A spiritual person is...

[Kenneth]

I appreciate all your views and comments to my thread "What it means to be a spiritual person? I agree with some of your views and wish to add further.

Before we go into the meaning of a spiritual person; In this context, what could we mention about atheists or those who do their duty alone and do not give much importance to spirituality or who do not have the correct knowledge about any religion, its teachings, rituals, meditation, etc. Or those who are completely sinful and in-human. Take Hitler or eg. or the person who dropped the dropped the atom bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to kill thousands of people. Or the people who took the planes to bomb the twin-towers in US, killing thousands of people.

So many people like this. In our day to day life we would have come across many such Hitler like people, what about all of them. Are they spiritual?

GOD created us in the most varied ways possible. Every thought, act, belief and the results that we experience, is an experience of GOD. Here there is nothing like, this is a perfect bad and a perfect good, my religion is better than your religion, this lifestyle is better than that, etc.

Without the intention of GOD no book would have been written. We say that certain religious books are myth and did not happen. We try and do research and prove or disprove its authenticity. I say that, even if they are not real and only myth, be it. We need to look only for the wisdom and relevance to our day to day life. Without GOD’s intention these words of wisdom would have not been written and become so popular.

One of my favourite thinkers is Osho. In his Book “Krishna the Man and His philosophy” he gives a wonderful explanation of the GOD as Krishna. To him Lord Krishna is ultimate and symbolises GOD. He considers Lord Rama to be incomplete and stuck to one particular principle. Whereas Lord Krishna is complete and more realistic and true nature of GOD and accepts life and everything as it is.

Osho again criticises Mahatma Gandhi because he shuns war unlike Krishna when it is needed. Osho says that Mahatama Gandhi could practice Non-Violence to the liberal British, but what if he was doing it against Hitler who equals Duryodhana in the Mahabharata.

Very good thinking by Osho. But I have a point to mention. If that was the case then why should Lord Krishna give a person like Mahatma Gandhi to this world and make him and his principle of non-violence popular? Why should there be Hitler and other violent people in this world? Why should there be plenty of food, Prosperity on one-side and starvation and poverty on the other?

All opposites are created by GOD to maintain balance and harmony in the world. For us death is the end but according to GOD there is no death for us. Everything is only an experience. Experience of all the extremes possible both good and bad.

Why GOD does this is I believe is for experience? Everything has to be experienced to know and be understood clearly. There has to be an experience of jealously, hatred, love, forgiveness, killing, death, birth, etc. at all the extremes possible. The whiteness of the board is clearly known only when a black mark is scribbled on it. That is why, when certain in-human events happen in the world, it makes many believe that GOD does not exist. At the end, the good values will be understood clearly and surface stronger as mankind would have experienced or know its opposites clearly.

Whether Spirituality has a Vision i.e. to say a perfect lifestyle / order at the personal level for you and me and Nature around us some day in the future is not known. But one thing is clear. Its very goal is to ensure that order and righteousness is maintained in the world when things go really out of control.

I believe that all is from GOD and everything is his experience and hence everything and everybody has to be spiritual. Hence, I believe, that in the unending journey of our souls experiencing all that God has destined for us, we are all spiritual beings.

 

[Vajradhara]

i'm an atheist.

i'm a spiritual being as i've defined it.

i don't ascribe to the same paradigm that you, apparently, do thus my definitions of the same ideas are different than yours.

 

[Kenneth]

i'm an atheist.

i'm a spiritual being as i've defined it.

i don't ascribe to the same paradigm that you, apparently, do thus my definitions of the same ideas are different than yours.

I wish to know your definition.

 

[Vajradhara]

i responded in the thread that you were asking what a spiritual person was but i'll re-post it here:

i have no idea, really, what it means to be spiritual or a spiritual person without understanding how the OP has defined this term.

on a personal note i don't find the word "spiritual" to be of any descriptive benefit in describing my interior landscape nor do i see any reflection of it in the external reality which would allow such a term to be useful in any manner.

using my own understanding of what is being asked i would say that a spiritual being is compassionate, in particular the Buddhist expression of Bodhichitta which means acting towards others from a position of a loving, caring, well intentioned mind and attitude.

