Who is God?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Gatekeeper, Mar 31, 2011.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    This really depends on how you define the divine.

    In an Abrahamic context, God is not the 'inner me'. God is not the core of my being, because that being is created and contingent, and God is neither of those two conditional states.

    God is immanently present to the self, not an inhering quality of the self.

    Quite, but this 'excess' stripped away is the notion of the self, which has never been stronger than it is today, where the very thing that needs stripping away is the very thing that is exalted.

    The trick is to listen. When someone says 'the god within' then you know we're not talking the Deity of either the Abrahamic nor the Western Philosophical Tradition. We're talking personal psychism — how can something so fragile, transient and contingent be God? Or 'contain' God? Is God parcelled out piecemeal throughout creation?

    When someone says as 'within God' then hopefully you're on the right track.

    It's a matter of carts and horses.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  2. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Thomas; I guess I forgot I was in the Abrahamic room . . . DOH!
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Thomas....

    In me, as we say is not like as a raisin in a bun, but like a wave in the ocean....

    In me, does not mean inner me...

    In me does not mean only in me...

    In me is my access to the divine...(not thru any intermediary of learned study)

    We are expressions of the one...but not the one.... one with the one...

    We cannot see G!d like the fish cannot see the ocean...in him I live and breathe and have my being..

    Saying G!d is within, that there is a power within each of us, far greater than anything tha exists outside of us...does not limit G!ds power nor the location of the omnipresent....within EACH....

    peace.

    Yup, Abrahamic we are....and I love hammocks!
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Wil —

    You know the wave is energy passing through a medium? The wave is not the ocean, it is present to the ocean, but there is nothing of the wave that is ocean, nothing of the ocean that is wave ... just a thought ...

    Well Scripture, and dare I say common sense, suggests quite the opposite. "And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not" (John 1:5). If that were true, you would be perfect, for 'grace perfects nature', as the saying goes. We might possess a pass that gets us into the auditorium, but it's not 'access all areas'.

    With no external reference, how could you know you're not suffering total self-delusion?

    But not the one, which is my point ... and the wisdom of the world's sacra doctrina rather suggests we're nowhere as near 'one with the one' as you suppose.

    We cannot see air like the fish cannot see the ocean ... but God is a different thing altogether.

    Sorry, but that's rather a sentimentalism, a powerful and evocative one, but still sentimentalism. There is no room for sentimentalism on the Way.

    God existed before you or I, therefore God is 'outside' or 'other' than us, and our being does not alter nor condition God in any way. The idea of God within describes what is more accurately stated as 'God is immanently present to' to self, not as any thing — as the world is present to the self as things — but as something present to one's very sense of being. God is not our possession.

    In talking of The Way, it is also think that is not the meat of the matter. To go on, in the face of the absence of God, within and/or without, is far greater, more noble and more powerful than the going on with that nice warm feeling inside. It is the absence of God that draws man on, not the presence of God. The Dark Night of the Soul, and all that. Christ always says 'follow me' ... consider the beatitudes ... they all point to this. Look at the matter-of-fact, utterly unspiritual comment from the centurion: "For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it" (Matthew 8:9), and then listen to Our Lord's reply: "And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel." (v10).

    Many people think of the Way as some Lord of the Rings type quest ... it's a lot more mundane than that.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Thomas, We'll wade in the water brother....You get a bucket of the wave, I'll get a bucket of the not wave....we'll send them to a lab and ask them to identify they difference...

    You say there is nothing of the wave is the ocean and nothing of the ocean is the wave...I say the finest lab will not be able to tell us which is which.... one is temporary...a blip, hello and good bye....the other exists.... we roll thru....the eternal....with the eternal but not the eternal....hello and goodbye....and then wave again....the only begotten continuously begotten

    I and the father are one....sweet.

    And because of that....you are ok...and more than ok....forgiven!
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Wil —
    Well there'd be water in one bucket, and nothing in the other, surely?

    I think we're at cross-purposes here. When I say wave, I'm talking about the energy that passes through the water, causing the wave, not the water-volume of the wave.

