human nature - inherently good or evil?

[Lunitik]

To be clear, I do not speak of anarchy... in an aware society, who will be a politician? People will simply partake in the organizations which are building roads or whatever else we need to maintain in our infrastructures - and it will be the people that care about these things, not just the people that can do nothing else to put bread on their table. Politicians are just professional debaters, they rarely accomplish anything themselves.

We should retain voting as a way to make decisions collectively, but right now we are voting to see who gets to make our decisions - it is very strange, because nothing really changes no matter what the people decide.

 

[Lunitik]

To bring it back to the thread topic:

It is not that humans are evil by nature, it is that we fancy ourselves highly and yet despite our technology have actually advanced very little as a whole. We still retain the pack structures, we still do not have anything resembling equality, and we are still self-absorbed utterly. We are still obsessed with shiny things like the bird, still trying to impress each other to get the best mate.

These things aren't evil, but we are fooling ourselves by saying we are civilized - we are becoming more civilized but you only need to walk around New York City for a day to see we have a long way to go, let alone a visit to any 3rd world country... what kind of civilized people permits this?

 

[luecy7]

11 posts in a row must be some form of a record here.

They are not judgments at all, they are devices based on a particular observation.

Honesty is a device then, based on a particular observation. You are not honest?

It works the other way as well though, I will push Eastern thinkers towards the West - only the combination is a totality, only the integration is authentic.

People integrate as they choose, but first they must interact.

I have asked you to point because I think you will find simply in trying to justify how these are choices that none exists in reality.

So, you want my judgment on something?

No one should ever emulate another though, there is nothing authentic about emulation. For one, even if you emulate exactly, you will not understand why the other is doing it - you will be bringing yourself into it.

False.

You know evil to be wrong though, so you do not want to be half that - I simply say there is no such thing as good, it is in your mind only.

As you say there is nothing good, is there something foul? Meditation is clearly not good then, as you say there is no such thing as good.

Theft, rape, murder, dishonesty, etc... are not only ok with me, and I will call them being evil. If for example rape: sex against your will, is perfectly fine with you, then to each his own.

This is not uncommon, it is because from the center it is equal distance to any periphery - and interaction is exactly that, a peripheral event.

False.

That's just it, words do not come from you at all, society has taught them to you and now you understand how to utilize them.

Then you do not speak with honesty or truth, nor dishonesty or lies, for you have no responsibility for your words.

Yes, certainly Buddha will have mirrored what the other has said - this is plainly obvious in instances such as where he has told atheists there is a God and theists there is no God, always he is trying to cause the dropping of conclusions in the unattained.

I have not viewed Buddha as dishonest, though you may claim he had a dishonest forked tongue.

Jesus' whole method is different, you cannot really compare the two. Jesus teaches to go on growing in love so you can become nothingness, Buddha teaches to become nothingness so you can attain the whole. They are going in completely opposite directions, but both will come to the same place in the end.

Interesting belief, but a total fabrication.

Even Jesus says to return to being as a child though, he simply doesn't appear to offer any devices for doing so... as if he simply expects you to know he references innocence, a lack of ready conclusions.

You teach that a child is nothing, but you are mistaken.

 

[Lunitik]

Honesty is a device then, based on a particular observation. You are not honest?

A lie can also be a device, as Buddha shows by telling one person there is a God and another there isn't... it is still based on an observation, he has seen that both have made conclusions not based on experience.

Lying and honesty are extremes, I do not strive for any particular duality, I strive to maintain a balance, to remain centered.

People integrate as they choose, but first they must interact.

Through interaction, if you are not already centered you become easily swayed by what they say. You can never be authentic until you drop everything others have instilled in you.

You do not see this as being true, this is our primary disagreement.

So, you want my judgment on something?

I would like you to see for yourself that your judgement is meaningless, that is only possible if you encounter it yourself though.

False.

Explain why you say it is false... how can falsehood become genuine?

