Does God exist?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Sensei, May 22, 2011.

  1. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,786
    Likes Received:
    45
    Namaste william,

    whilst this seems to be correct it actually is not. Jesus may not have killed anyone however IF Jesus is the Creator Deity as depicted in the Old Testament THEN Jesus killed people. leaving that aside, i would suggest a more thorough reading of the Buddhist canon would have put aside the idea that the Buddha Shakyamuni never killed anyone.

    he did. in the Mahayana Jataka Tales the Buddha kills a ferryman during an overnight river crossing after overhearing the ferryman's plans to kill all the passengers during the night and rob them. the Buddha understands the full karmic consequences of both being's actions, his and the ferryman's and chooses to accept the karmic consequence of killing the ferryman to save the ferryman from the karmic consequences of killing all the passengers on the boat.

    the Buddhadharma isn't what people think.

    metta,

    ~v
     
  2. william b

    william b Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    0
    I will still maintain that Mohamed made killing a regular practice. The human incarnation of Jesus did not kill. It is the human incarnation that Christians see as the example to emulate as Muslims look to Mohamed as an example of holy behavior. So my point is still valid I think. In the case of Buddha, it is not a story I was aware of but I can still see it as an example of reluctant killing. If it happened, then the Buddha was killing one life to save more lives. He wasn't killing people who refused to accept that he was the Buddha.
    I think that is an important distinction.
    Mohamed killed Jews for being Jews, Christians for being Christians and refusing to convert.
    So whatever the Bhagavat Gita says on the matter, I say it was the kind of killing that goes beyond the examples we are talking about from other religions.
    Mohamed was much less tolerant than Jesus and Buddha. That cannot be denied.
    I can honestly say that Mohamed is a person I would not feel bad about convicting to spend his life in prison.
     
  3. luecy7

    luecy7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good questions, but they are like asking your brother or sister why your parents had sex, or like asking someone why they chose to have cancer, or like asking your parents why they didn't make your life the way you wished it.

    Why do you believe in your parents when you similarly do not have a shred of evidence that they are your parents?

    I'm afraid I have evidence that you are manufacturing and selling a story about some people that you don't even know. You imagine yourself in their shoes, projecting yourself in their shoes, and that is about it. Hopefully you agree: If you do not see or receive evidence from someone, you still should not manufacture the evidence about them.
     
  4. clothbottom1

    clothbottom1 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think GOD doesn't exist.. As if there is a GOD, there are people who believe and there are some who not and its a fact people who doesn't believe lives there life with fullest and have not regret..then why god?? !!!
     
  5. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2011
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    3
    But many studies have shown a correlation between religion and happiness.

    Religion and happiness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I'm agnostic, btw, so not trying to further any agenda, just stating the facts. As I see it, religion meets many human needs such as explaining the fearful unknowns, social acceptance/belonging, purpose in life, etc.

    Then why God? I like Voltaire's explanation:

    "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
    - Voltaire (1694-1778)
     
  6. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,315
    Likes Received:
    44
    Of course, correlation is not cause.

    And it does not address the question of existence of god.

    If cocaine use was to be shown to be correlated with happiness, should we take it?
     
  7. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    2,277
    Likes Received:
    115

    Uffaah! Guarda questa mierda. Per perchere dica la veritad quando e doppo capite tutti.

    Yaw dawg, watz up with the dissemination-capacitors in ya CPU?

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    Krishna spoke to the Warrior prince Arjuna on the 1st day of a civil war that required approx 80 years in the brewing.

    Arjuna was on the verge of surrenderring the fight before it began, moments after the start Whistle was sounded.

    Arjuna was going to renege on the fight.
    Regional & International Kings & their armies, from all pver the known world had also gathered there, all, awaiting the stalled-start of the daytime-slotted fight-rules, solely caused by Arjuna indicision.

    Arjuna was gonna quit before the start ---due to affection for the opponents past relation to Him.

    Those opponents repeatedly sought to assasinate Arjuna & his family inorder to secure the Royal Thrown without need of sharing it with the Righteous side of the family.

    Bhagavad gita didn't discuss Warrior Ethics ---it discusses the preformance of duty selflessly as per Yogic disciplines, "though I walk the Valley of death . . . ". Arjuna had been overcome with "fear" ---even when his Charioteer [btw, warrior ettiquette was to never shoot the charioteer] was Bhagavan Shree Krishna.

    Krishna's encouraging speech does indeed pre-suppose profound questions that would be left unasked at the time ---so the Gita proves to be profound & fathomless in sublime meaning.

    Just when Arjuna was at his wits end.

    percision specificity perferably please,
    Bhaktajan
     
  8. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,786
    Likes Received:
    45
    ummm.... maybe? :)

    one can easily find the admonishments in the Tipitaka to avoid intoxicants and, at the same time, find plenty of Ch'an/Zen stories related to drunken monks going about breaking stereotypes and being extolled as exemplars of certain other Buddhist teachings.

    hence, in my view, it's terribly important to know why such prohibitions were given and to determine if they apply to ones own practice.

    metta,

    ~v
     
  9. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2011
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hi Snoopy, of course correlation doesn't equal causation. And adherence to religious beliefs does not address the question of existence of god (i.e. Buddhists considered religious but generally don't believe in "God"). But I think we should not be overly dismissive of the correlation between religion and happiness, especially since many of the viewpoints on this forum don't conform to a particular religion so this point is applicable to many of us (myself included).

