So which church is a cult?

wil

UNeyeR1
Moderator
Messages
22,891
Reaction score
2,565
Points
108
Location
a figment of your imagination
todays pastors are not old testament priests,

large churches can justify full time staff, but smaller churches of 20 or 30 people dont need a full time pastor living off the congregation,
I guess it would depend on what that pastor was giving them, and up for them to decide. I mean, if I wasn't receiving the inspiration, the lesson, the mental challenge and spiritual fulfillment from a pastor...I'd be suggesting our congregation find another, or I'd find another group. And if my preacher's needs for funds were larger than my needs for his weekly talks or classes....again, it would be time for me to move on.

I wonder how the quakers handle their costs...as there is no preacher...hmmm

Indeed, wil called me ordinary so I have titled myself thus.

I know, it's awesome!

How rude!!!
Hey now dang it, ACOT was promoted to extra ordinary...
 

Saltmeister

The Dangerous Dinner
Messages
2,130
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Location
Australia
often peoples tythes pay salaries, something that i find very uncomfortable.


A pastor should get a part-time job so he can support himself. Actually everyone in the church should have a part-time job so they can support the church.

The real problem is the pastor's lifestyle. How much does the pastor spend each year? How big is his lifestyle? $100,000? $10,000? $1,000?

The ideal pastor is someone who does not desire to own a home, car, television, washing machine or computer. The ideal pastor only lives on food, water and sleep. The ideal pastor owns nothing. The community supports him.

why? The church has to be maintained, the bulletins have to be printed, the bills have to be paid, the preacher is there to preach...but still needs to live and eat.

The 'burnt offerings' bring us the perfect lamb for the offering....you think G!d ate that? no...the temple servants and preachers....

The trouble with Western pastors is affluence. Western pastors do not live in a third world society. They do not live in poverty. The problem with the Western world is capitalism. People living in the Western world already have everything they need. They just don't have everything they want.

Do you remember what caused the global financial crisis? It was Americans buying big mortgages that they could not pay off, all because the idea of home ownership was so tempting and irresistable. It was almost like a kind of idolatry and slavery. People got home loans because they felt pressured by society to "buy into" home ownership, throwing away their financial freedom, being held prisoner and having to pay some big debt.

The alternative is people crowding into one house, sleeping on the floor, mixing their germs in the same bathroom and washing machine. I don't want to live like that :)rolleyes::eek:), but the important thing is that a lifestyle like that is survivable.

That is actually the problem with Westerners today. It is the reluctance to live the hard life. It is the desire to live in comfort, to have one's own home, own car. Western pastors are just like everyone else in Western society. They aspire to the dream of home ownership, owning a car, owning their own television, computer, furniture, etc.

I do not believe this is what Jesus had in mind when he talked about the "kingdom of heaven." The kingdom of heaven is not like that. In the kingdom of heaven, everyone is poor. Everything belongs to God. You may be given "wealth" to play with, but it doesn't belong to you. It's like paying a scientist or engineer to work on some important project.

This was how the Tokugawas in Japan controlled their nobility. Anyone who got rich had to spend his money. That way, nobody could threaten the power of the Tokugawas.

todays pastors are not old testament priests, large churches can justify full time staff, but smaller churches of 20 or 30 people dont need a full time pastor living off the congregation,

Today's pastors are spiritually poor. They are just like everyone else. They do not live like the people in the kingdom of heaven.
 

wil

UNeyeR1
Moderator
Messages
22,891
Reaction score
2,565
Points
108
Location
a figment of your imagination
A pastor should get a part-time job so he can support himself. Actually everyone in the church should have a part-time job so they can support the church.
Our preacher is a professor at a local community college and has a photography business. He tithes from both his church income and his outside income. His efforts to put together our sunday talks are well worth what we provide him. He is an avid reader and basically is presenting a research paper every week.
The ideal pastor is someone who does not desire to own a home, car, television, washing machine or computer. The ideal pastor only lives on food, water and sleep. The ideal pastor owns nothing. The community supports him..
Now which is it? He needs to get a job or the community supports him. I've met many a pastor who lives in the home provided next to the church.

I've got no qualms about providing for a preacher as long as s/he is providing my spiritual nourishment. I'd prefer they be comfortable, well fed, and not impovershed on my behalf.
 

bob x

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,618
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
California, USA
The ideal pastor is someone who does not desire to own a home, car, television, washing machine or computer. The ideal pastor only lives on food, water and sleep. The ideal pastor owns nothing. The community supports him.

Among the Digambar Jains, the monks renounce ALL property. They don't have a robe and begging bowl like other Eastern monks: they are naked, and eat only food placed in their hands. This sect was founded by Mahavira Jina, an older contemporary of Siddhartha Gautama Buddha-- who considered him an extremist.
 

