A spiritual person is...

[Kenneth]

Where in your list is your spouse? Your parents? Your siblings? Your children? Your friend? Your enemy? Your neighbor? Good grief man, you have yet to even start living.

It may seem that it is a personal wish. But falls under the 3rd: God's wish. Can we select our mother and father? One can only act and react to what has already been destined.

By your words, you are seeking death. A Lotus tree and a lotus leaf is a chemical machine. I am sure that you are much more. I would not seek unattachment. Seek relationships.

What I said is actually beyond life and death and there is no necessity for any seeking. My words are only in the tune of acceptance and contentment not seeking.

You need to read a lot before you get to understand what I’m saying. If you are really interested to know, please read the Bhagavat Gita.[/QUOTE]

Not everything is from God. A car is made by a manufacturer but a person can choose where and how to drive it.

Choosing where and how to drive a car one feels that it is in one’s hands but whether they will return safely back home is not in their hands.

I would not worry about the word spiritualism. If I were you, I would focus on the word and concept of faith.

Why worry and what is your concept of faith.

Like western society, you have slaughtered the word and made it ambiguous, and thus meaningless. It is just a word, but who has faith in you, and who are you capable of having faith in?

When the cup is full to the brim, it only overflows and does not take anything further. We need to empty it to fill any further. Similarly we need to keep our mind free to accept new things as it is.

The words that are ambiguous to you have been generalized by you as meaningless, slaughtered and even questioned the capability of my faith in others and other’s faith in me.

I respect your thoughts and have nothing against it. I only wished to convey something that I deeply felt was meaningful and wanted to share it. But your attachment towards your beliefs is so full that you are not able to even hear any further.

This is what I meant by unattachment. At least for a moment drop all your knowledge and understanding and just listen. Just listening is enough. That is like being a lotus leaf. We have to learn from nature and it is not chemical or man-made. Be with all your knowledge and understanding. But don’t get your head filled with it and be drowned. Spend some time for listening. Some day you will realize that this practice helps you.

 

[Snoopy]

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”
Like this cup, Nan-in said, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?
​

 

[seattlegal]

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”
Like this cup, Nan-in said, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?
​

Did you finish your soup?

Not empty

 

[Snoopy]

I think I'm rather full at the moment thanks!

(are you stalking me?)

 

[seattlegal]

I think I'm rather full at the moment thanks!

(are you stalking me?)

Hmm, could seem that way!
{Sorry for the late reply!}

 

[luecy7]

When the cup is full to the brim, it only overflows and does not take anything further. We need to empty it to fill any further. Similarly we need to keep our mind free to accept new things as it is.

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”
Like this cup, Nan-in said, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?
​

This cup metaphor is wrong, or it is applied wrong. There is an opportunity cost with time and resource, but this is a false and dishonest way to advise someone to devote their attention, have an open mind, or to focus. If it were applied to the source of a person's activity or plans, rather than their existing understandings, opinions, and speculations, then it would be more accurate.

To use a different metaphor, the existing roads do not have to be torn down to travel to new places. You can add roads or remove them later as deemed appropriate. However, if you only travel on the existing roads that you know, then you will never discover new places to build new ones.

To use a different metaphor, it is good to shelve one area of thought so that you can focus with something new or foreign. In a more opportune time it is good to go back to the shelf to work with the new, the old, to compare the new with the old, or to jettison either one.

To use a different metaphor, if you only eat and cook up the recipes that you know, then you will never taste something new or learn new ones.

 

[luecy7]

It may seem that it is a personal wish. But falls under the 3rd: God's wish. Can we select our mother and father? One can only act and react to what has already been destined.

Likewise others can act and react, who are not God. Thus, they too can effect your life, and you can effect theirs, which I submit is good and necessary to develop an understanding of spirit.

You need to read a lot before you get to understand what I’m saying. If you are really interested to know, please read the Bhagavat Gita.

You do not need to read anything else to know what I am saying.

Choosing where and how to drive a car one feels that it is in one’s hands but whether they will return safely back home is not in their hands.

Not entirely in their hands, but a fair bit of it. It is also in the hands of others, who were not on your list of individuals that could affect your life. Agreed?

Why worry and what is your concept of faith.

My faith is in those before me in whom I am having faith, and in those who are having faith in me. Worry may be the wrong word. I mean: to focus or to take measure of.