As you say there is nothing good, is there something foul? Meditation is clearly not good then, as you say there is no such thing as good.

I have not said meditation is good, I have said it is useful but if you cling too much to meditation it is as bad as anything else. If you define yourself as a meditator, it is no less unhealthy than any identification.

Theft, rape, murder, dishonesty, etc... are not only ok with me, and I will call them being evil. If for example rape: sex against your will, is perfectly fine with you, then to each his own.

Doing against another is never ok, but it is a disease caused by sexual repression - it has to be understood. Society teaches that promiscuity is bad, we go on highlighting sex, taking advantage of the repression to sell things. It is deeply unhealthy, but rape is a symptom, the rapist is as much a victim as the raped.

False.

Communication can not be anything but periphery, sex is utterly peripheral, what part of interacting for you is not peripheral? You cannot read anothers mind, you cannot feel what another is feeling - you can at best approximate based on their words.

Then you do not speak with honesty or truth, nor dishonesty or lies, for you have no responsibility for your words.

I'd say you are finally getting it, but something tells me you are being sarcastic here. Without language, what is honesty? Without language, what is truth? They simply do not exist at all, they are definitions that man has created.

I have not viewed Buddha as dishonest, though you may claim he had a dishonest forked tongue.

Well then you have ignored something very important about Buddha... you cannot try to understand him based on your current beliefs, I have provided an example of his lies - there is no malice though, this is to be understood, he has lied to help the seeker.

Interesting belief, but a total fabrication.

It is not a fabrication at all, Christianity is a Bhakti tradition, Buddhism is a Jnana tradition. Bhakti fills you with love, you a building something up. Jnana creates understanding, you become nothingness which is exactly what nirvana means. It is like going into the front or back door, they are opposite pursuits but you arrive in the same house. Bhakti is for the feminine energy, Jnana is for the masculine, it is an important distinction - the duality of religion.

We will probably never agree on this subject because you are a female and I am a male... you can discuss with a feminine male, one that engages with a Bhakti tradition and has sacrificed his masculinity, but this isn't what nature wants. It is desirable that the opposites merge, not that two of the same go deeper in that direction. That is what people go on saying is chemistry in relationships, a perfect blend of masculine and feminine energy.

That said, I am still filled with love upon arrival to the home, it is just that I have gotten there in a different way.

You teach that a child is nothing, but you are mistaken.

I said nothing of the sort, I have simply inferred that the child is a clean slate... it lacks conclusions, society has not yet corrupted it.

The child is still innocent.

 

[Etu Malku]

Obviously there has been much said on this thread, ignore me if I am just restating something already said.

For me Good and Evil is subjective, one Man's Good is another Man's Evil. Evil really doesn't exist it is percieved through cultural, socio-political indoctrination and will be different for each and every one of us.

 

[luecy7]

A lie can also be a device, as Buddha shows by telling one person there is a God and another there isn't... it is still based on an observation, he has seen that both have made conclusions not based on experience.

If what you say is true then Buddha was dishonest because he did not speak from his own experience, nor from what he believed; rather, to control the man in front of him. Furthermore if what you say is true then Buddha was a hypocrite, because it was not by hearing someone tell him whether or not God existed, but by his own experience and belief. Since Buddha lived many years before your time, I think you are just trying to justify your own behavior.

Lying and honesty are extremes, I do not strive for any particular duality, I strive to maintain a balance, to remain centered.

According to the gospels, Jesus was an extremist, teaching people to be an extreme. Would you prefer people to tell you lies half of the time?

Through interaction, if you are not already centered you become easily swayed by what they say.

Better to be swayed and learn a lesson from it than to be uninvolved and learn no lesson at all. The lessons of interaction are learned from interaction.

You can never be authentic until you drop everything others have instilled in you.