 

[Kenneth]

i responded in the thread that you were asking what a spiritual person was but i'll re-post it here:

i have no idea, really, what it means to be spiritual or a spiritual person without understanding how the OP has defined this term.

on a personal note i don't find the word "spiritual" to be of any descriptive benefit in describing my interior landscape nor do i see any reflection of it in the external reality which would allow such a term to be useful in any manner.

using my own understanding of what is being asked i would say that a spiritual being is compassionate, in particular the Buddhist expression of Bodhichitta which means acting towards others from a position of a loving, caring, well intentioned mind and attitude.

Thank you for posting again.

I agree with you. But only that my definition of the word "spiritual person" is different from an “enlightened person”.


I believe that even a person like Hitler is spiritual but he was not an “enlightened person” in his life as Hitler. He may be here on earth today re-born and on his path towards being compassionate as you said and on his path towards enlightenment.

 

[Vajradhara]

i don't think i made mention of any sort of enlightened being and i'm not even sure what that term is meant to indicate in any event nor how it would relate to what we're talking about.

i was alluding to the Buddhist idea of Bodhichitta as that is a fairly well understood expression however that same, say, mental outlook, is present in beings irrespective of their religious point of view or not.

 

[luecy7]

All opposites are created by GOD to maintain balance and harmony in the world. For us death is the end but according to GOD there is no death for us. Everything is only an experience. Experience of all the extremes possible both good and bad.

You sound like the serpent in the garden of eden. I came across a person who said that I could make anything that he did, good or bad. So I asked him if he liked it if someone else does, what he did.

 

[Kenneth]

You sound like the serpent in the garden of eden.

What is your interpretation of the serpent?

I came across a person who said that I could make anything that he did, good or bad. So I asked him if he liked it if someone else does, what he did.

Not able to understand very clearly what you meant.

According to me everything is good in this world to be experienced as long it does not affect the freedom, duties, basic human values of oneself and others.

But for a comparatively larger good to happen to oneself or others it is natural that a bad which might affect oneself or others is also allowed.

Until this is maintained everything is good. When this is not maintained beyond control, the opposites will begin to work to maintain order and righteousness.

 

[Lunitik]

I think it is important to consider whether we could know good without bad, if we could know happy without sad. If all things were good and we were always happy, would we enjoy the experience? It would be normal to us, can you describe how you feel in your normal state? Most simply wouldn't even think to consider describing it - they are used to it.

This certainly is an aspect of what you have said about maintaining balance, but picture a pendulum. Would the pendulum be of any interest or usefulness if it stayed in one spot? Yet in motion it is the maintainer of time in the clock.

 

[luecy7]

What is your interpretation of the serpent?

Without interpreting, your words looked identical to the serpent:
1: Is it true that God has said, "You do not eat of every tree of the garden?"
2: Dying, you do not die. God knows that in the day you eat of it, you are enlightened, and you will be as God knowing good and evil.

It is good to acquire experience, but not all experience.

Not able to understand very clearly what you meant.

You did not recognize the golden rule there: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?

The other person accused me of judging what is good and evil, so I asked him his judgment. The other person was choosing to not apply their own judgment to guide or constrain their own actions.

Discerning which tree is which, and eating the fruit, are not the same. In fact, the person I refer to was a recovering hardcore drug user with a mind to lie, steal, and do whatever it took. He was preferring to not use his mind when it came to his own actions.

According to me everything is good in this world to be experienced as long it does not affect the freedom, duties, basic human values of oneself and others.

You are thinking and limiting what is good. In this sentence, you no longer sound like the serpent.

But for a comparatively larger good to happen to oneself or others it is natural that a bad which might affect oneself or others is also allowed.

