The truth about Trinity

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Sensei, May 22, 2011.

  1. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    You must be a true believer. John is at best an allegorical tale, even if it gives us some good near-eyewitness testimony about Jerusalem and the Cruxifiction.

    I esp believe that 1.5 is a later addition (as do many others).

    As for the beginning of John. I and my Father are one. Does that make me part of the Trinity?

    I am not being facetious here. There are many Christians who do not take all the canon literally and who believe that some modern textual criticisms (like the Jesus Seminar) are as valid a reason for belief as the word of Philo (used to justify the acceptance of the Septuagint as a good translation). And some who believe that there is a bit of God in each of us that speaks directly to us.

    Pax et amor vincunt omnia, radarmark
     
  2. SoulFood

    SoulFood Established Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  3. SoulFood

    SoulFood Established Member

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    So you spend a lot of time reposting that stuff eh? Jesus was the Messiah (hence the "Christ" Jesus title for Him).
     
  4. donnann

    donnann Well-Known Member

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    Lets blow a trumpet here and state the facts. From the original text it originally said In the beginning was the word and the word was with the CREASTOR(s). The texts have been changed to only express the male aspect.
     
  5. donnann

    donnann Well-Known Member

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    There are so many misconceptions about divinity. Divine beings are not male and female as ONE divine body. There is always two who are opposites one male and one female that even though are TWO are also ONE as well. It amazes me when they label beings as sexless or a oneness of the two sexes as an idividual body. Even if a body has more complex anatomy there is always and opposite. As far as the last quote being in the human body subjects someone to human weaknesses until the body is taken up to its prehuman existance. I am so tired of all of the childish views on divnity, look around , the only difference between now and the original condtion is that no one is one with thier opposite, halfs walking around trying to find it.
     
  6. donnann

    donnann Well-Known Member

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    Problems occur : What about the other half The mother, The daughter and The holy spirit. This refers to the females.
    Women .
     
  7. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Donnann, have you ever read Plato? Look up his symposium and Aristophenes, and you will find an interesting "Myth of the Fall". Men and women were one (back to back if I remember correctly) and the gods disliked this, so they separated us into the two forms we have now.

    If you really believe what you write above, why the homophobia? Is it because you long for the "pre-Fall" days or because your religion tell you so or is it some other reason altogether?

    Your Friend, radarmark
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Amica —

    Actually, I'll think you'll find the traditional Christian understanding of the Trinity is unique. It's not based on agrarian or cosmological determinations, as most, if not all, other triune systems are.

    Your objections can, and have, been answered:
    Adam is of a single, human, created, nature.
    Jesus is the unity of (a created) human nature, and the (uncreated) divine nature. He was never 'raised' from one to the other — the Doctrine of the Incarnation explains this.

    As above.

    As above.

    See Hebrew 4:14, Jude 1:24, Romans 5 and 6 ... also, the Doctrines of the Annunciation and the Immaculate Conceptions answers this.

    But that's one statement, not the whole text, nor is the statement considered in the context of the total evangelium. There are other statements (deeds and actions) which indicate that Jesus IS God, and could not be OTHER than God.

    But Scripture also says He was before all creation (Colossians) and all creation exists in Him and by Him, and for Him (Colosians, Revelations and elsewhere) and even He says 'before creation was, I am' (cf John 8:58) ... so clearly He is God.
    The terms 'Father' and 'Son' are relational terms, they do not describe a thing, but a relation.

    The 'procession' of the Holy Trinity (Lt: circumincession, Gk: perichoreisis) is a sublime mystery explained ... and that 'procession', by the way, is unique to the Holy Trinity.

    Perhaps Melchisedec is a prefigure of Christ ... ?

    The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are also three, but three or one, you cannot determine what or how the Holy Spirit can be, according to material things.

    The Incarnation again ... Here is one instance of the illuminative spiritual insight of the Fathers (informed by the Apostles) ... throughout Scripture, as your own comments show, there is an apparent dichotomy between the humanity and divinity of Christ, but here we see something of the triune life of the Trinity, in the the human person of Christ is led by the Holy Spirit here, as on other occasions.

    It's also notable that although the devil and his demons know Christ is the Son of God, and refer to Him as such (whereas He never refers to Himself as such, nor do men, with equal certainty), the precise nature of this sonship was hidden even from them ... one of three secrets, according to Ignatius of Antioch, that the devil was unaware.

    The Mystery of the Incarnation explains that. The doctrine of kenosis does, also.

    'Person' in this context is an analogous term ... God is not a 'person' in the sense we commonly understand.

    But they are three ... either easy, the human person died, not the divine person, who cannot be killed.

    Does He? are you sure? To me the text leaves the question unanswered, Jesus asks 'why' but his respondent never answers.

    I think this makes it clear that, without informed commentary, people tend to read into the text what they assume to find there.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  9. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada Well-Known Member

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    Very nice thread Sensei, I so much agree with you that here is my share, not that you need any more than what you have built in this post of yours above. But for others to see how much I agree with you:

    The Absolute Unity of God



    Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

    Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labour.

    More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

    More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

    Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibilitly of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

    Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be supperfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

    Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

    Ben
     
  10. donnann

    donnann Well-Known Member

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    Why couldnt god have a son? The earthly kingdom was created in the image of the heavenly one. Dont you know Michael is the firstborn son of the heavenly kingdom, adam the firstborn of the earthly one..not he same person.
     
  11. Toshka

    Toshka Member

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    Completely agree with you.

    If Jesus was God and Jesus was crucified and died then who exactly was looking after the world from Friday afternoon till Sunday Morning and if Jesus was God and lying in his grave in the tomb who was it that rose him back to life if God was dead?

    Makes no sense at all
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    The term 'Trinity' was coined by Tertullian long before Nicea, and it was his reference to established Christian doctrine.

    The evidence is clear that Christians also rejected any association with pagan doctrines until well into the sixth century, so the arguments offered above don't reflect the writings nor doctrine of the time.
     
  13. donnann

    donnann Well-Known Member

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    The term trinity originally meant body soul and spirit.
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    link? Documentation?
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    As above ... your evidence for that?
     
  16. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Reject what you like. Graft is graft. The Tree of LIFE grows on.

    Know Truth, Know Life

    No truth ... no life.

    ;)
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    People like to make such declarations and equivalencies – that the Trinity is the same as the triunes of other religions is a most common misconception – but then the same people usually have no idea of the doctrine or its theology.

    From the outset it has been declared that all subsequent 'determinations' of the Trinity are at best analogical – and today more often than not just inaccurate assumptions.
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    From the Metaphysical Bible Dictionary

    From the Revealing Word
    From How I used Truth...Lesson 7, Annotation 9
    Metaphysical Bible Dictionary | TruthUnity
     
  19. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    Seems to me that the 'truth' about Trinity is not fixed; rather random depending on what one considers the source should be.
     
  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    This is what is interesting about religion...

    There are folks that want to stick with the ways and thoughts of thousands of years ago despite new information.

    Awful.... used to mean full of awe...something wonderful full of wonder...but awful has changed.

    Gay? how about Cell? Or Bad, or Tight or Hook up?

    in our lifetime these have changed meanings...

    or Cult, Rubbers, Thongs?

    Yes the word Trinity had a meaning when it began... The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine | United Church of God

    And now means different things to different people.
     

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