The Ark of the Covenant

Discussion in 'Judaism' started by iBrian, Jul 30, 2004.

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  1. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Okay had a look. Sounds like Judgement Day to me (or is that just because my beliefs assume that's what it will be? The Quran states that on Judgement Day disputes between nations will be answered by G-d, as it says here). So where does the Ark come into it? Or am I just being a thicky?

    Well I am devistated. Are you really suggesting there is no Jewish Global Conspiracy to take over and run the world? Next you'll be telling me the Jewish people don't secretly control all the western governments or secretly own all the worlds diamond mines and that it's not true the Jews themselves created the haulocaust in order to hide treasures. :eek: Don't some people have a vivid imagination. :D I once asked a Rabbi, in London, what it meant that the Jewish people where the chosen children of G-d and he said it meant you were simply chosen as the teachers of G-d's true religion. Would you agree with this statement?

    Ah this story I know well, I just didn't get the sandmonkey reference. After this incident the net was down for over a week in our town "due to technical difficulties". People in the west really can't imagine what it is like having no freedom of speach and being terrified of the police state. I have decided to distribute here the governments handbook on controlling the population, sorry if it takes up too much space:

    "It is incumbent on all departments of the government to ensure the safety and wellbeing of our people. This will be achieved through FEAR, state terrorism and absolute adherence to the 'no complaints policy'. Any member of the population that even whispers unhappiness with the system must be arrested, tortured and publically denounced as a liar (no actual proof is necessary). Salaam"

    Of course I don't read Arabic so something may have been lost in translation. :D

    It's the "mostly" that worries me. :confused: I am convinced that G-d has a sense of humour but when I say such a thing in front of my husband, to put it mildly, he doesn't see the funny side. Once during an argument I said "oh right I'll just ring G-d and tell him that shall I?", my hubby lost the plot and said that suggesting G-d has a telephone is blasphemy, I was so pleased I don't understand many arabic swear words. Never mind at least I got 3 whole days quiet solitude until he calmed down, I have noted that arabic people tend to take things very literally. :)

    Salaam
     
  2. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    you're not being a thicky. the ark is necessary for the Temple to work properly as a channel for the Divine Presence. without it, it's just a rehearsal; it may do a lot of good, but lacks the complete effect.

    muwahahahahaaa - remember, i'm a lizard from outer space, according to david icke, like prince philip (!) unfortunately this kind of nonsense is given free rein in the arab world, particularly egypt, because it suits their governments to have scapegoats to take the people's mind off how they don't have freedom and rights and stuff like that. jews are useful lightning rods for the despots of the middle east. i recommend bernard lewis' book "semites and anti-semites" which goes into some detail about how originally european, christian anti-semitism entered the discourse of the arab and muslim worlds, in part due to such people as haj amin al-husseini, may his name be blotted out and the founders of the ba'ath party. in fact nasser and sadat were originally great admirers of nazism as were many in iraq, syria and egypt, which led to many nazis finding haven in these countries after the war, sorry to say, which gave them the opportunity to poison the minds of a generation.

    and this is precisely a case in point - one-party state, etc...

    hur hur hur. he should - doesn't it say in the Qur'an that "G!D Is the best of plotters"? by definition G!D Is best at Everything, which would lead one to imagine Creation as a knock-knock joke...

    "KNOCK, KNOCK!!!"
    "WHO'S THERE????"
    LIGHT!!!!!!!!!

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  3. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    as salaam aleykum Banabrain and Mrs Banabrain

    Will try to keep the woo woo to a minimum.

    I ordered the book online today (just hope they allow it through - they open all the post here to see whats inside, you should see the state of some of my 'red cross parcels' from my mum and the buggers always nick the rowntrees jelly). That should cause a few rows in our house :D . Honestly I just can't believe the anti-semitism here and it is so deep it is part of their blood and bones. What a sad state of affairs.

    To digress for a moment. As it's going off topic feel free to ignore or move it. May I ask your views of the Israeli governments policy of bulldozing bedouin encampments. I saw it on the BBC news yesterday and whilst I accept that the government have a right to demand planning permission etc., it seems a strange thing to do in light of the tensions. I realise they give free housing to these people but that is not their way of life. I liken it to the gypsies in UK (not the drop outs but the true Romanies). Of course it also fuels the fires of hatred in the middle east and lets be honest there is enough fuel on that fire already.

    Oh no - jokes about G-d an absolute no-no. Honestly he looks at me like I need one of those jackets that do up at the back. Maybe that is why the middle east is such a mess, no sense of humour!!!