The words that are ambiguous to you have been generalized by you as meaningless, slaughtered and even questioned the capability of my faith in others and other’s faith in me.

No, I just recognized that it was absent as you questioned what object (religion) to have faith in.

I respect your thoughts and have nothing against it. I only wished to convey something that I deeply felt was meaningful and wanted to share it. But your attachment towards your beliefs is so full that you are not able to even hear any further.

I appreciate what you think. You think I have not been listening. In your words, you strongly believe that nothing happens without God's will. I heard that, I see that in everything you've said, I have seen it before, and I have experienced the evil that gets mentally or verbally justified by it. I know my words are often uncomfortable, and I often know why they are uncomfortable. You wish me to jettison what I believe, in favor of your belief? Fine: By your belief I am not responsible for my eyes and ears, nor mind, nor action. By your belief, neither are you. Why then do you blame me for not understanding, or for not listening?

This is what I meant by unattachment. At least for a moment drop all your knowledge and understanding and just listen. Just listening is enough. That is like being a lotus leaf. We have to learn from nature and it is not chemical or man-made. Be with all your knowledge and understanding. But don’t get your head filled with it and be drowned. Spend some time for listening. Some day you will realize that this practice helps you.

I am responding, which requires listening. Just listening is not enough to describe to you what I see. Are you able to hear my thoughts without reading them?

By your words it seems that I am not enlightened, that I lack your perspective for how to listen to you. I surely lack some form of knowledge or capability. If I were fully enlightened with powers unimaginable, with the capability that you believe I am absent of: It is not what I have that enables me, but the way that I make use of what I have. Are you different? How do you plan to use your enlightenment, or ability to listen, as you claim to have it?

 

[Kenneth]

Likewise others can act and react, who are not God. Thus, they too can effect your life, and you can effect theirs, which I submit is good and necessary to develop an understanding of spirit.

Others can only act and react, but only GOD can present the end result.

You do not need to read anything else to know what I am saying.

So you are so complete and do not wish to read anything else?

Not entirely in their hands, but a fair bit of it. It is also in the hands of others, who were not on your list of individuals that could affect your life. Agreed?

Others do affect. I never said no. All I’m saying is that others affect according to GOD’s wish. For now, it is better if we restrict to understanding of only the important events in a relationship like marriage, separation, reunion, re-marriage, birth of children. GOD’s knows what is best for us at that particular moment.

My faith is in those before me in whom I am having faith, and in those who are having faith in me. Worry may be the wrong word. I mean: to focus or to take measure of.

Please continue to have faith. I am only saying that the important events in a relationship happen because of GOD. Separation, divorce, re-union, marriage, etc all happen with a divine intervention. One needs to believe in that and accept whatever happens without any attachment inspite of one’s best efforts.

I appreciate what you think. You think I have not been listening. In your words, you strongly believe that nothing happens without God's will. I heard that, I see that in everything you've said, I have seen it before, and I have experienced the evil that gets mentally or verbally justified by it. I know my words are often uncomfortable, and I often know why they are uncomfortable. You wish me to jettison what I believe, in favor of your belief? Fine: By your belief I am not responsible for my eyes and ears, nor mind, nor action. By your belief, neither are you. Why then do you blame me for not understanding, or for not listening?

By your words, you are seeking death.

Like western society, you have slaughtered the word and made it ambiguous, and thus meaningless. It is just a word, but who has faith in you, and who are you capable of having faith in?

I never blamed you. I have quoted your words that you mentioned earlier. Actually it is you who were uncomfortable with my words and wanted me to jettison what I believe in favour of believing in relationships.

I am responding, which requires listening. Just listening is not enough to describe to you what I see. Are you able to hear my thoughts without reading them?

By your words it seems that I am not enlightened, that I lack your perspective for how to listen to you. I surely lack some form of knowledge or capability. If I were fully enlightened with powers unimaginable, with the capability that you believe I am absent of: It is not what I have that enables me, but the way that I make use of what I have. Are you different? How do you plan to use your enlightenment, or ability to listen, as you claim to have it?

You are only reading my words as you said and reacting; that’s not listening. According to me, as I said nothing happens without GOD’s wish. If we are communicating in this forum, it is because of GOD. If there are so many opinions being shared, it is because of GOD. So I believe that any listening requires openness. Differences of opinion could be there. But it could be said without under-estimating others opinion. For all you know it could really help you some day.

