Sexuality and Religion

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Zenda71, Jul 23, 2004.

  1. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    49
    Oh my goodness Grey I wasn't talking about converting faith, just about finding the way to say I am a woman and I want to be a woman. I had been taught for so long that being a 'girly' was a weakness. I finally saw, yes due to my converting faith, that I had boxed myself into a corner and all I had to do was lift the lid and say here I am, a pink fluffy girly. I was 40 when I finally let go of my Thatcherite "women are strong and should have it all" nonsense. It wasn't easy and even now I have control issues. My best friend used to go mad because I would never let her drive us anywhere, I was a total control freak and scared to let anyone take control of any aspect of my life. How liberating it was when I realised that I could say, yeah you drive, I'll enjoy the scenery.

    So forget about faith in this issue, just accept that life is easier when there are two of you to share the burden and yes sometimes it is liberating to let another person take control, even if that just means letting your best friend drive. It's sort of the opposite of the burn your bra campaign. :D
     
  2. Impqueen

    Impqueen Queen of the Imps

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you were doing it for yourself. You enjoyed the admiration. I would say that when I dress nicely (partly at least) I am doing it because I enjoy it for the same reasons you did. It's nice to be admired. But that pleasure in being admired is mine, so I am doing it for me.

    The part that troubles me is the competing bit, I feel myself doing it occasionally and try to avoid it. :mad:

    I can see how the hijab is freeing though, mind you, I'm not about to give it a 6 month trial :). The thing is, my friends (male and female) all prioritise mind and heart over looks, otherwise they wouldn't be my friends. So if they admire me aesthetically, when I turn up to a party in pretty clothes, that's the cherry on the cake. Unnecessary, but pleasant.

    I would agree with Salty that the clothes I wear are an expression of myself, of who I would like to be etc. Sometimes who I want to be is a sexy beeatch :p but most of the time I want to be a happy hippy chick.

    It is very nice to be looked after by a man. But I look after him too, and not just because I make our meals. Like Pathless said, if he's got a problem we talk it through. I really don't think men should be toughing it out in front of their women, that just leads to a situation where the man never takes his masks off. Partnerships are about mutual support. Like Pathless I think cutting ourselves off from sources of love outside the main partnership can be negative. I rather admire people who can handle polygamy and open relationships. I know it's not something I could do though.
     
  3. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    49
    Yes I take your point ImpQueen, perhaps I have just reprioritised what I really need in my life or who I feel I really am?

    Hmm, not so easy to avoid though is it. Perhaps it goes back to our cave days, the 'survival of our genes' instinct? Perhaps we need at a base level to be the most attractive female so we get the strongest male as a mate?


    Hee, hee, didn't think you would somehow lol. :p

    I feel sure you and your friends are not so shallow but you must admit it does abound these days. I think it is also important we realise that we often hold views we are not even aware of, until they are challenged. So we may genuinely believe we do not judge people by their looks but we do all have in built prejudices. I try to take everyone as I find them but my brain cannot help stereotyping people sometimes (shell suits are a great example).

    You certainly sound like a happy hippy chick. I am not knocking it in any way, everyone to their own. I just want people to accept that it is my choice to dress as I do and I am a happy hijab chick. :D

    I agree completely and is something I have been trying to teach my husband, as he was brought up to believe in very static male/female roles. It took him a long time to realise he could discuss his worries with his wife, not rush off to find a male to talk with. But I like our watered down male/female roles, they suit us and it has allowed me to become 'female'. For me, I have now found a happy medium between my western 'strong, must have it all' female and the Arabic 'weak, pathetic woman' role. Oh aren't I lucky I have it both ways now. :D:D

    I cannot say I admire people who can handle polygamy as my brain just freaks at the very idea (other than in very dire circumstances). I have read a considerable amount about the issue of polygamy in Islam (there are whole books about this one issue) and find that the issue is thoroughly addressed, yet I have never once read a scholars opinion that discusses the emotional feelings of the first wife. They always talk about the emotional and sexual needs of the man and of the woman that cannot find a husband but never address the issue of the first wife feeling somehow not enough. I always end up screaming at the screen "what about the first wife". However, if people choose this lifestyle and all parties are happy then go for it, just as long as you don't want me to join in the party.
     
  4. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
    and

    Ah, we are back to talking about sexuality. ;) Polygamy?? Yikes and wowzers! I don't think that many people can handle polygamy. Too sticky. :p:D First off, it should not ever be about meeting one partner's needs, but should be a mutually desired adventure that a couple (or trio or whatever, but for the sake of tradition and to not totally blow our minds, let's assume couple) goes on together.