    Also note that quite often, the water does not move at the passing of the wave, it simply rises and falls. The wave has passed by, and the water is the same as it was before, nothing has changed, really.

    This all very stream-of-consciousness, but it does tend to evaporate when examined.

    Well, 'sweet' for Our Lord, who said it, but He was talking about Himself, not you, not me, not yet ...

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    No probs.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Only if we follow and understand his teachings...

    He lead the way....asked us to follow....everything I have done you can do and more...

    choices...
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I hate to break this to you, Wil ... but he didn't mean you.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Gotta love it! He meant you too! It is upto us to realize our oneness, to make the choice, to decide to dedicate our lives as he did.

    Thomas the bible if full of quotes telling us that G!d is within, that G!d is spirit, that spirit is in us, and without spirit we are dead...

    Tis a joy to live knowing this whole sinful crap is sinful crap. I can't imagine living under that burden...but admire you for putting up with it.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Wil —
    Whoa, fellah! Take a breathe there!

    From past discussions it's evident that you jump on any text that can be read to mean, "hey, Wil, you're a god, dude!' — John 10:34, Acts 17:28 for example (you know 'em, you cite 'em often).

    Your most recent "everything I have done you can do and more" is in your head, it's not in the Bible. Take the rose-tinted glasses off, and let's backtrack to the discourse and look at the context, something, dare I say, you seem wilfully to ignore. But fear not ...

    "Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me." (v1).
    That's believe in me Jesus, Wil, not believe in me Wil.

    "In my Father's house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. And if I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to myself; that where I am, you also may be." (v2-3).
    So ontologically we're talking about 'being in God', which does indeed infer theosis, or deification. But note that He does that, He prepares the house for you, and we will have to relocate to that house. He is not coming to live in our house, which is the point I think you miss every time, we must go and live in His. It's what metanoia (change of heart) is all about. Home is where the heart is. We build houses on sand — in time and space and the ephemeral and contingent — He builds houses in Eternity.

    Big point: Our house is one of many houses, many mansions. What is being spoken of here is Infinite Subjectivity. Now God is beyond the object/subject discourse, but it's a useful metaphor. God is not an object, God defies categorisation. Love cannot be objectified, Love is not the known, it's a way of knowing.

    So the 'many mansions' talks of ... now this is taking me way off the point into a Eriugenean discourse on the theophany of subjectivity, so I'll stop here.

    "And whither I go you know, and the way you know." (v4). Because they know Him, although my namesake still misses the point:

    "Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" (v5).

    And He says:
    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." (v6)

    See where this is heading? It's all about Him, Wil. He goes on:

    "If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him. Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, shew us the Father? Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works." (v7-10).
    The sentence is conditional, it begins 'If ...' So the actuality is the case, we did not know Him, and thus nor the Father. The problem being, as Philip, evidences, that whereas for Christ 'the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works', for us that is not the case.

    "Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? Otherwise believe for the very works' sake." (v11-12).
    So here we have it again. The Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father, but if you find that hard to believe, because we do not see nor sense this, then believe in what your senses tell you, 'believe for the very works' sake'.

    What works? The works that our senses tell us only the Father can do, the miracles: Cure the incurable, give sight to the blind, raise the dead, forgive the sin ...

    Now comes:
    "Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do." (v12)
    So, if indeed it is you who will do greater works, it is because it is the Father who does the work, not you. See? He goes on:

    "Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do." (v13-14)
    He's saying it again. The Son will effect the works of the Father's will through you, but only if you ask the Father in the Son's name, not in your own name. Your name and mine counts for zip, and our works count for zip.

    So that the father may be glorified in the Son, and I cannot help but read you, and you have never corrected me on this point, claiming to do greater works than Jesus in your own name.

    "If you love me, keep my commandments." (v15). Love God. Love your neighbour. Put yourself to one side.

    "And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever." (v16)
    Oh dear. Let me introduce you to that other Paraclete which, in the Christian Tradition we call the Holy Spirit. For ever, by the way, means the Holy Spirit will abide with the Apostles, and the inheritance of the Apostles after they are dead and gone. Something we call Apostolic Tradition. It's the foundation of our faith.