I am actually listening to your concept of faith. Your importance to relationships. Great thinking, and it make me think and do any course corrections in the way I behave with my relationships. I see GOD’s plans in it and that he is actually reminding me to enrich my dealing with my near and dear ones.

This is how I try my level best to be on the path of enlightment. Enlightenment is not an ordinary thing to achieve so easily. It may happen in this birth or several births and it will happen as per GOD’s plan.

 

[Lunitik]

Kenneth: Why are you trying to define spirituality at all? I would say you are entirely too focused on a particular faith system to be truly religious. You are convinced there is duality and you are pushing this on others. You will never advance spiritually until you realize that organized religion is more about politics than actual spirituality, only then will you seek true religiousness.

True spirituality is simply the path towards self-realization. Even the Bible tells us you must love another as you love yourself, and that God is love. It begins with you, you have not even began if you have not looked deep inside yourself. Completely, I would define spirituality as: the path to becoming acquainted with your spirit. I would define holy as one who has found it - one who has become whole, complete, pure. Of course, in doing this, I have made the same mistake as yourself, I have taken a position that I know. All I really know is that what faith tries to convince us is not appealing at all - I don't want to experience anything for eternity as it is commonly defined, yet, what will burning me accomplish if I am not in my material body? What hogwash! Even pure bliss would become boring after a few thousand years - lol.

 

[Lunitik]

I wanted to edit that post, but admin has decided this is not ok, I also apparently cannot just delete it. Please feel free to ignore what I have said, I feel it is rather reactionary and I apologize.

 

[Kenneth]

Kenneth: Why are you trying to define spirituality at all? I would say you are entirely too focused on a particular faith system to be truly religious.

Completely, I would define spirituality as: the path to becoming acquainted with your spirit. I would define holy as one who has found it - one who has become whole, complete, pure.

Even pure bliss would become boring after a few thousand years - lol.

I wanted to edit that post, but admin has decided this is not ok, I also apparently cannot just delete it. Please feel free to ignore what I have said, I feel it is rather reactionary and I apologize.

You start with: why I am trying to define spirituality and then you give your definition.


One thing I observed in this forum, is that each one of us are trying to present our views and we all seem pushy in some way or the other.

That is why probably the modern Gurus use techniques to hypnotise and make people believe in their way of life.

Learning can happen anywhere with anybody and without our knowledge. It has been a good experience for me from you and others in this forum.

I agree with you that even pure bliss becomes boring after some time and needs change. I think I have communicated enough and that needs change.

 

[Lunitik]

You start with: why I am trying to define spirituality and then you give your definition.

My definition is quite general, you are defining based on your opinion. The real problem is that no one who knows can really explain, yet those that do not know are quick to try.

The flaw is that we all wish to conceptualize everything, our mind is a sorter and does not wish to accept anything it cannot comprehend. Language is perhaps the clearest sign of this, all these words we blurt out, we understand them in a relative way. Each and every sequence of letters conveys a given set of thoughts which provide meaning, and yet in reality they are just shapes we have decided mean something. This really explains the paradox of life, we want meaning so we find it and yet there is no real meaning unless you understand its intent - listen or try to read another language you have not learned, for instance.

Many people do not understand what religion truly means, it has the same root as legion originally - which means a group bound by an ideal. To re-legion means to rediscover our true state of unity. We have called it this for a reason, yet many have forgotten it - we have disagreed on methods and what is to be understood by writings. The flaw is that those who have studied the texts are not themselves enlightened, thus they undoubtedly come to wrong conclusions. Couple this with the utilization of religion within politics, most countries have at least one prominent party which appeals to religion, most great empires have forged unity by mass delusion through religion - you begin to see the mess the world is in today. We must de-program ourselves, we must not accept anything unless there is proof. We must dig deep inside ourselves and decide what is true and what is not, all labels are wrong as they are a function of language, go deeper.

If you dig enough inside yourself, you come to your core, all the great faiths teach about this realization - especially in the mystic corners. Again, I say no other persons texts can take you there because their texts describe their own experience, they can only allude. If you draw a conclusion, keep digging, if you think you know forget it. Eventually there is only truth and you are enlightened.

Good luck in your journey, if you are truly seeking rather than simply trying to comprehend it is possible. The apostles were enlightened, the Bible declares when it was so - Jesus told the apostles they are now as he is, truly friends, yet he is the son of God? Every path has its truths if you do not waste time with that which is false. Be perfect as the father is perfect, know love, for God is love - even in Christianity it is there, but a devoted man's 10% is not much, the Vatican would not look as grand if it guided people to enlightenment.