False. I held a similar belief like this long ago and it is verifiably false. In fact, as you do not permit others to instill information in you, then you have a serious problem. Pretending like an actor is pretending, but doing for real what was given by others, whether good or bad, is very real.

I would like you to see for yourself that your judgement is meaningless, that is only possible if you encounter it yourself though.

Everyone's judgment is meaningful, including yours. As a parent, I encourage children to share their honest judgment.

Explain why you say it is false... how can falsehood become genuine?

Emulating is authentic. I say that from experience.

I have not said meditation is good, I have said it is useful but if you cling too much to meditation it is as bad as anything else. If you define yourself as a meditator, it is no less unhealthy than any identification.

According to the gospels Jesus said God is good and to be good like God.

Doing against another is never ok, but it is a disease caused by sexual repression - it has to be understood. Society teaches that promiscuity is bad, we go on highlighting sex, taking advantage of the repression to sell things. It is deeply unhealthy, but rape is a symptom, the rapist is as much a victim as the raped.

Trying to justify your own behavior?

Communication can not be anything but periphery, sex is utterly peripheral, what part of interacting for you is not peripheral? You cannot read anothers mind, you cannot feel what another is feeling - you can at best approximate based on their words.

Interacting is more than just communication. Sex brings another person into this world, which is definitely not peripheral.

I'd say you are finally getting it, but something tells me you are being sarcastic here. Without language, what is honesty? Without language, what is truth? They simply do not exist at all, they are definitions that man has created.

No, communication and control systems clearly existed before man. There is language in many things, and many ways to deceive or be dishonest.

Well then you have ignored something very important about Buddha... you cannot try to understand him based on your current beliefs, I have provided an example of his lies - there is no malice though, this is to be understood, he has lied to help the seeker.

If a person seeking can not be helped with honesty, then they can not be helped with dishonesty either. I think you are trying to justify your own dishonesty. Would you prefer those closest to you were dishonest with you? Would you prefer that I were dishonest?

It is not a fabrication at all, Christianity is a Bhakti tradition, Buddhism is a Jnana tradition. Bhakti fills you with love, you a building something up. Jnana creates understanding, you become nothingness which is exactly what nirvana means. It is like going into the front or back door, they are opposite pursuits but you arrive in the same house. Bhakti is for the feminine energy, Jnana is for the masculine, it is an important distinction - the duality of religion.

We will probably never agree on this subject because you are a female and I am a male... you can discuss with a feminine male, one that engages with a Bhakti tradition and has sacrificed his masculinity, but this isn't what nature wants. It is desirable that the opposites merge, not that two of the same go deeper in that direction. That is what people go on saying is chemistry in relationships, a perfect blend of masculine and feminine energy.

That said, I am still filled with love upon arrival to the home, it is just that I have gotten there in a different way.

Interesting belief, but yet another total fabrication.

I said nothing of the sort, I have simply inferred that the child is a clean slate... it lacks conclusions, society has not yet corrupted it.

You have inferred and stated your conclusion that Jesus taught for a person to become nothingness.

 

[Lunitik]

If what you say is true then Buddha was dishonest because he did not speak from his own experience, nor from what he believed; rather, to control the man in front of him. Furthermore if what you say is true then Buddha was a hypocrite, because it was not by hearing someone tell him whether or not God existed, but by his own experience and belief. Since Buddha lived many years before your time, I think you are just trying to justify your own behavior.

He was speaking exactly from his experience, though. His experience is that all ready conclusions have to be dropped, that no concept is going to help at all. How is telling an theist there is a God going to help? He will of course agree, but there is no transformation. The atheist has decided there isn't a God though, but there certainly is something which is higher.

You say he is dishonest and a hypocrite, fine but his dharma is still bearing fruit today, so it is really plain irrelevant. You have said I am just trying to justify something, no I am trying to show you that your eyes are closed.

According to the gospels, Jesus was an extremist, teaching people to be an extreme. Would you prefer people to tell you lies half of the time?