Would you recommend that others do drugs, and call it a greater good if they do, as they learn from the experience? If you are saying that people are allowed, or should be allowed to do evil, because there is a greater good in doing so, I agree. To say that doing evil is good, I disagree. I am not saying that doing drugs is evil, but I am saying that like some drugs, doing evil is addictive, bad for one's own health and the health of others involved.

As you contemplate how to oppose the evil without enduring the evil, you might be tempted to justify doing evil against the evil, thus becoming the evil. I submit the golden rule helps differentiate in the discernment.

 

[Kenneth]

This certainly is an aspect of what you have said about maintaining balance, but picture a pendulum. Would the pendulum be of any interest or usefulness if it stayed in one spot? Yet in motion it is the maintainer of time in the clock.

Today the world is like the pendulum all things are happening good and bad at all extremes possible.

I had mentioned in this thread where I mentioned my meaning of spirituality -

"Whether Spirituality has a Vision i.e. to say a perfect lifestyle / order at the personal level for you and me and Nature around us some day in the future is not known."

This is like the pendulum stopping; where everything would be very different. All the extreme bad would have been seen and experienced so fully that it will not have any more value. The joy and estacy of good will be everywhere and be felt so completely. Shall we call it heaven.

Until then I feel that the pendulum will move.

This may be the case as I imagine and all may start all over again with a complete set of experiences. Who knows this heaven may have happened in the past several times and the cycle started again several times.

 

[Kenneth]

My Reply to the Post by luecy7

According to me the serpent was created by GOD and everything else had happened as GOD wanted it to happen.


I had written...

"All opposites are created by GOD to maintain balance and harmony in the world. For us death is the end but according to GOD there is no death for us. Everything is only an experience. Experience of all the extremes possible both good and bad."

You had replied...

"You sound like the serpent in the garden of eden. I came across a person who said that I could make anything that he did, good or bad. So I asked him if he liked it if someone else does, what he did."

I replied...

"What is your interpretation of the serpent?"

Then you replied...

"Without interpreting, your words looked identical to the serpent:
1: Is it true that God has said, "You do not eat of every tree of the garden?"
2: Dying, you do not die. God knows that in the day you eat of it, you are enlightened, and you will be as God knowing good and evil.

It is good to acquire experience, but not all experience.

You did not recognize the golden rule there: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?

The other person accused me of judging what is good and evil, so I asked him his judgment. The other person was choosing to not apply their own judgment to guide or constrain their own actions.

Discerning which tree is which, and eating the fruit, are not the same. In fact, the person I refer to was a recovering hardcore drug user with a mind to lie, steal, and do whatever it took. He was preferring to not use his mind when it came to his own actions.

You are thinking and limiting what is good. In this sentence, you no longer sound like the serpent.

Would you recommend that others do drugs, and call it a greater good if they do, as they learn from the experience? If you are saying that people are allowed, or should be allowed to do evil, because there is a greater good in doing so, I agree. To say that doing evil is good, I disagree. I am not saying that doing drugs is evil, but I am saying that like some drugs, doing evil is addictive, bad for one's own health and the health of others involved.

As you contemplate how to oppose the evil without enduring the evil, you might be tempted to justify doing evil against the evil, thus becoming the evil. I submit the golden rule helps differentiate in the discernment."


My reply now...

From the above quotes I feel that you have not understood my differentiation of my statement about GOD's experience and human experience.

For GOD everything Good and Bad at all extremes possible that has happened, is happening and will happen is an experience and it is for a Divine purpose.

For GOD the phrase “It is good to acquire experience, but not all experience" does not arise.

But about human experience, I agree about what you said. Not all experience is good.

There is always confusion as to what is good and what constitutes bad as each person is different.

But one thing we always need to understand that...