    "The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you." (v17)
    The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the grace that perfects the nature so that it can see, receive and know.

    "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you." (v20)
    In the Sacraments of Grace — the Baptism and the Eucharist.

    "Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more." (v19) The Passion.

    "But you see me: because I live, and you shall live." (v19) The Ascension.

    "In that day you shall know, that I (the Son) am in my Father, and you in me (you in the Son in the Father), and I (the Son) in you (by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who, and it is only He who, reveals the Son." (v19-20)

    Wil, it is the Father who wills the work; the Son who works the work, and the Holy Spirit who perfects that nature through whom the work is worked.

    So, in short, as long as you are full of you, and how great you are, then your heart is centered in yourself, in your old house, and your new mansion, prepared for you, stands empty.

    +++

    Yes, to the glory of the Father, not the glory of one's own existence.

    That's your problem, you just snatch out the quote and wave it like a flag. It becomes trite and meaningless because it's lost all context, and ends up a dogma of your own self-affirmation.

    So the Bible is crap? Morality is a crock of shit? That seems an extreme case of cherry-picking to me.

    I mean, Jesus has quite a bit to say about sin. You think all that's crap?

    Then, like a fish in the ocean, you're in it, you just don't see it.

    We both live under a burden, Wil. Yours is that you want to save yourself, and impress the pants off the world in the process.

    I know it in myself, but I carry that burden lightly, because I have faith in a text that is not full of crap, and live in the hope that I am founded in Him.

    I am quite impressed by Islam. To become a Moslem, all one has to do is declare it. It's a doddle. But then they go to great lengths to live according to that declaration: declare their love of God to all, proclaim Him as the One, True God, pray, fast, give alms to the poor and succour to the needy, undertake pilgrimage and, dare I say it, jihad — in its true sense, which has become so occluded as to become an esoterism...

    If you wanna do the works, Wil, you gotta do the groundwork first. Make straight the way. Prepare the landscape. Lay the foundations.

    I don't mean to be tough, or call it tough love if you choose, but it does seem to me that the Gospel According to Wil implies one skips across the mountain tops in a dance of self-affirmation.

    I mean, the message is, if Bolt can run the 100 metres in 9, then look out, cos you're gonna run it in the 8s.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  12. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Well-Known Member

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    Be like unto your Father which is in heaven = cultivated ettiquette for the audience of Godhead.



    Since God by definition is the First Person
    ---God's Persona is the impetus for Creation of
    all other "Persons, Places & Things".


    God is Supreme Person ---we are small persons in seperation
    by great distances; yet, [ironically] God is the Living Spirit
    that is breathed into our dust-bodies.

    It is all about personal responsibility to carry one's own ettiqutte to fruition
    ---the penultimate is the audience of God's Person face to face
    ---just as we humans are accustomed to do.

    more ettiquette rules:

    matthew 5:45
    That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven

    Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
    9 Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. . . .

    The Nature of the Soul = an individual spirit spark of living consciousness
    [the 'atma' is made of spirit energy, namely, 'sat chitta ananda' (eternality consciousness bliss)]

    The small soul = a person made of eternality consciousness bliss.
    Eternality consciousness bliss emanate/originate in God's Persona.

    The Divine is Spirit-Soul. Godhead is the Supreme Persona.
    I keep harping on and on whislt using the Word "Persona"
    ---I do not refer to ego-based "personality during the span of a birth;
    along with it's behavioral conditioning & re-active un-resolved life conflicts".
    No. I refer to 'Soul" as the as the nexus of a living beings life-Force.

    Soul is synonymous with Person ---
    this is how I speak the sanskrit meaning of soul.
    The Life-force of the Soul is a Person ---
    just as their Father in Heaven is.

    We spirit souls [individual persons] are in seperation from the
    spiritual Kingdom of God's own abode outside time and material energy
    [sattva Raja Tama guna kala karma & samsara's lila of facilitating births
    [in seperation] during which the souls transmigrate whilst 'enjoying'
    their allotted bodies and the conconminant propensities for sense pleasure(s)].

    Samsara will endure until re-cognition of God as a singular Person.