    What if in the future, when humanity matures a bit on the gender/sexual relationship scale, couples who are deeply in love (and maybe a bit on the edgy side of sexual exploration), decide to spice up their love life by inviting another couple or another individual into their bedroom? This is not polygamy, I guess, but more like "swinging." But I think experiments in swinging or trios are often lacking in love.

    I firmly believe that no one should have sex without love. For most people, one committed loving relationship is all they desire and can handle. Yet what if...? two couples who are good friends decide to take their relationship(s) to a taboo level? Somehow I feel like couples inviting other couples to share in love-making is less threatening for those involved than a couple inviting a single individual. For two couples together, there would already be a strong bond of love within each couple and a bond of love between the couples.

    Of course I think this is a dangerous idea and could only be successful when attempted by radically honest people who are open to discussing their emotions and feelings for each other at all stages of this affair. There is always the danger of infidelity in the sense that a third couple will be formed out of the original two! :eek: Yikes!! That wouldn't be good for anyone. Radical honesty and openness to the process would be key ingredients.
     
  5. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi Pathless

    Obviously for my mind that would then be adultery and a big no-no.

    I could only accept polygamy (and I have given this much thought) if there was a dire need, ie following a war, where many women and children would be left without support and not enough men to provide for families. My view would change in the west but in Egypt with no social security system, I could see a need under these circumstances. However, for me, this would have to be a non sexual relationship and simply a marriage in order to provide for the woman and her children. The day my huby stayed overnight would be the day I got a divorce and a flight back to UK.
     
  6. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think polygamy to be so contrary to western cultural conditioning that it would destroy almost any relationship. Of course there would be rare exceptions, the swingers sites are busy, but my feeling is participant couples would not remain couples for long after following that track. It is just too alien to our emotional needs and security. Maybe one partner could handle it, but rarely two.
    I have come across an exception in my own experience where a medical issue caused a couple to seek a third party:cool:, even then the situation was very alien and a lot of emotional repression was evident.
    But there are cultures where monogamy is not the norm and they all seem to cope. We get ever more self-centred in the west and I cannot see it but remaining a fringe activity. Sex addicts are always looking for a new high and I think such practices are more or less confined to such people.

    Tao
     
  7. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Mw. How would it be adultery if it was consensual on all sides?
     
  8. Impqueen

    Impqueen Queen of the Imps

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think polygamy as in a man who has many wives has obvious sex equality issues. Polygamy as a relationship consisting of more than two people, all of whom are happy with the situation, is fine. To my mind the important thing is that all who are involved are happy with it. I think for that to happen everyone involved needs to have healthy self-esteem and no security issues, they also probably need to be understanding and calm. People with all those attributes are quite rare! :)

    To be able to love unselfishly and unpossessively is an admirable thing for me. I know I'm incapable of it. Most people are probably incapable of it and experimenting with it could be very damaging for a couple indeed. So I can see why it's frowned on by many religions; for the majority of people it could endanger the relationship and thus the stability of the child rearing environment (as this is what most religions seem to see a marriage as being). However I feel completely banning something because it's a bad idea for most people is rather unfair on the few who can carry it off.
     
  9. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, Impy, for the engaging response! I agree with you and believe that healthy and loving polyamorous relationships would be very rare and only possible among a group of committed, highly self-actualized and respectful people, and even then would be difficult all around.

    I've been reading Caroline Myss's Anatomy of the Spirit and found a germane passage on sexuality that I'd like to share:

    Besides creating life, sex is an avenue of self-expression, a means of making a statement about our comfort in relating physically to the world around us. Sexuality connects us to our own bodies and physical needs as well as to our potential for exploring our erotic and sensual aspects. Sexual eroticism is a form of physical and emotional liberation as well as of spiritual liberation. Why spiritual? Erotic pleasure is, by nature, "in the moment," an encounter in which we drop most of our physical boundaries in order to enjoy the full measure of human contact. Explored without shame, erotic energy can elevate the human body and spirit into sensations of ecstacy, at times producing altered states of consciousness.

    --Anatomy of the Spirit, pgs 142-143
    Sexual expression without shame is somewhat rare in our society. The earliest messages we get about sex are full of innuendos, taboos, hush-hush, stoney silences, embarassment, and negative thou-shalt-not commandments. The sexually curious child has very few resources presented to hir; (s)he often explores alone, in the dark, and then risks shaming about masturbation or promiscuity. Traditionally, ours is a very sex-negative culture. Sex is often seen as a means to an end (to produce children) or reserved for marriage. Ah, the legacy of our puritanical forepeople (speaking as an American)!