1. If any Good or Bad as happened even concerning our personal acts, it has happened because of GOD because I strongly believe that nothing happens without his will. We cannot tell that GOD is the creator and protector and say that man is the reason for good or bad. That according to me is not faith. Faith in GOD simply means that we have an unconditional belief that all Good or Bad is from GOD and it happening for some reason. It may sound absurd illogical. But it is the Divine truth. Only then can we go further into understanding spirituality.

2. We all are all spiritual beings as GOD creates, sustains and destroys us to be born again. We are all are on the path towards enlightenment / blissfulness / totally unattachment. Hence even if we do something really wrong we will change and begin to do more and more good in this life and next. It is never too late and hence we need to just relax. If we have done something wrong to others it has happened for some divine purpose. Without GOD's will be cannot do any harm to anybody. If that should not happen he will prevent it somehow. If it has to happen it will happen somehow.

3. Now GOD has given the collective knowledge to mankind over centuries to understand and acknowledge certain common good and bad that every human in this earth will accept.

I shall repeat here what I said.

"According to me everything is good in this world to be experienced as long it does not affect the freedom, duties, basic human values of oneself and others.

But for a comparatively larger good to happen to oneself or others it is natural that a bad which might affect oneself or others is also allowed.

Until this is maintained everything is good. When this is not maintained beyond control, the opposites will begin to work to maintain order and righteousness."

It is because of his will that we have law and order, governments, etc. It is because of his will that an institution of marriage is there today. Marriage in all its forms - Monogamy, polygamy, etc. It is because of his will that there is free sex. And it is also because of him that a disease like AIDS has come into the world to maintain balance. Even though there are contraceptive pills and other preventive methods, there be will other ways by which GOD will maintain balance when things go beyond control.

Even good cannot go beyond a limit. For eg. GOD wanted an experience of modernisation and prosperity and all that would not have been possible without destroying our natural resources.

Hence certain people will understand the limits of bad and good. And certain people will not. It is actually because of these people who are critics that we are able to re-define / fine-tune our definition of good and bad constantly. So take the experience from your friend as from GOD as GOD wants you to also accept the difference and accept the fact that in everything there is something spiritual / divine.

Even with a little unattachment one will actually feel Spirituality to a great extent and a slow growth in one’s consciences and move towards enlightenment.

 

[Lunitik]

I don't understand why Christians insist on believing there was a talking snake in the garden of Eden, does this not insult your intellect?

I have heard many more feasible explanations for this, I will elaborate on one. Serpent does not necessarily refer to snake as the root of the word in the original text is the same as that for self and indeed satan. Thus, Eve is actually merely questioning God, wondering why she is not to take from this tree its fruits. She decides, rather than trusting God, she will see for herself. Through this questioning of God, this giving into desire and curiosity, we have discovered that the world isn't quite as black and white as we thought. We discover free will, which is essentially the nature of all imperfection and distance from God.

This is quite similar to our own individual maturity through life. As a baby, we entirely trust our parents. As we grow older, we remain dependent but begin to form our own ideas, sometimes questioning rather than taking everything they say as fact. Eventually we are entirely left to our own whims and must learn from our own mistakes - this is depicted by their permanent expulsion from the perfect garden.

 

[luecy7]

For GOD everything Good and Bad at all extremes possible that has happened, is happening and will happen is an experience and it is for a Divine purpose.

False. Many things happen that were not God's will, but are permitted.

For GOD the phrase “It is good to acquire experience, but not all experience" does not arise.

False. This may be a tough one to understand or explain.

There is always confusion as to what is good and what constitutes bad as each person is different.

Reflecting on the golden rule helps to eliminate that confusion.

1. If any Good or Bad as happened even concerning our personal acts, it has happened because of GOD because I strongly believe that nothing happens without his will.

Not everything here happens as a result of God's will. With your friends and family in your house: you know they do things, but it is not necessarily your will that they do.

Faith in GOD simply means that we have an unconditional belief that all Good or Bad is from GOD and it happening for some reason. It may sound absurd illogical. But it is the Divine truth. Only then can we go further into understanding spirituality.

I appreciate that this is your viewpoint, but faith requires communication.