    God the Father is in Heaven;
    We are in Samsara of the material Cosmos.
     
  13. topsy

    topsy New Member

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    Yes, i believe there is God. God is Love. Our being arrogant, selfish and callous self won't let us know the true existence of God.
     
  14. topsy

    topsy New Member

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    God is omnipresence, omnipotent, and omniscience. And he exists. But you can only know of his existence if your ways are good and you are selfless.
     
  15. topsy

    topsy New Member

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    God certainly exists.
     
  16. Hangan

    Hangan New Member

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    Surah 1:1-7
    In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

    [All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds

    The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,

    Sovereign of the Day of Recompense.

    It is You we worship and You we ask for help.

    Guide us to the straight path

    The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

    God is the Beginning and the end all is created by his will and by it, it will all return to him

    im not gonna post his 99 names cause the post would be to long
    but God is Ar-Raḥīm (The Exceedingly Merciful)
    God is Al-Khāliq (The Creator)
    God is Ar-Razzāq (The Provider)
    God is Al-ʿAlīm (The All-Knowing, Omniscient)
    God is As-Samīʿ (The All Hearing)
    God is Al-Baṣīr (The All Seeing)
    God is Al-Ḥakīm (The All-Wise)

    That will be enough with the names

    Psalms 118:1-4
    Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
    For His mercy endures forever.

    Let Israel now say,
    “His mercy endures forever.”

    Let the house of Aaron now say,
    “His mercy endures forever.”

    Let those who fear the Lord now say,
    “His mercy endures forever.”

    God is Mercifull

    Isaiah 45:22
    "Turn to me and be saved,
    all the ends of the earth!
    For I am God, and there is no other.

    God is One! even though some say he's a trinity they still believe in his Oneness!
    I believe he is God the one and only one in his oneness but thats not what i wanna disscuss

    God's oneness is the thing that makes him Unique it means that there can't be anything like him he is and always will be One we know this cause he says

    Deuteronomy 32:40
    I lift my hand to heaven and declare: As surely as I live forever

    Psalm 90:2
    Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God

    He Was In The Beginning
    As far back as we go, God is already there.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

    God is the Creator of Everything

    John 1:3
    God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.

    Surah 2:29
    It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.

    God is God no mather if you go to Judaism, Christianity or Islam

    Truth is Important and surely God is Truth

    John 14:6
    Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

    John 8:32
    and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

    Mankind has been given Free will to choose to obey God or not what honnor he has given us! still all is predestined God works in the best of ways

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    John 7:17
    If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

    Surah 18:29
    Then whosoever wills, let him believe, and whosoever wills let him disbelieve

    Surah 53:39
    That man can have nothing but what he strives for;

    Surah 13:11
    ... Verily never will God change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls). ...

    some Verses from around the Place to explain abit about God

    Asalamu alaikum! (Peace be upon you)
     
  17. Craz

    Craz Active Member

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    I agree with your view but would add that God could also have created existence, which is beyond my understanding. ( Maybe that's what you meant by infinite in scope.)
     
  18. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I recently saw an episode of Babylon 5 where one of the characters was asked “What is truth, and what is God?” and I thought his answer was very interesting.
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Often when pointing at the moon....someone will look at your finger...

    perspective....

    Yes the physical is not G!d, but a physical manifestation of G!d....the continuallly begotten of the only begotten.
     
  20. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I don't understand why some people think god doesn't have a body. The spirit is a pattern which is compatible with the soul and then the body. In the original translation it did not say GOD. It said the Creator(s) which is singular as well as plural all at the same time. The first human(s) were created in the IMAGE and LIKENESS of the Creator(s). Heavenly beings have bodies but they are much larger than human beings and their bodies consist of more light. There are some differences. For example Archangels do have wings and their hearts are located in the center of their chests, but each does have an opposite called an archiea. Michael is compared to Adam. GOD has a body soul and spirit that is one with himself. He has a human face. He is huge. Saying god doesn't have a body doesn't make sense according to scripture or logic. Human beings are NOT one with their soul and spirit. If they were they would be immortal like they were prior to the fall.
     

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