    Of course the traditional take on sexuality has been challenged by the counterculture, artists, and literati for as long as it has been prevalent. From Walt Whitman to Alan Ginsberg to Susie Bright and Carol Queen, the challenges to establishment sexuality just keep-a-comin' (pun intended :p ), and we have made some great strides as a society in our acceptance or at least tolerance of homosexuality. Yet I feel we are still like scared children and closeted puritanical adults in the face of the awesomeness of the variety of human sexual experience, and many are awash in unchallenged cultural conditioning.

    I think that if we are committed to personal and spiritual growth, we have to at least be open to exploring sexuality and allowing some wiggle room with it in our own lives. ;) Both spirituality and sexuality are too often seen as static, unchanging. Yet to be alive and fully human, we must recognize and cooperate with the fact that every day we are changing beings! For me, a day without a new idea or a challenged perception has become rather boring--and a state of stagnancy.

    I wonder about our sexuality on a societal level as well. It's my opinion that, regarding sexuality and sexual self-expression, our civilized societies are still walking around with their panties in a wad over the most liberating and powerful human experiences (sex, drugs, and... rock and roll? :cool: :D ). I wonder if we were able to let go and enjoy--and let others let go and enjoy without feeling threatened morally, personally, or culturally--would we be bitch-slapping each other as much with bombs n poverty n stuff?

    As a side-note (for further research for the curious, perhaps), anyone familiar with Wilhem Reich and "orgone energy"?

    Wilhelm Reich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Wilhelm Reich Museum - Biography
     
  10. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Pathless,

    " As a side-note (for further research for the curious, perhaps), anyone familiar with Wilhem Reich and "orgone energy"?

    Did he invent the orgasmatron too? :rolleyes:

    Tao
     
  11. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    49
    It's just how my brain is wired, you said 'loving couples' so my brain filled in the married part, sorry. Of course any sex outside marriage, even with permission, is by definition adultery.
     
  12. Impqueen

    Impqueen Queen of the Imps

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    0
    I always thought of adultery as unfaithfulness to one's spouse. :confused: Now I find I'm an adulterer.... you learn something new ... :p

    Pathless - great post. Anatomy of the Spirit sounds interesting. Shame certainly seems to be heavily intertwined through our experience of sex. I think if we weren't ashamed of sex there would be no need for pornography. Erotic art might still exist, but the cheap crassness of porn would seem foolish if sexuality were experienced without shame.
     
  13. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi ImpQueen

    No that is right, it is unfaithfulness to ones spouce, as I said I filled in the married part in my head as that is how I see a 'loving couple'. So the great news is you are not an adulteress, just a 'fornicatress'. :p;):D
     
  14. Impqueen

    Impqueen Queen of the Imps

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fornicatress? Cool..... :p
     
  15. dauer

    dauer Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    That sounds like a superheroine.

    Fornicatress and her sidekick HarlotGirl.

    I wonder what her super powers would be.
     
  16. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have an idea... ;)

    What would the male version be, I wonder? :D
     
  17. dauer

    dauer Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    In Dimension XY Fornicatress and HarlotGirl are male, and superman is a bad guy (Lex Luthor's a hero.)

    Fornicatress is simply known as Fornicato. HalotGirl is called Lord Albert (he speaks the queen's english and wears a funny hat.)

    Instead of visiting the dreams of adolescents and fighting off the robotic minions of Chastitor as they do in dimension XX, in dimension XY they do battle with the cold-hearted Frigidaire and are often found lounging poolside at the homes of bored housewives. Occasionally they'll team up with the JLA when a major force threatens Earth-XY (In Crisis of Intimate Births they appeared in one frame only, on page 37, along with an assortment of other heroes from Earth-XY e.g. The Android Machismotor and Couch Potato.)

    In issue #69 of The Stupendous Fornicatress (her second run. Her first was during the silver age of comics as a grittier version of Wonder Woman), KY Comics broke the comic code by tackling the real-world issue of corrupt government. It's now a highly sought after collector's item.
     
  18. Impqueen

    Impqueen Queen of the Imps

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rofl.....
     
  19. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    No end to your talents Dauer !! You are indeed an adept and cunning linguist!!:)
     
  20. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    49
    Tao, what is about the naughty spot you like so much? :p
     

Share This Page