    Salaam
     
  4. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    gosh, i didn't know it was as bad as that. i wouldn't want to cause you any trouble.

    well actually that's kind of the point of the book - lewis doesn't believe it is so deep; he believes it's basically something that's happened since the 30s and 40s, that jews were never historically hated in the middle east, although we were held in contempt as dhimmi until we had the effrontery to start standing up for ourselves. it is very sad though when you consider what the alternative could be and how well jews and muslims and arabs get on when meeting as equals and friends.

    i think it's probably counterproductive and short-sighted, as a lot of israeli government policy is - although you could say the same of most governments. like most modern societies, israel doesn't really know what to do with nomads. there is a presumption that if they can just get them to settle in development towns, they can be brought into the mainstream and provided with goods and services. on the other hand, there is also a presumption that they're a bunch of backwards troglodytes that could do with "civilising" and this is not a presumption that has ever resulted in sensible policy, albeit i accept that there are some problems with child health, education and the position of women, to say nothing of poverty. of course if the government made it easier to *get* planning permission in the first place people wouldn't actually build illegally and this is a particular problem with israeli arabs, most of whom don't bother to apply because they won't get it, as opposed to, say, settlers, who will ignore the rules because they know they won't often be enforced, although hopefully that is changing now.

    as it happens, in general the bedouin get on quite well with the israelis compared to, say, the egyptians - speak to any bedouin in the sinai about it! plus a lot of them (like the druze and circassians) serve in the army, particularly as specialist trackers. however, israel still has a long way to go before it becomes an equal society, although in my experience the israeli arabs consider themselves better off under israel than, say, the copts. i'm not having a go at egypt, you must understand. i just think that even a third-rate hysterical banana-republic democracy like the israelis have is a better proposition than a one-party police state. the question is to what extent anti-semitism has poisoned the intellectual climate in the muslim and arab worlds. from my arab and muslim friends i know this is by no means completely the case, but it is much worse now in some ways than it has ever been, whilst at the same time being much more hopeful. it's all very contradictory, but, hey, that's the middle east for you. a sense of humour would certainly help out... ironically enough some of the funniest people i know are arab and iranian (and then there's omid djalili!)

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  5. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Oh it's no trouble. At worst it will get ' accidentally lost in transit' or they will charge a huge tax levy in the hope I don't bother to pay it. I put it down as educational material for political studies so hopefully there will be no problem. I would really like a better understanding of the issue though.

    I look forward to reading the book. Have had a great discussion about this last night with a group of friends and the outcome was quite interesting. It seems, as most things do, to be an issue of education. My group of friends included a lawyer, a university professor and then the usual less educated rabble (but I love them) :) .

    I asked the question "do you hate the Jewish people and if so why?". Those with higher education had much less fervent views and understood the political issues, they said they have Jewish friends with whom they like to 'argue' about religion. They Also stressed that the Jewish people are the ones we should endevour to be friendly with as they are the closest to us in religious belief. They were able to discuss the issues of land ownership, political policies, etc with relatively unbiased views.

    Whereas, those with less education held very strong views and had completely incorrect biased 'knowledge' of historical events. They ranted about the Quran telling us to hate the Jews (am pleased to report that one friend who graduated from Al-Azhar put them right about a few things here) and about the war with Israel during Saddat's time as President. Their knowledge of the war was so biased and factually incorrect on a number of issues. I asked where this 'knowledge' had come from and mainly it seems parents and teachers who were alive during the period of Saddat.

    My personal conclusion is that Egyptians need to 'get out more' :D . When you think about it, most of the people I know have never been outside Egypt and as the country is 98% Muslim they get little opportunity to socialise with people outside their own religion or culture.


    Yes very well put, it is a problem all over the world (Red Indians, Aboriginies, Romanies, Cossacks, to name but a few). I wonder why governments feel the need to 'civilise' these people and have them all live in 3 bed semi's with a saloon car and 2.3 children?

    I was very pleased that the BBC report seemed to be supporting the nomadic tribes rather than the Israeli government (as they tend to do in every situation). Personally I don't think the Israeli government did itself any favours in the war with Lebanon last year, it seems from news reports that the world is now looking at them in a different light now. I also find it sad that people tend to see the State of Israel and people of the Jewish faith as one entity - as they do with Islam and terrorism.

    I know in Egypt the government here is trying to 'civilise' the bedouins, it is quite comical, they move from tents to flats and just keep their sheep and goats in the flat with them. Nothing really changes, they just have concrete tents now. I have to laugh when I look out of a window and see goats and sheep in the roof of a 7 story building - glad I didn't have to carry them up the stairs. :)

    My vote goes to leaving all nomadic tribes alone and allowing them to continue their lives peacefully.