This touches on some of the reasons I am not Christian, Jesus has not been a good teacher at all. He has spoken from an awakened state, but has failed to convey how to attain to that state. These things arise naturally after awakening, but prior you will conclude wrongly about his words.

It is the case that everything ever said is only a half truth, it is at most a surface truth. You cannot convey accurately your inner being, and the other cannot see your true intent.

Better to be swayed and learn a lesson from it than to be uninvolved and learn no lesson at all. The lessons of interaction are learned from interaction.

Again, I simply cannot agree. You will learn lessons based on the interactions you have previously had, you will become less trusting because people have taken advantage of you. You will be less loving because when you have given yourself to people in the past, they have hurt you. All sorts of things happen that cause humans to be very callous through interaction, then we wonder why most old people are grouchy.

No, nothing is gained through interaction other than the possibility of friendship.

False. I held a similar belief like this long ago and it is verifiably false. In fact, as you do not permit others to instill information in you, then you have a serious problem. Pretending like an actor is pretending, but doing for real what was given by others, whether good or bad, is very real.

Why is it real? You are not acting naturally at all, you are trying to copy someone else. What use is false information? What can be gained through it? You are saying I have a problem because I refuse to fill my head with nonsense.

Everyone's judgment is meaningful, including yours. As a parent, I encourage children to share their honest judgment.

Judgement is a projection onto reality, it is what you have added to reality. How can it possibly be meaningful?

Emulating is authentic. I say that from experience.

How can being fake actually be authentic? Think about what you are saying...

According to the gospels Jesus said God is good and to be good like God.

Then Jesus is an idiot.

Trying to justify your own behavior?

Yes, I am a serial rapist, you caught me.

Interacting is more than just communication. Sex brings another person into this world, which is definitely not peripheral.

Just because it is happening within your body, it doesn't mean it isn't still a peripheral thing. Please explain how to interact through something more than communication as a normal human, thank you.

No, communication and control systems clearly existed before man. There is language in many things, and many ways to deceive or be dishonest.

There was never anything like good or bad before man, there was threat and friend calls communicated, mating calls, but animals have nothing like judgement. This is uniquely human.

If a person seeking can not be helped with honesty, then they can not be helped with dishonesty either. I think you are trying to justify your own dishonesty. Would you prefer those closest to you were dishonest with you? Would you prefer that I were dishonest?

Again, you are seeing the world as black and white, you are unwilling to see another perspective. Buddha has helped more people than Christ, this is plainly the case. In Christian countries, we have skin heads and people obsessed with the end of the world, all kinds of insanity has arisen out of his teachings. Which is more beneficial if for every crazy person Christ has created, Buddha has created an awakened being? Yet he has contradicted himself repeatedly and Jesus says you have to remain consistent... you have taken Jesus' perspective, but just look around and see what Christ has caused. Buddha has caused nothing of this craziness, his people are still attaining to the ultimate.

Interesting belief, but yet another total fabrication.

Just because you are ignorant of it, doesn't mean I have fabricated it.

You have inferred and stated your conclusion that Jesus taught for a person to become nothingness.

It is not my conclusion, upon utter devotion, you will give yourself over to the beloved completely. As a female, this should actually appeal to you deeply, it should be natural for you to utterly lose yourself to the male energy. This is expressed through the affection women tend to enjoy, they want to be near but eventually the close you get eventually now there is only one - they blend, merge.

 

[Kenneth]

I've been pondering the inherent nature of humans. Rasied as a Christian, I was taught that humans have an inherently evil/sinful nature (selfish, wicked, greedy, deceitful, etc) and need divine intervention (God/Jesus) to redeem us and make us "good".

I recently have been reading some of Dalai Lama's writings. He believes humans are inherently good (non-violent, gentle, truthful, affectionate, etc), and thinks this belief allows him to be more compassionate to his fellow humans.