We are all are on the path towards enlightenment / blissfulness / totally unattachment.

I hope I'm not.

Hence even if we do something really wrong we will change and begin to do more and more good in this life and next. It is never too late and hence we need to just relax. If we have done something wrong to others it has happened for some divine purpose. Without GOD's will be cannot do any harm to anybody. If that should not happen he will prevent it somehow. If it has to happen it will happen somehow.

False. As your children have freedom, it is not your will necessarily that they do what they do. If a person is not a forgiving person, then they should not expect to be forgiven.

3. Now GOD has given the collective knowledge to mankind over centuries to understand and acknowledge certain common good and bad that every human in this earth will accept.

Hearing a path and taking a path are two different things. Knowing good, and being good, are two different things.

But for a comparatively larger good to happen to oneself or others it is natural that a bad which might affect oneself or others is also allowed.

Mistakes can be corrected, with change.

It is because of his will that we have law and order, governments, etc.

False. God may permit what takes place, but you do error calling it God's will. Some events are God's will, but not all. You are referring to God in vain.

So take the experience from your friend as from GOD as GOD wants you to also accept the difference and accept the fact that in everything there is something spiritual / divine.

Who are you suggesting is a friend?

Even with a little unattachment one will actually feel Spirituality to a great extent and a slow growth in one’s consciences and move towards enlightenment.

Unattachment to what? So what do you call this belief: Monasticism? Stoicism? Cynicism?

Sorry to be lengthy, point by point.

 

[Kenneth]

False. Many things happen that were not God's will, but are permitted.

False. This may be a tough one to understand or explain.

Reflecting on the golden rule helps to eliminate that confusion.

Not everything here happens as a result of God's will. With your friends and family in your house: you know they do things, but it is not necessarily your will that they do.

I appreciate that this is your viewpoint, but faith requires communication.

I hope I'm not.

False. As your children have freedom, it is not your will necessarily that they do what they do. If a person is not a forgiving person, then they should not expect to be forgiven.

Hearing a path and taking a path are two different things. Knowing good, and being good, are two different things.

Mistakes can be corrected, with change.

False. God may permit what takes place, but you do error calling it God's will. Some events are God's will, but not all. You are referring to God in vain.

Who are you suggesting is a friend?

Unattachment to what? So what do you call this belief: Monasticism? Stoicism? Cynicism?

Sorry to be lengthy, point by point.

I explained what I felt and experienced.

There are 3 things that affect our day to day life.

1. Nature - The weather, climate conditions in different places of the earth, natural disasters and all that are pertaining to nature. All that which we can see and experience, but we cannot do anything much beyond a limit come under this category.

2. Our own personal wish - All that we desire and do to fulfil or achieve something. Where we feel that we have all control over it.

3. God's wish – Where we feel that it is beyond ones personal control. Unlike nature it is all that which happens and we experience in our day to day life, but we cannot see or understand the reason. It just happens or does not happen to us inspite of our best efforts to make it happen or not to make it happen and the reason remains a mystery. No religion can give a complete answer as all of them are limited by human thinking. No two people are alike; like our finger prints. The understanding of it always remains a mystery and it is not necessary to be understood. God’s experience is very unique to each one of us either as an individual or as a family or as a religious group.

Of the three; following and accepting God’s wish is of the highest. By trying to unconditionally accept this fact in every moment in our lives, there will be tremendous joy and fulfilment.

For that to happen we need to be unattached like the Lotus leaf. A lotus leaf in always in water but yet it does allow the water to stay on its leaves. A rose is a rose, is a rose. It does not search how to become something else. It is totally present to the divinity that has created it and lives totally natural as the divine power has meant it to be. We need to be natural and with complete freedom from all conditioning as far as possible to feel the Divine presence to a much greater extent.

When we begin to feel the divine presence, we live our life moment by moment as it presents itself and we are never in fear and guilt and act with wisdom. Since we know that everything is from GOD we will live with complete fulfilment. There is nothing more to search and fulfil.