    Salaam
     
  6. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    hehe - at least they have some manners. although i'm sure they wouldn't bother if it was edward said, noam chomsky or ilan pappe.

    hmm, yes that can happen, although there are many who are extremely well educated, doctors and such, that still buy into it, like that paediatrician chap who is a big man in the ikhwan - those guys are not big fans of me and mine...

    what, in egypt? i was given to understand that there was only a tiny, elderly community left.

    that's the way i see it too, we have so much in common. however, we're not an evangelising religion, which has important implications.

    state control of the media and education, d'ye see. ain't it the truth. you heard about this hamas tv show where the guy dressed as mickey mouse ("farfour") exhorts the kiddies to "liberate al-aqsa with the blood of the martyrs"? i mean, sheesh, whatever happened to conkers? forget being afraid of the zionists, worry about disney's lawyers.

    hur, hur, hur. that really made me laugh. more english people should marry egyptians if you ask me - get the buggers laughing. i am sure they will be more popular as tourists than the israelis, who are renowned in turkey for arriving at their hotels with plumbing tools and stealing the bathroom fittings - it's cheaper to go on holiday than go to magnet kitchens. deary deary me.

    one part chauvinism, another part well-meaning social engineering and several parts "i don't want those sodding pikeys on my lawn, doris", i suspect. unfortunately many of the travelling fraternity are not their own best ambassadors to put it mildly.

    ah, there's that thing again where people think the bbc supports the other side - you should hear what they think of the bbc in the jewish community. i would find it hard to say that the bbc are at all pro-israeli, considering how much coverage they give to the admittedly horrible palestinian situation for which the israelis must take a large part of the blame.

    i believe the truth is rather more nuanced. the idea that the bbc isn’t prejudiced is of course simply silly. however, it’s not that they’re pro or anti palestinian or israeli. rather, it’s that they like, like all media, to show the “goodies” and the “baddies”, which in the bbc’s case is all about who are the “villains” and the “victims” - so they can sympathise with the “victims”, be they civilian casualties, friendly-fire victims, “collateral damage” (ugh), people whose human rights are violated, etc etc. only the *assertive-aggressive* are criticised - only the *passive-reactive* are admitted to have right on their side. nobody should ever act first without being “pre-emptive”, “reckless” or “disproportionate”, “premature” or “foolhardy” - nobody should ever take a risk, nobody should ever make the first move or take the initiative. it’s precisely what you’d expect of a profession that is at its best when it is reactive and at its worst when it attempts to be proactive by pushing its own agenda. in this way, it’s easy to understand how israel (and the US) are always going to get a kicking from the fearless guardians of balance and second-guessing. and, lest we forget, the reason that human rights violations by israel, the US and indeed the UK are always so closely scrutinised is that they are open societies with a free media. try doing that in saudi or iran (or indeed in egypt i suspect) and see how far you get.

    hah, ain't that the truth - although you will note that as a democratic society the PM, defence minister and army chief of staff are all getting a thorough kicking from media, judiciary and public and will hopefully all have to resign. no such thing has happened to nasrallah, unfortunately.

    deary me, that's the same sort of stupid thing the israelis try.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  7. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Sorry to interrupt I just want to say that I am enjoying your conversation and Im learning so much. Thanks!

    btw the knock knock joke was awesome.
     
  8. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Oh not if I tried that it would be handbags at dawn or would that be stoning at 50 paces?



    Not sure on the age of the Jewish folk but the university professor lectures in theology and 2 people there were his students, so can only assume this is how he knows Jewish people. Have to admit I have never seen a Jew here and I certainly couldn’t blame them, If I were a Jew I would move from here in a heartbeat.



    Please expand on this, sorry but you know I need the idiots guide to Judaism.



    Hey tell me about it, there are satalite channels I have banned my husband from watching, hate filled garbage. I wait until he goes to work and I delete the channels (don’t tell him).



    What did the English ever do to you?



    Please try to remember I am getting on a bit and am quite capable of pee’ing myself laughing!!! I know, I have a very romantic view of nomadic people and I tend to forget about the burnt out cars and rubbish they leave behind, as well as the ‘coincidental’ burglaries.




    Wow now that is interesting about the bbc, because it’s not a view I got from the middle east, I held it long before going there.



    Oh it’s the teddy bear syndrome. One of the farsical news programmes (think it was drop the dead donkey) did a skit a few years back and it didn’t matter which country they covered a war in it always had the same teddy bear on the pile of rubble the villains had left behind.

    What are you suggesting young man? Egypt is a free democratic society, you can say anything you like here – ask the judges that spoke out about Mobaraks vote rigging. Of course you’ll have trouble getting a pass to visit them in the nick. The newspapers in Egypt are being allowed a little more ‘closely monitored’ freedom these days, no really they are, look who lives here? No, they are honest. The internet is getting a bashing now.

