A spiritual person is...

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Kenneth, Apr 24, 2011.

  1. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    I have looked into theosophy in some depth, however I have found them to be the exact opposite of experiential. They seem to be an attempt to merge every faith into a common cluster of doctrines, but never really seem to actually get anywhere. They are too concerned with voicing opinions and debating to ever actually realize oneness, their every aspect is about reconfirming duality it seems.

    With me, there is the confusion of lack of interest in what is different, I understand spiritual growth as the removal of all forms of duality. The confusion of theosophy is in their intertwining of the stories of the faiths, in their attempt to merge the irrelevant factors. I do not believe we would have an enjoyable discussion in this area since our approaches are completely at odds. Our approaches to seeing how the faiths align is undertaken from completely different angles.
     
  2. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Lunitik,

    It is a fascinating idea, that a being from the "twelfth level" can become an avatara and incarnate on earth whereas a being from the "seventh level" cannot, but this idea doesn't fit into my belief system. I guess we can simply agree to have different belief systems.

    If the Kingdom of God can be experienced here on earth, then they are definitely talking about enlightenment (but not nirvana). I have heard the idea that Moses' Promised Land was not heaven but nirvana, and this makes a lot of sense to me. And as you seem to be suggesting, both the teachings of nirvana and heaven were later merged into a single of concept of heaven and then taught to the masses.

    Do you follow the idea that nirvana is nihilism? If nirvana is the extinguishing of a person, then how can that person go on to higher levels?

    How do you distinguish between enlightenment and nirvana?

    You said,

    "I am really not sure why you would want to come back to this plane given the choice..."

    --> There is only reason: to come back out of compassion. Any other reason is meaningless. Avataras only make the huge sacrifice to incarnate because they do it out of compassion.
     
  3. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    "They seem to be an attempt to merge every faith into a common cluster of doctrines, but never really seem to actually get anywhere."

    --> I'm sorry to hear that you have seen such a negative view of theosophy. My theosophy works quite well for me, and "gets me somewhere".
     
  4. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercur├Žn Buddhist

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    OK, I'll shut up then, even though I don't think Buddhism is nihilistic. :p
     
  5. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    This is certainly contradictory it seems, but this is the problem with combining Buddhist and Hindu teachings in a single discussion. An avatar is not possible in Buddhist teachings, for Buddha has said that a being cannot incarnate lower than his current attainment - for Buddha, it is a constant forward motion, although within each level of existence there are many possibilities based on karma here. Circumstance, for instance, in the human birth can signal former karma, but there is also the total possibility to escape what Hindu's had discussed as their caste system through the karma of this life. In Hindu thinking, your entire life is dictated by the former lifes karma, there is no possibility to elevate paste a certain point. Based on the totality of karma during this life, you may raise in the next or go backwards. This is a significant difference.

    Of course, there is also the concept of the Bohdisatva, which is more aligned to the Hindu concept of avatar perhaps - and also closely assossiated in Buddhism with the concept of God in other traditions. This being is not awakened, he has chosen not to become enlightened or achieve nirvana because he wants to assist beings again. It is essentially the return of a being very close to attainment.

    The Bible states many things on the subject, for instance:

    Luke 9:27: "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."
    and
    Luke 17:21: "nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

    Certainly, the first appears to be saying it is possible here on earth, while the latter states just the same as many great masters, that it is found within.

    No, nirvana is not nihilistic. A person moves to a higher level of existence through karma, but in each realm they must still attain nirvana to escape the cycles of birth and death. No level of existence is permanent, none escapes the natural laws of motion.

    I do not, which is making this discussion complicated, lol

    This is not post-nirvana, and certainly not post-parinirvana. Their act of compassion is during life to hold back their practice, it is not a choice after the death of a Buddha. I have also discussed occult practices to accomplish the same, but again these are taken during life.
     
  6. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    What have you experienced as signs you are getting somewhere? How do you know it is accomplishing anything real? My statements are not only my personal opinion, Sufi Sam had similar complaints, as has Osho said that a lot of it is rubbish. It over-complicates while the nature of the real goal is to simplify until there is nothing, and then realizing this is your true nature. They have sorted things into a very structured teaching, but every word uttered, every concept learned is one more thing you must drop if you are to attain.
     
  7. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    For me, a Christian is one that says Jesus is the only way, as you venture into other faiths you stop being Christian. You can be a follower of Christ, but you are no longer a Christian because you accept things which are likely heretical in Christian schools.

    Anyone that clings to a single belief system without experiential realization of its truth, I am not particularly interested in understanding or conversing with. They are blind, and in my experience attempts to give them sight only result in confrontation or defensiveness. If they are open to your words, it can be fruitful, but otherwise it is not. There is a Sufi rule that the worst you can do for people is wake them when they are blissful in their sleep.
     
  8. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    "What have you experienced as signs you are getting somewhere?"

    --> I have found a belief system that works for me, a belief system that I cannot find a flaw in.
     