    As I'm sure you know, agnosticism/atheism is hard work. It's a tougher road to hoe than believing in a cookie-cutter religion (which most of the time in the West means believing in God, hence why I mention in this post). IMHO the "church family" is the main reason happiness correlates with religion. Support group through tough times, social acceptance, etc.

    My first few years away from the "church" were dark years. Not much of a support group when you break away from all your old "church friends and family." I have worked hard over the last 20 years to fill my life with things that bring me happiness and eliminate those that bring suffering, without following a script laid out by a given religious tradition. On the other hand, I have some relatives who haven't given their religious conformity a second's thought and are happy as a clam! Maybe ignorance is bliss, maybe organized religion is indeed the opium of the masses?

    My personal experience is why I've come to the conclusion that, no matter a person's religion (or if they believe in God, which I don't), if it makes them a better person that's a good thing and I support them. I no longer try to "convince" someone that my way is the right way and they are wrong. In fact, I no longer believe they are wrong, even though I believe I'm right. I no longer want to take happiness/peace of mind away from anyone if they're not questioning their beliefs themselves.

    Bottom line for me as an agnostic that doesn't believe in organized religion, I try to incorporate those things into my life that organized religion offers others: social acceptance/belonging (I belong to several social groups), peace of mind (I have come to terms with my mortality after many years of meditation on this topic), knowing my core values (much thought and contemplation and questioning).

    Not sure about cocaine but studies do show increased happiness correlated with watching less TV which works well for me since I don't have one :)
     
  10. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,315
    Likes Received:
    44
    Of course (hopefully) my use of the idea of cocaine was simply to suggest just because something is associated with happiness it may not turn out to be a good idea.

    I have heard of research into happiness and religious belief. One might ask that if the religious people are happier does it matter whether or not their beliefs are based on reality. Ganesha may or may not be real but should we be too concerned if such entities form part of a psychologically supporting framework? I've just been to a funeral. The church was packed, partly because the deceased was so popular but of course also because she was an active member of a Christian church. I'm confident that I couldn't be the source of such a coming together!
     
  11. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,315
    Likes Received:
    44
    One may also ask: is the striving for happiness a Western notion that actually is unnatural and, to be blunt, stupid? I'm wondering if we've been sold an ideal to fuel consumerism to keep the capitalist system going. Life can never mainly consist of persistent happiness perhaps? Maybe our authentic aspiration should be the amelioration of the dis-ease of the human condition and the potential for the attainment of ease in our way of being.
     
  12. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,310
    Likes Received:
    566
    I would say so.
    I'm trying to write down why I believe it is doomed to fail but it's a bit blurry, something about striving for the wrong things, like materialistic security and social prestige, things that are temporary.
    Either way, striving to be content and loving they self is, for me, the foundation for living any life.
     
  13. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    0
    excuse the copy paste sans opinion lol,,,well i would say there is an intelligent cause that is beyond everything we know and who knows, he might be a he with a white beard, though i doubt it



    Questioner: You never mention God. Has he no place in your teaching?


    J Krishnamurti: You talk a great deal about God, don't you? Your books are full of it, you build churches and temples, you perform ceremonies. This pursuit of God indicates the shallowness of your search. Though you repeat the word God, your acts are not godly, are they? Though you worship God, your ways are ungodly. Though you mention God, you exploit others; and the richer you get, the more temples you build. So, you are only familiar with the word God. But, the word is not God, the word is not the thing.


    To find the real, all the verbal utterances of the mind must cease. The image of reality must cease for reality to be. For reality to be, the image and the temple must cease. For the being of the unknown, the mind must put aside its content, the known. To pursue God you must know God. To know what you are pursuing is not to know God. The response which urges you to pursue is born of memory, so what you seek is already created. That which is created is not eternal, it is a product of the mind.


    If there were no books, if there were no gurus, no rituals, and other forms of escape, all that you would know is sorrow and an occasional glimmer of happiness. Then you would want to know what is the cause of sorrow, then you would not escape through fanciful illusions. You may invent Gods and other things, but if you really wish to find out the whole process of suffering, then you will not escape, then you will have no addictions, then you will be faced with what is. Then only will you find out what reality is.


    A man in sorrow cannot find reality. He must be free from sorrow to find it. That which is the unknown cannot be thought about. What you think about is already the known. You can think only of the known. Thought moves from the known to the known, from the secure to the secure, but what is known is not the real.


    So when you think about God, you think about what is known, and the known is in the net of time. The real can only come into being when the mind ceases to create, when the mind is still. This stillness is not a product of compulsion, discipline, or self-hypnosis. There is silence only when all problems have ceased, like the pool that becomes quiet when the breezes stop. So, the mind becomes quiet when the agitator, the thinker, ceases. For the thinker to come to an end, all thoughts which he manufactures must be thought out. It is vain to erect a barrier against thought. Every thought must be felt out and understood. When the mind is still, the reality, the indescribable, comes into being. You cannot invite it. To invite it is to know it, and what is known is not the real. The mind must be simple, unburdened of ideation and belief. For reality to come into being, do not seek it, but understand the causes that agitate the mind and heart. When the creator of problems ceases, then there is tranquillity. In that tranquillity, the blessing of the real comes.
     
