Supper:
    "And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are." John 17:11

    "That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." 17:21

    "And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one" 17:22

    "I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me." 17:23

    Sonship now shifts beyond the Law, it is now reciprocal gift, and the realisation of that gift is in the relationship between Father and Son — the Son takes all humanity to Himself, and offers Himself to the Father, speaking on our behalf as advocate and mediator, as Paraclete (cf John 14:16)

    "But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me."

    These texts set up the basis for the proper and authentically Christian understanding of sonship, it is adoption in the first instance because Christ has come to fulfil the Law, and it is incorporation into Christ, who is ever before us, and it is through Christ that we aspire to the Father, and it is through the Holy Spirit that we aspire to Christ.

    Only through the intercession of these three can we participate in the Divine Life, in the Father who wills it of us, the Son who manifests it to us, and the Holy Spirit who perfects it in us.

    God the Father of the lips of Jeremiah presents the condition of this covenant: "walk ye in all the way that I have commanded you" and God the Son is the way: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me" John 14:6, God the Holy Spirit empowers us to walk the way: "but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba" (Romans 8:15), "And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father" Galatians 4:6.

    So we do not cry Abba, the Spirit does, because we cannot know God, but the Spirit of God is God, and when we are in the Son, the Spirit dwells in us.

    So we are not gods, but we can participate in God, when we are in the Holy Trinity.

    And without God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, we can do nothing, we as are nothing, we are as dust:

    "But if thou turnest away thy face, they shall be troubled: thou shalt take away their breath, and they shall fail, and shall return to their dust" Psalms 103:29.

    "And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it" Ecclesiastes 12:7

    "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return"
    Genesis 3:19

    Only His love, and only His Being, makes us something — it is through His indwelling that we may dwell with Him forever.

    +++

    Christianity is not defined by cherry-picking Scripture.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  19. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Take it from this man who just did precisely that, twelve times, to be exact, in his post.

    "Christianity is not defined by cherry-picking Scripture."

    Yep, I'll agree with that. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Let me explain ... by cherry-picking I mean selecting 'delicacies' from the text, and ignoring the content and the whole.

    One can hardly accuse me of that.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     

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