Waymarker

Free Christian
Messages
80
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
England
Jesus said people are like trees, and that we can tell they're rotten if their fruit is rotten.
So if any so-called 'christian' group (including the major organised religions) produces bad fruit by deviating from his teachings in any way, they're rotten to the core.
Remember, he said that many people enter the wide gate to destruction, but only a few find the gate to Life.
 

SoulFood

Established Member
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Religious sects that refuse the doctrine of the trinity, especially denying the deity of Christ is the first to come to mind. Such as jw's, mormons, oneness pentecostals, unitarians, etc.
 

Saltmeister

The Dangerous Dinner
Messages
2,130
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Location
Australia
Religious sects that refuse the doctrine of the trinity, especially denying the deity of Christ is the first to come to mind. Such as jw's, mormons, oneness pentecostals, unitarians, etc.

They have to do this in order to oppose the mainstream.
 

radarmark

Quaker-in-the-Making
Messages
3,212
Reaction score
5
Points
0
Location
Yellow Springs Ohio USA
From what Waymarker is saying any group deviating from his word produces bad fruit, they are rotten (I just turned around the two statements). I do not remember any canonical justification for the Trinity, so I doubt any unitarian Christion group (Unitarian-Univeralist, Oneness Pentacostal, Universalist Qualers) deviates from Jesus' word. Jews just do not accept the NT canon, so they by definition do not stray from his word.

ax et amor vincunt omnia, radarmark
 

Bhaktajan II

Hare Krishna Yogi
Messages
2,277
Reaction score
115
Points
63
Sine I am child born as a Catholic and who had Kissed the Bishops ring,
I'd like to chime in on this one.

A cult IMO, simply is any Religious Institution Figureheaded by a Charismatic leader who causes the Institution to serve himself wholely with out any checks and balances ---like a despot. Simply put, 'a Despot led Institution with Religious Banners' = a cult.
 

A Cup Of Tea

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
566
Points
108
Sine I am child born as a Catholic and who had Kissed the Bishops ring,
I'd like to chime in on this one.

A cult IMO, simply is any Religious Institution Figureheaded by a Charismatic leader who causes the Institution to serve himself wholely with out any checks and balances ---like a despot. Simply put, 'a Despot led Institution with Religious Banners' = a cult.
Teocracy?

(Stupid 10 character)
 

radarmark

Quaker-in-the-Making
Messages
3,212
Reaction score
5
Points
0
Location
Yellow Springs Ohio USA
Charismatic leader who leads only to benefit self = Despot. If the depost's group is cloaked in religious trappings then it is a cult. I like that. The despotic leadership can be passed down. Membership can come and go. Trappings can change. Yep.

I would add that the leader controls both membership, that is who is a member (think of Jim Jones), and trappings (in the Middle Ages there were some famous Jewish and Christion cults, or spinter groups, that became muslim).
 

Gatekeeper

Shades of Reason
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Here! Where else?
Meh, maybe they are all cults! Perhaps the real church is the body of Christ (Humanity). The problem is that much of humanity doesn't have a genuine love for all mankind, so we are left with some rotten apples spoiling the whole bunch of us.
 

NiceCupOfTea

Pathetic earthlings
Messages
1,242
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Meh, maybe they are all cults! Perhaps the real church is the body of Christ (Humanity). The problem is that much of humanity doesn't have a genuine love for all mankind, so we are left with some rotten apples spoiling the whole bunch of us.

yep they are all cults.
 

A Cup Of Tea

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
566
Points
108
yep they are all cults.
Cult is not a very well defined word, and I guess any religion could be justifiably called a cult. But then religion = cult and that's not helpful at all.
I have some very specific groups of people in mind when I think of cults and though bhaktajans' definition* is as close as it gets for me it is still hard for me to draw a perfect line. Either I don't use the word at all or I define the word in the context.

*I would like to add that the charismatic leader manipulates it's followers to willingly submit completely to him/her physically, emotionally and spiritually.
 

wil

UNeyeR1
Moderator
Messages
22,891
Reaction score
2,565
Points
108
Location
a figment of your imagination
Cult is not a very well defined word, and I guess any religion could be justifiably called a cult. But then religion = cult and that's not helpful at all.
I have some very specific groups of people in mind when I think of cults and though bhaktajans' definition* is as close as it gets for me it is still hard for me to draw a perfect line. Either I don't use the word at all or I define the word in the context.

*I would like to add that the charismatic leader manipulates it's followers to willingly submit completely to him/her physically, emotionally and spiritually.


Yeah, by definition all religions are cults....religiions don't like that....they'd rather use the word to look down their nose at others.....

But if we have to get a definition of relgion outside of cult...

mine is not and the rest are....

altogether now...
 
Top