  14. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2011
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hi Snoopy, I don't think "striving for happiness" is a Western notion. HHDL #14 (who I know you don't always agree with but many Buddhists follow him) says:

    "I believe that the very purpose of our life is to seek happiness. That is clear. Whether one believes in religion or not, whether one believes in this religion or that religion, we all are seeking something better in life. So, I think, the very motion of our life is towards happiness..."
    - Dalai Lama (1935-present)​

    For me personally, striving for happiness has brought me more happiness. It has helped me increase my awareness of those things that bring me happiness vs. those things which bring me suffering.​


    I don't buy into the argument of the "disease of the human condition." For me, life is a gift to be celebrated, not a disease to be overcome. Sure, everyone's life has some components of suffering, but while we are working to ameliorate our sufferings we can at the same time work to fill our life with more of the things that bring us (and others) happiness. I prefer the glass half-full approach to life.

    One of my favorite native american quotes on living a full life:

    "So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
    Trouble no one about their religion;
    respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.
    Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life.

    Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people.
    Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide.
    Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend,
    even a stranger, when in a lonely place.
    Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

    When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living.
    If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself.

    Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools
    and robs the spirit of its vision.

    When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled
    with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep
    and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way.
    Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."

    Chief Tecumseh (Crouching Tiger) Shawnee Nation 1768-1813
     
  15. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,315
    Likes Received:
    44
    Of course life is a precious gift and there is happiness in it. I'm happy! for your glass half full approach. Perhaps I have a half pint of liquid in a pint glass approach!
     
  16. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,315
    Likes Received:
    44

    The more you sit with it, the less blurry it may be?
     
  17. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,310
    Likes Received:
    566
    I think I should wait a bit before expressing anything. The only thing I have strived for so far is finding my place in society, I think doing what I'm good at and want to be doing is the natural direction for my life now. Other than that I am, in general, satisfied.
    So my limited experience are limiting my insights on the issue.
     
  18. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,786
    Likes Received:
    45
    you're spot on. i'll repost something i've posted elsewhere if i may:

    the culture industry present in advanced capitalism ensures something is for everyone so that no one may escape while the worth of an individual being is hardly more than a pleasant personality, good teeth and lack of body odor. all the while the apparent variety of choices serving as an edifice for the monolithic sameness of choice conditions people to accept that our value lies in the interchangeability of our skills, being productive and submissively conformist with an inability or desire to imagine anything different. the diner is constantly tempted by the menu yet the food is never delivered.

    metta,

    ~v
     
  19. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2011
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    3
    As a wine/mead maker, I'm a wineglass half-full kind of guy :)
     
  20. vizenos

    vizenos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2011
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    Statement 1 ("If you know God, then God exists.") is derived from Job, but not from Matthew.

    Statement 2 ("If God knows you, then you exist.") is derived from Matthew, but not from Job.

    The two statements are separate and not interdependent.

    Well, I should hope so! Does anyone think they should be required to adhere to Orthodox Christian theology? If so, it is not I. They have the Zohar; we have the Philokalia; the two present radically differing approaches to understanding reality.

    And do you bind one thing to itself? If so, whatever for? Or do you bind two or more discrete objects or entities together? Obviously you've made my argument for me, here; I have nothing to add.

    Since "union" can only occur between two or more discrete objects and/or entities, once again you've made my argument for me. Have you decided what to name your "all-is-one" belief, since obviously, as you yourself state, "religion" doesn't apply to it?:D

    Never having met the gentlemen, "trust" of them is rather irrelevant at best. As for what is "provable", submit your relevant replicable data in evidence, together with whatever hypotheses and predictions you derive therefrom, and I'll gladly take a look at them. You see, dear colleague, anything which is "provable" must also be "falsifiable". You can't have one without the other.:cool:

    This entire passage demonstrates the continuing existence and individuality of all who are baptized into Christ: the "we" of v.13 and the "you" (plural form) of v.27. As v.14 states, "For in fact the body is not one member but many." One body, many members: still discrete, still individual.

    An interesting claim, but difficult to support. To deny known truth is the act of an heresiarch, and should a bishop do this, the Church becomes obligated to remove him from office, as occurred first in 449 A.D. and, most recently, in 1999 A.D.

    Paid or unpaid, why would he state otherwise, since he, like all Christians, is entirely dependent upon Christ, without whom we are nothing?:confused:

    Fascinating! If so, you have allies whose understanding of the second coming of Christ appears to differ significantly from that of the Bible, and therefore from that of Orthodox Christian theology. The more relevant question would then become, do you agree with them and, if so, why?:cool:

    Which of course would be impossible if all were in fact one, wouldn't it? Since that is not the case, I agree with you.:)

    Sincerely,
    Jim
     

Share This Page