 

[luecy7]

Others can only act and react, but only GOD can present the end result.

All actions and reactions produce the end result.

So you are so complete and do not wish to read anything else?

I am happy to read on a daily basis, but reading does not complete anything.

Others do affect. I never said no. All I’m saying is that others affect according to GOD’s wish. For now, it is better if we restrict to understanding of only the important events in a relationship like marriage, separation, reunion, re-marriage, birth of children. GOD’s knows what is best for us at that particular moment.

God may or may not inform, and may or may not take action, even as God knows what is best.

Please continue to have faith. I am only saying that the important events in a relationship happen because of GOD. Separation, divorce, re-union, marriage, etc all happen with a divine intervention. One needs to believe in that and accept whatever happens without any attachment inspite of one’s best efforts.

Certainly God can have an influence, and can have control with a range of levels, but is not ruling over your entire life. Similarly you have an influence and have control with a range of levels, but you cannot rule over God's life.

I never blamed you. I have quoted your words that you mentioned earlier. Actually it is you who were uncomfortable with my words and wanted me to jettison what I believe in favour of believing in relationships.

You said I was not listening. I am not saying the same, nor am I uncomfortable with a person who does not understand or agree with me. I don't believe I have requested you to do anything.

You are only reading my words as you said and reacting; that’s not listening.

If by listening, you mean immediately reading the Bhagavad Gita that you declared I must read in order to understand you, then you are correct: I have not read it yet.

According to me, as I said nothing happens without GOD’s wish. If we are communicating in this forum, it is because of GOD. If there are so many opinions being shared, it is because of GOD. So I believe that any listening requires openness. Differences of opinion could be there. But it could be said without under-estimating others opinion. For all you know it could really help you some day.

Perhaps. However, you are declaring God's wish in vain, for it is not yours to declare. As you declare everything to be God's wish, it means very little. You should take responsibility for your actions, or lack thereof.

I am actually listening to your concept of faith. Your importance to relationships. Great thinking, and it make me think and do any course corrections in the way I behave with my relationships. I see GOD’s plans in it and that he is actually reminding me to enrich my dealing with my near and dear ones.

Good for you. Faith is not a matter of merely thinking. It is a joint activity.

This is how I try my level best to be on the path of enlightment. Enlightenment is not an ordinary thing to achieve so easily. It may happen in this birth or several births and it will happen as per GOD’s plan.

It sounds like you are a treasure hunter. As you seek to give the treasure that you do have, I am sure you will find more in unexpected ways.

 

[Snoopy]

One thing I observed in this forum, is that each one of us are trying to present our views and we all seem pushy in some way or the other.

I respect your opinion Kenneth; I am wondering what experience you may have had of any similar forums? In my limited experience this little corner of the net is bordering on deferential civility, compared to some other forums. It's hard to get the 'right' balance. Total freedom leads to endless verbal warfare but too much moderation is like being monitored by the Thought Police.

Just my pushy opinion

 

[seattlegal]

Total freedom leads to endless verbal warfare but too much moderation is like being monitored by the Thought Police.

Just my pushy opinion

**sniffles** I miss the endless verbal warfare!

 

[Snoopy]

**sniffles** I miss the endless verbal warfare!

Aaaahh, still pining for a flame wars sub-forum?

 

[seattlegal]

Aaaahh, still pining for a flame wars sub-forum?

Some like it hot, others like it red hot, and others like it white hot!

**goes back to munching chili peppers**

 

[Snoopy]

We should share a phall curry sometime

 

[seattlegal]

We should share a phall curry sometime

Sounds mucho macho

 

[Dream]

I respect your opinion Kenneth; I am wondering what experience you may have had of any similar forums? In my limited experience this little corner of the net is bordering on deferential civility, compared to some other forums. It's hard to get the 'right' balance. Total freedom leads to endless verbal warfare but too much moderation is like being monitored by the Thought Police.

Just my pushy opinion

Stupidity is the basis of social cohesion, since without it we wouldn't need each other. (In a forum it would lead to decreased conversation.) Better to have a somewhat stupid population interrupted only by the occasional genius than sacrifice our existence. A forum must have some lu-lus to have a forum.

In answer to the opening post, a spiritual person is someone who has matured long enough to appreciate new things but who is not so old that they can't learn new things.