Assignment: "Freewill" (Pro/Con)

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Gatekeeper, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    If we are not striving to become, then what are we to strive for? Perfect is a concept, but a desire to become more perfect than what we are, the desire to overcome our shortcoming, etc. helps us grow, and learn from our misguided deeds, and further develop as a collective body, no?

    We are what we are, but perfect we are not -- Not that we will ever reach absolute perfection (If there is such a thing), but we can strive to "become" better, more loving, and more compassionate people. Surely you are not suggesting that such a desire is delusional and dangerous?

    On one hand you say we are perfect, then on the other you say that perfect is a no thing and that the ideal is a delusion. We CAN become more perfect, better, and more compassionate, but if we think that we already are, then what progress can be made by us?


    GK
     
  2. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    OK, then it comes down to choosing wholesome actions over unwholesome actions then? {"whole" pun intended!}
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Because you chose to do it ... God didn't choose you to do it, or choose it to be done by you.

    Well take it up a bit ... God created the Cosmos, and in so doing determined all that was possible within it. Now, whatever you might choose to do, nothing you can choose will lie outside the created possibility of the Cosmos ... so it's not a case of God having to know your every thought and action from one nanosecond to the next, it's rather the case of God knows what is possible and what isn't.

    Or look at it this way: anything you do, and anything you can do, is already written in your human nature — there's nothing you can do that adds to human nature, and there's no skill that man's developed that wasn't already there ... the ability to ride a bicycle was established, as a law, in the very first instant of the big bang, along with every other law ...

    So if you understood human nature well enough, you would be able to predict, with staggering accuracy, what anybody would do in any given situation.

    And if you were conscious of all time at once, then you would know.

    That's my point, because the computer can predict, does that mean we do not have free will?

    Some might say no, else the computer would not be able to predict, but that assumes an infinite number of possibilities. There are not an infinite number of solutions to every opportunity ... and, the less mindful we are, the more likely we are to make more predictable choices.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  4. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    GK,

    I appreciate your confusion and perhaps consternation. I have spent a long time drinking tea and it is hard to share if you already have a mug full of coffee. Can the poetic assist where logic struggles? - see the fan anecdote of Master Baoche...

    s.
     
  5. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    Short question, short answer. Yes.:)

    s.
     
  6. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Sometimes you have to quit striving, and just be, or do something spontaneous. If you are always striving, and not observing, then you are sure to miss your mark when it comes. ;)
     
  7. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    Thank you. A very good response; but if all that you say is true, why is it not possible to get a plumber at the weekend?:p

    s.
     
  8. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Live, Love, and Laugh! You'll get no argument from me when it comes to spontaneity, and just being, seattelgal. Even so, I do desire love -- To be loved and to love others. It is a basic need after all, just as it is pleasant to the soul. ;)
     
  9. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Poetics are great, but when they are paradoxical in nature, I have to question the logic. Perfect is a no thing, yet we are perfect as we are? Does that make us nothing, then? My view of perfect is humanity being complete or made whole in love, or is love a no thing, too?

    :eek:


    GK


    [youtube]Kc8hzb0daK8[/youtube]​
     
  10. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Just some additional thoughts

    God exists but I don't think he rejects or accepts us because of our chosen religion's or lack of religion, but because we fail to honor the path of life. By neglecting love, we in effect neglect him and we do so much to the detriment to our world. Some 2000 years ago a man named Jesus inspired humanity to seek the kingdom. He taught us what it would take to achieve paradise on earth.

    His sacrifice solidified his passion, and it is because of his sacrifice that many of us have come to realize the importance of his vision. He was willing to die teaching us how to bring the kingdom to fruition. He assured us of an abundant life if we would only walk the same path he followed. Indeed, we are living in a potential paradise … One that is up to mankind to realize as a collective body.


    • I believe that Jesus showed mankind what it would take to realize paradise. He taught us to love one another, and to serve the needs of our fellow man. He taught us to become good stewards, and caretakers.


    • I believe it is up to us (mankind) to usher in this new world. Jesus being one who not only labored for this end, but who also gave his life in hope that we might realize his vision of a better world.


    • I believe that Jesus ultimately represents mankind. The difference between Jesus and many of us is in how he chose to live, and what he chose to honor.


    • I believe that Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life. Not him alone, but rather every man and woman who would follow the “path of life”.


    • I believe that love is the path of life.


    • I believe that love is something each individual must discover and experience for themselves, and as each person grows in love, the more they will be able to live through this life giving spirit.


    • I believe paradise can be achieved by following this path of life, allowing love to be our guiding light, and by serving the needs of our fellow man.


    • I believe that it is absolutely imperative that we labor for the kingdom in the here and now, that it is time for humanity to realize our responsibility to future generations and to do all we can to create paradise on earth.


    GK
     
  11. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    Logic is not to explain the poetic; the poetic was offered as an alternative perspective. However, I think I am only further muddying your waters GK so perhaps you should just ignore me :eek: :)

    s.
     
  12. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    Nah, I know where I stand -- I just don't understand the poetic language you are using.