    As suicide is a sin, I wonder if speaking out in Iran or Saudi is considered suicide?



    Wish someone would give good old Mobarak a good kicking, literally. Oops I think the police just arrived and I haven’t even finished typing it yet.

    Salaam
     
  9. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Hi Faithfulservant,

    Just jump in. What's your view of all this lack of freedom of speech etc? What about anti-semitism?

    Salaam
     
  10. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    i can recommend Judaism 101 and Relocate for that.

    that's precisely what i'm getting at - victim porn is a scourge of the media.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  11. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Are you kidding? hehe

    I have always had an active imagination.

    Firstly I grew up with the bible and all the Old Testament stories so I have always loved the Jews.

    Secondly, my mom always had those harlequin romances around and I would read them.. there were always the ones with the sheikhs and harems so I romanticized them in my mind.

    Then I grew up... and reality steps in.

    I truly believe that Jews are the spiritual Fathers of my faith and I love them very much because my G-d loves them very much. It bothers me that people hate them and want to remove from this earth more than it bothers me that they feel the same way about Americans. I feel strongly that G-d intended Israel to be the bridge betweem Him and and the rest of the world that the mere fact that those in the world would want to destroy them are bringing about the wrath of G-d wthout knowing it.


    I am enjoying the humor of you both. I think you both edify G-d in your conversation and I appreciate it.
     
  12. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Thank you bananabrain, will check it out. Hope you don't mind if I come back with any questions.

    Salaam
     
  13. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    I am delighted to hear that, I find them to be honourable, respectful and generally speaking very decent people. I used to live in Golders Green in London, which is a Jewish area and I loved it - although the food does nothing for your waistline. :eek:

    Hee hee, tell me about it. I loved the old romantic b&w films with the gorgeous sheikh on the white stallion and the women in beautiful silk clothes. Then I moved to the desert and found they have some rather unsavoury habits, it's damned hot, we wear black bedsheets and the white stallion has changed into a beaten up old taxi. :(

    I always watch the news every day on satalite, so I get BBC english news, Al Jazera Arabic and the US news (my hubby and I like to compare the spin). At new year this year the US news did a fabulous piece on the life of people from the 3 Abrahamic religions living in Jerusalem. Now, I don't know how much spin they put on the piece but I loved it. They talked to people from each religion who all said they live very peacefully among themselves (obviously the ordinary people not the extremists). They talked to 3 women and I was amused that the Muslim woman chose not to cover her hair, while one of the others always covers hers (sorry can't remember if it was the Chriatian or Jew). It was a great piece that showed how people can all live together if we choose to and stop judging each other and finger pointing. The last part of the piece asked 3 small children what they believed heaven would be like. The Jewish child gave a brilliant, very spiritual answer, the Christian child gave the angels, harps and clouds answer and the Muslim child simply said it has the biggest chocolate ice cream ever and you can eat as much as you like :D

    Thankyou. It is nice to inject a little humour sometimes (discussions can get rather intense on here).
     
  14. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    I think I like the ice cream the best :)
     
  15. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    I was hoping for chocolate brownies, with fresh whipped cream :eek:
     
  16. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    Did someone mention brownies ? Juan...you listening ?

    flow....:p
     
  17. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    It occurred to me that since of the Ark of the Covenant is last mentioned in Jeremiah 3:16, and subsequently disappeared from the Temple, how could the Torah be fulfilled by the following descendant High Priests while sacrifices were being made up until the destruction of the Temple. If there was no Ark in the Holy of Holies, then obviously there was no "mercy seat" upon which the High Priest could spinkle blood on the Day of Atonement. So how did this work?
     
  18. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    i'm pretty sure the high priest just sprinkled the blood on the curtain separating the Holy from the Holy of Holies, rather than on the "mercy seat" itself, as it were. you need to have a look at tractate "yoma" of the mishnah which details the procedure in detail. i suggest the jacob neusner translation, or if you can get hold of an artscroll machzor for yom kippur, the whole thing's in there with the magen avraham commentary after the kol nidrei evening service.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  19. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    I keep looking at this thread and thinking about your original question .... it seems to me that the discovery of the ark of the covenant is necessary to enter the promised land and the secret of conquering the land is through spiritual power, not military means or some special expedition .... only its image could be displayed in a museum (a public one) not the actual ark, and it will indeed be a "great discovery" but it will be private and not public .... I pray that the Jewish opinion will be great joy because the Torah holds the keys to its discovery .... these are my thoughts on the question .... he hawai'i au, poh
     
  20. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    abso-fecking-lutely.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
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