Some Native American pantheist beliefs that I have studied seem to suggest a neutral human nature; one with nature, nature is indifferent, etc.

Question to the forum: in your religious/spiritual belief do you think human beings are inherently good or inherently evil? Or neutral? Or does it even matter?

How does your viewpoint of human nature factor into your day-to-day life and actions towards others? How does it affect your poilitical views of modern violent conflicts in the Middle East or the political/class struggles we see here in America?

Thanks,
Iowa Guy

Human Nature, behaviour is part of the spiritual experience of God. Every human nature is unique. Even in that uniqueness there is a similarity and commonness among people.

Jesus is an experience, Buddha is an experience, Krishna is an experience, and even Hitler is an experience. Even for God; experience is essential and thus this creation with so many differences in thoughts, viewpoints, religion, good, bad and so on.

There are so many points put forth by many in this thread. All have relevance and that acceptance of the difference / the experience of each individual does matter to understand the vastness of God’s experience; not really the good or bad in anybody's nature.

 

[Lunitik]

18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

Jesus denies being good himself, and seems to say it is impossible to be good... what use is it to strive for something which is impossible? In the first letter to the Corinthians it is said that all are given their roles, and that role is perfect already. I go on saying be authentic, have integrity, do not split yourself at all. It is for the same reason, you can only be that which you have been created to be, fighting your nature is stupid.

It is what priests go on doing though, causing people to split and pit half of their being against the other half. This is called religion but it is utterly against religion, you are creating an inner war, it is completely violent.

 

[Lunitik]

Also interesting from a non-dual perspective:

If God is good and man is evil, what is the synthesis? Jesus does not say he is good because he is enlightened, thus knows these are dualistic. The trinity is the Christian pointer to non-duality, what are the ramifications?

I have said man means mind, God is beyond human understanding - it is behind the minds logic. Go beyond.

 

[luecy7]

You say he is dishonest and a hypocrite, fine but his dharma is still bearing fruit today, so it is really plain irrelevant.

I suppose you know the saying: A good tree bears good fruit, but an evil tree bears evil fruit.

You have said I am just trying to justify something, no I am trying to show you that your eyes are closed.

My vision is limited, but maybe I'm not so blind as you prefer to imagine.

This touches on some of the reasons I am not Christian, Jesus has not been a good teacher at all.

Just a few threads ago you were saying that you were a true Christian.

It is the case that everything ever said is only a half truth, it is at most a surface truth. You cannot convey accurately your inner being, and the other cannot see your true intent.

Fabrication.

Again, I simply cannot agree. You will learn lessons based on the interactions you have previously had, you will become less trusting because people have taken advantage of you. You will be less loving because when you have given yourself to people in the past, they have hurt you. All sorts of things happen that cause humans to be very callous through interaction, then we wonder why most old people are grouchy.

Fabrication.

No, nothing is gained through interaction other than the possibility of friendship.

False.

Why is it real? You are not acting naturally at all, you are trying to copy someone else. What use is false information? What can be gained through it? You are saying I have a problem because I refuse to fill my head with nonsense.

If you can shoot a goal in soccer, then you can, for real, shoot a goal in soccer. You didn't invent soccer, nor the technique. You copied, or emulated, someone else.

Judgement is a projection onto reality, it is what you have added to reality. How can it possibly be meaningful?

Yes everything that uses energy is etched into reality, and judgment is an important part of it.

How can being fake actually be authentic? Think about what you are saying...

There is nothing fake about emulation.

Then Jesus is an idiot.

You don't think he used his brain?

Just because it is happening within your body, it doesn't mean it isn't still a peripheral thing. Please explain how to interact through something more than communication as a normal human, thank you.

Have patience. Do something per the will of another. Ask someone to do something per your will. Give and forgive.

Again, you are seeing the world as black and white, you are unwilling to see another perspective.

Again you claim to see what I see, but you fabricated it. Sorry.

Buddha has helped more people than Christ, this is plainly the case.