    No muddy waters, Snoopy -- ;) I can see clearly now


    GK
     
  13. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Resume the position of the Captain of a ship. You are tired, and want to go home. You have been at sea for months (as has been your crew). You get a teletype "proceed to blankety blank degrees and blankety blank degrees, and stand by"...

    YOU CAN DENY the ORDERS, as the CAPTAIN of the BOAT. That is YOUR RIGHT as CAPTAIN.

    Is there a price to pay? Most certainly. Do you still have the right? Most certainly.

    So what is the question here? Do we have "Free will" here, or do we have a will that is payed for with a price?

    Answer: All decisions are paid for with a price. That is what being free is all about...willing to pay the price...

    There is no other way around it.

    Q
     
  14. bob x

    bob x New Member

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    Re: Just some additional thoughts

    In the absence of freewill, I am not sure what is the point. Either you are predestined to follow the path, or you are predestined not to; you have no choice about it, so what is the point in "showing" anything?
    Did he have some freedom to choose?
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Quite, but in Scripture harmartia is meant in the sense of 1d and 1e above.

    Harmartia in the philosophical sense is generally attributed to Aristotle, in Poetics. Scholars still argue its meaning, as 'missing', as 'error' or as 'offence'.

    OK, but the issue is responsibility. To make a wilful choice, one must be free, must one not? Another question, whether one acts wilfully, or without thinking, doesn't really alter the matter. Either way, one is responsible for one's actions.

    If one is coerced, one can act against one's will, and not be held responsible for one's actions.

    Technically, yes ... but 'I didn't mean it' doesn't always cut the mustard, as they say. Ignorance of the law is no defence in law. But there is a distinction between sin as an act which knowingly harms another, and sin as an act with unforseen consequences. Often people don't consider the consequences (or avoid that issue) so it's a huge 'grey area' ...

    ... 'grey area' is utterly the wrong term. It's the area of human relations, there's nothing grey about it at all, it's most colourful, it's where all the colour is ... we'll have to think of a better term. Perhaps, 'it's a rainbow of consequences'?

    In Scripture God laments the unintentional sin, it's the intentional ones that really annoy Him.

    No, or rather yes, but that's the mild stuff. That's nothing.
    The other sin is the knowing that my actions will inflict suffering upon another. That's the meat of the matter, as it were.

    No, because we know better. You can't murder someone, then shrug and say 'nobody's perfect'?

    I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I am asking where you draw the line. At what point you say 'I didn't know' or 'I can't help it' is not an acceptable excuse?

    The target for God, yes, but moral fault exists in secular systems also. I think it's possible for atheists to be 'good' by any human measure; for humanists to be good by the same degree, 'I've met humanists who'd make better Catholics than some Catholics I know' argument.

    I'm sure there are atheists and humanists in paradise ...

    Scripture is not about being good, Scripture is about a union with God, and what is required to attain to that union.

    That we should experience the most intimate union with the Divine, a union such that only filial or nuptial metaphors come anywhere near to expressing it.

    OK.

    I see it differently. I think the world is by nature finite, contingent and therefore imperfect. Only God is perfect, infinite, absolute ... I think the message of God is that He is hear, now, with us in this world, if we listen, and if we do as He wills.

    Will that mean no more tsunamis, no more Aids, a cure for cancer and the common cold, no more Downs Syndrome? No, I don't think it does ...

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  16. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    But would you want to be working on one of the airport desks?

    "Look I know this is Ryanair, but I'm a Muslim so why have I ended up in Tusita Heaven and my luggage is in Purgatory??"

    s.
     
  17. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    I think it's all the same, actually -- Miss the mark and it is counted as an offense against God and His will for mankind. Our sins amount to misguided deeds, no?
    Yes, we are free to do what we want, and as you say -- We are responsible for our actions.


    I agree -- lots of colorful consequences

    How do you know? What if our sins whether intentional or unintentional produce the same consequence (Death)?


    It all leads to the same result, no?

    No, I'm not trying to weasel out of responsibility, I'm merely suggesting that our actions (Every action) has a prior cause or determinate. We are still held responsible for what we do -- To me it's all just common sense, a broken rule a consequence.

    I think love is the deciding factor --


    Being whole like Jesus was whole? I think we are in union with God when we allow His Love to fill us, and guide our actions.


    Kinda like a marriage, right? Love being the binding aspect to that marriage.

    The world yes! Existence no! Existence is perfectly complete, but we as humans are incomplete without God's guidance or without Gods love.

    All in Good time -- All things will settle in time --


    God Bless,


    GK
     
  18. bob x

    bob x New Member

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    All the luggage goes to Limbo.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Purgatory is having to wear the same pair of socks and pants for four days running ...
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Not according to Scripture, no. It depends whether one misses the mark through ignorance, or not. Jesus was quite emphatic about that.

    Because one is murder, and one isn't.

    No.

    That's a contradiction, as I exist, so I am complete, but I am human, so I am incomplete? Which one is it?

    God Bless,

    Thomas
     

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