  9. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercur├Žn Buddhist

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    LOL. I've never had a Christian try to label me as not being a Christian. I can't remember anyone else, other than you, who has called me "not a Christian."
     
  10. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    This isn't what I mean, I mean how much closer are you to finding your true self, to your inner core, your source?

    It is good that you feel it works for you, but to what end?

    Every spiritual seeker has a purpose for their journey, a reason they entered into it. What do you gain from such an intellectually oriented approach? Many of the faiths the theosophists attempt to reconcile teach of no-mind, theosophy is very much a mind oriented pursuit. Depending on your motivations, this may be a good thing, I just don't understand it personally.
     
  11. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    It is not intended as an insult, I am essentially saying I respect your openness.

    Also, you still haven't had a Christian label you as non-Christian. I am not Christian, I am not Buddhist, not Hindu, not Sufi, no such label is correct. Every belief system has its strengths and weaknesses, I am interested in truth not belief. How is truth realized? Experience.
     
  12. Ciel

    Ciel in essence

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    Lunitik....... I was with Osho and his commune for many years. Now I see it was a grand experiment of existence in spiritual arrogance.
    Yes, Loves illusions I recall........
    I know now arrogance is not the way, simplicity is to retain the love.
    Where are you with Advaita, have you experienced Sri Ramana Maharshi?

    - c -
     
  13. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    The Wikipedia entry on Osho seems to show where such arrogance can lead. Rolls-Royces and bioterror attacks?
     
  14. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    I have read some things about Sri Ramana, but I have not experienced him, no. I read a lot Osho's work mostly for the knowledge of the stories he tells, the insights into areas of interest for me. I began reading him after experiencing Satori for his words had a liberating effect, right and wrong, rude or polite, these are all views. That isn't to say that I do not think there should always be an undercurrent of love in all action, but only that these perceptions are contrived by us and are relative to certain collective notions.

    As with many enlightened masters, I take what fits for me and leave what doesn't. Each of our paths must ultimately be walked alone, although all along the way we should accept the insights which resonate in us. The world doesn't need another Osho, it needs what each of us has within us which is unique - else there is no purpose to our being. It is our task in life to discover this and convey it as best we can. If Osho created in you a need to be like him, he was not a good master, for the masters message is always to know yourself completely. I suppose it is easier for me to remain detached when reading him because I am not in his presence.
     
  15. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Well, the Rolls Royces were the insistence of those at the commune, for it goes that at first he had only one beat up car and they decided this will not do. Osho taught a certain balance between all things, including material and spiritual, for until we leave this place we are obligated to exist in it. I suppose he would justify his lavish living arrangements with his equal ventures into the spiritual.

    As for bio-terror attacks, this is quite debatable I think. It was salmonella poisoning, such outbreaks have happened in society at large due to a bad batch of ice cream being shipped to a convenience store, for instance. It is all essentially rumor and conspiracy theories, for me, the only draw to Osho is his writings - and even here, I make a distinction between earlier texts and later, especially after he was allegedly poisoned and seemed to become quite insane.
     
  16. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    @Nick: I would like to apologize for my prior statements about theosophy, it seems I have fallen into the same trap many do as Madam Blavatsky has discussed in her discourse about whether Theosophy is a religion.

    I have actually spent the morning delving further into the texts than previously and find much in common with what I have come to know elsewhere. It seems that my level of understanding has increased a great deal as, where previously I saw goboldygook I now see well reasoned statements. I suppose I have been writing off Theosophical thought after this confusion and comments such as I have described.

    I must thank you for pointing me back towards this group as it seems to be a well fashioned merging of east and west, as well as a modernization of ancient thought.
     
  17. Ciel

    Ciel in essence

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    Yes, Luntik.........

    There is a great difference between truth, fiction, and the perception of all we would wish to believe. Truth is presence beyond perceptual mind play.

    -c -
     
  18. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    The bioterror attack entry in Wikipedia doesn't seem debatable to me, nor presumably to all the countries that refused him entry after deportation.

    And you see, Luni, you were a theosophist all along but didn't know it :D
     
  19. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    I very much agree!
     
  20. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Whether it is truth or fiction is irrelevant really, as I have said, it is Osho's liberating words which are the draw, his vast knowledge and insight. His actions are utterly irrelevant, he is dead. It is strange that the master is judged, for his whole teaching is about removing judgement as it is another function of mind. Zen masters have killed monks in monasteries and this is almost accepted within the school.

    As for being a theosophist, in the strictest sense of the word I suppose I am, for it means "Divine Wisdom" which I am certainly seeking. Much of theosophist thought is still quite strange, however - especially its concept of a spiritual hierarchy. They maintain utter oneness, yet venture deeply into the dualities of existence after this has occurred. Some is quite interesting, especially their creation explanation. I also quite enjoyed briefly experimenting with some of the meditation techniques they list. For the seeker, they answer many questions, and I think I will be recommending some of these works in the future merely for contemplation pointers.
     

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