A man's measure is his own, and your measure here is plainly fabricated. Sorry.

In Christian countries, we have skin heads and people obsessed with the end of the world, all kinds of insanity has arisen out of his teachings. Which is more beneficial if for every crazy person Christ has created, Buddha has created an awakened being?

Does a man create the behavior of another man?

Yet he has contradicted himself repeatedly and Jesus says you have to remain consistent... you have taken Jesus' perspective, but just look around and see what Christ has caused. Buddha has caused nothing of this craziness, his people are still attaining to the ultimate.

At least you are not attributing everything to being done by the ultimate.

Just because you are ignorant of it, doesn't mean I have fabricated it.

Correct: Since you are ignorant of it, you fabricated it.

It is not my conclusion, upon utter devotion, you will give yourself over to the beloved completely. As a female, this should actually appeal to you deeply, it should be natural for you to utterly lose yourself to the male energy. This is expressed through the affection women tend to enjoy, they want to be near but eventually the close you get eventually now there is only one - they blend, merge.

Fabrication.

 

[Lunitik]

I suppose you know the saying: A good tree bears good fruit, but an evil tree bears evil fruit.

No tree has born such rotten fruit as the Christian tree.

Just as a random example, Hitler was a Christian.

Also, I would never say I am a true Christian, I loath the Christian faith. I will say I love Christ, but Christianity is of Paul and is disgusting.

Everything else you are just saying fabrication and false, your arrogance will not be responded to again.

 

[luecy7]

No tree has born such rotten fruit as the Christian tree.

Just as a random example, Hitler was a Christian.

Also, I would never say I am a true Christian, I loath the Christian faith. I will say I love Christ, but Christianity is of Paul and is disgusting.

One of us does seem to quote Paul (Corinthians) a fair bit. My apology then, you did not say you were a true Christian, but that you love Christ, had achieved what Christ described by being one with the Ultimate, and experiencing the Kingdom of heaven.

Everything else you are just saying fabrication and false, your arrogance will not be responded to again.

Perhaps you are correct. Maybe I am arrogant since I do tend to think that I know what I know, what I see, and what I do, and what my gender is... better than you do. When you get it measurably wrong though, I am just being honest in calling it the way I see it. As an example: I am a straight male with two biological kids who call me dad, and you are welcome to ask my wife as a witness for gender clarification if you wish, because I am not going to prove it to you. If you wish to come and judge me, then you are invited to come on over and spend a little time to get to know me, my family, and to share your judgment. We like to have visitors and we treat them well, but we could put you to work to pay for the travel. You can even call me arrogant and an idiot in front of my family if you wish, though we might look at you a little strange. At least then you will have the opportunity to base some of your viewpoint for what I know, for what I see, for what I do, and for what my gender is... upon something real.

 

[Lunitik]

What you do not permit is that perhaps you know nothing at all of truth, you are arguing in favor of those things experienced of maya and calling it truth.

I use 15 verses from Corinthians because directly in the Bible is something of what I go on discussing... I am utilizing the words to make my point, not because I don't think that overall the book is utter nonsense.

 

[luecy7]

What you do not permit is that perhaps you know nothing at all of truth, you are arguing in favor of those things experienced of maya and calling it truth.

To the contrary, it is not mine to permit whether or not truth is given to me. In the absence of truth, it is a disease to fabricate. I can certainly ask for truth, but I'm not going to take it. By the golden rule: I should ask and give, and not take. I should knock on the door, and not eaves drop or try to break in. I should call, and not wire tap. Those who eaves drop, or wire tap, or fabricate, or lie, have their disease, which is like a cancer. I will conceal and not reveal some things, but I am not trying to deceive you. If you don't see truth in me, then I am sorry you do not receive it.

If you put a rope on the floor in a dark room, and call it a snake, then I do see a snake, and if I likewise fabricate, then maybe even the one that you intended me to see. To deceive and fabricate information is a disease.