This thinking is not man-made to be definedand it is not part of anything for a need to define and distinguish. It is what is. For a better understanding, we shall call this Spiritualism. Reading the holy books and attending sermons and following a particular faith or just doing our duties help us, but Spiritualism is of the highest, unique to each one us and natural.

 

[luecy7]

I explained what I felt and experienced.

There are 3 things that affect our day to day life.

1. Nature - The weather, climate conditions in different places of the earth, natural disasters and all that are pertaining to nature. All that which we can see and experience, but we cannot do anything much beyond a limit come under this category.

2. Our own personal wish - All that we desire and do to fulfil or achieve something. Where we feel that we have all control over it.

3. God's wish – Where we feel that it is beyond ones personal control. Unlike nature it is all that which happens and we experience in our day to day life, but we cannot see or understand the reason. It just happens or does not happen to us inspite of our best efforts to make it happen or not to make it happen and the reason remains a mystery. No religion can give a complete answer as all of them are limited by human thinking. No two people are alike; like our finger prints. The understanding of it always remains a mystery and it is not necessary to be understood. God’s experience is very unique to each one of us either as an individual or as a family or as a religious group.

Of the three; following and accepting God’s wish is of the highest. By trying to unconditionally accept this fact in every moment in our lives, there will be tremendous joy and fulfilment.

Where in your list is your spouse? Your parents? Your siblings? Your children? Your friend? Your enemy? Your neighbor? Good grief man, you have yet to even start living.

For that to happen we need to be unattached like the Lotus leaf. A lotus leaf in always in water but yet it does allow the water to stay on its leaves. A rose is a rose, is a rose. It does not search how to become something else. It is totally present to the divinity that has created it and lives totally natural as the divine power has meant it to be. We need to be natural and with complete freedom from all conditioning as far as possible to feel the Divine presence to a much greater extent.

By your words, you are seeking death. A Lotus tree and a lotus leaf is a chemical machine. I am sure that you are much more. I would not seek unattachment. Seek relationships.

When we begin to feel the divine presence, we live our life moment by moment as it presents itself and we are never in fear and guilt and act with wisdom. Since we know that everything is from GOD we will live with complete fulfilment. There is nothing more to search and fulfil.

Not everything is from God. A car is made by a manufacturer but a person can choose where and how to drive it.

This thinking is not man-made to be definedand it is not part of anything for a need to define and distinguish. It is what is. For a better understanding, we shall call this Spiritualism. Reading the holy books and attending sermons and following a particular faith or just doing our duties help us, but Spiritualism is of the highest, unique to each one us and natural.

I would not worry about the word spiritualism. If I were you, I would focus on the word and concept of faith. Like western society, you have slaughtered the word and made it ambiguous, and thus meaningless. It is just a word, but who has faith in you, and who are you capable of having faith in?

 

[seattlegal]

I would not worry about the word spiritualism. If I were you, I would focus on the word and concept of faith. Like western society, you have slaughtered the word and made it ambiguous, and thus meaningless. It is just a word, but who has faith in you, and who are you capable of having faith in?

LOL, I wouldn't say that ambiguity is meaningless. The way a person goes about interpreting ambiguity often reflects what is going on inside their heart/mind. In this manner, it can be employed for deeper communication than unambiguous words can.

 

[luecy7]

LOL, I wouldn't say that ambiguity is meaningless. The way a person goes about interpreting ambiguity often reflects what is going on inside their heart/mind. In this manner, it can be employed for deeper communication than unambiguous words can.

Interpreting how a person interprets, how a person interprets, how a person interprets... Interpret this: No verbal exchange reveals, or communicates at the level, that having faith does.

 

[seattlegal]

Interpreting how a person interprets, how a person interprets, how a person interprets... Interpret this: No verbal exchange reveals, or communicates at the level, that having faith does.

Indeed.

 

[luecy7]

Indeed.

It takes two.