I use 15 verses from Corinthians because directly in the Bible is something of what I go on discussing... I am utilizing the words to make my point, not because I don't think that overall the book is utter nonsense.

So you are a disciple of Paul. A Pauline Christian does similarly quote from Paul.

 

[seattlegal]

18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."

He's turning the ruler's attention towards God, away from everything else.

Jesus denies being good himself, and seems to say it is impossible to be good... what use is it to strive for something which is impossible? In the first letter to the Corinthians it is said that all are given their roles, and that role is perfect already. I go on saying be authentic, have integrity, do not split yourself at all. It is for the same reason, you can only be that which you have been created to be, fighting your nature is stupid.

It is what priests go on doing though, causing people to split and pit half of their being against the other half. This is called religion but it is utterly against religion, you are creating an inner war, it is completely violent.

Here you are turning your attention towards everything else, and away from God.

 

[Lunitik]

To the contrary, it is not mine to permit whether or not truth is given to me. In the absence of truth, it is a disease to fabricate. I can certainly ask for truth, but I'm not going to take it. By the golden rule: I should ask and give, and not take. I should knock on the door, and not eaves drop or try to break in. I should call, and not wire tap. Those who eaves drop, or wire tap, or fabricate, or lie, have their disease, which is like a cancer. I will conceal and not reveal some things, but I am not trying to deceive you. If you don't see truth in me, then I am sorry you do not receive it.

If you put a rope on the floor in a dark room, and call it a snake, then I do see a snake, and if I likewise fabricate, then maybe even the one that you intended me to see. To deceive and fabricate information is a disease.

You are in support of your current experience, and arguing against the things I tell you of something higher. Now, I have experienced something higher, you have only experienced the low, whose words are more important do you think? You can stay with the low, but that calls you to be utterly closed to truth. That is all I am offering, the chance to know something else - many religions say it is wrong to deny a gift, perhaps yours says it is fine to leave them.

So you are a disciple of Paul. A Pauline Christian does similarly quote from Paul.

Most Christians are actually Pauline, I have nothing to do with Christianity or any of the nonsense these people have written down the ages.

 

[Lunitik]

He's turning the ruler's attention towards God, away from everything else.

Here you are turning your attention towards everything else, and away from God.

On the contrary, I know myself to be God, and yet I know the significance of the words...

It is naught but another pair of opposites, in Christianity you are told constantly that humans are bad - inherently evil. God is the personification of good in this faith, but to reach higher these must be merged. It is naught but a pointer towards object/subject depiction, the most significant of all opposites to get your head around.

In this type of contemplation, you will drop God - this is why Buddha says there is no God at all - and yet you also drop yourself - hence Buddha saying truth is that of no-self. If only one is dropped, you will be in trouble because there will be an emphasis. Dropping both and you can experience mahamudra, this is the ultimate - but it also calls for dropping everything else mind clings to, everything of the objective has to be dropped. Islam has said it most succinctly "Nothing exists save God", everything is God so you can bring everything down to this statement. Usually, you will not include yourself in that even though the Bible says God is also within you. Once you realize this, you can also merge inner and outer and know God for yourself.

The Bible provides an important hint for the question: What remains when these are merged? It says "God is love", are you love as well? See for yourself

 

[Lunitik]

Luecy: the device is also for you, go into it, let mind run off its tracks and see what happens. Do not simply analyze with logic, that will not do because it is not a logical statement. Religion is not logical, religion is an attempt to cause man to transcend mind, you have to say something illogical to trip mind up - then something can happen, in that space between thoughts it can happen.

Of course, now what is the human? "Man" comes from the Sanskrit "mind", if you have transcended mind you cannot be called man any longer. The only word applicable is God, and the word exactly points to this transcendence. This will offend some, but it only offends because they are not yet aware of the truth of it. My post to seattlegal can allow you to know that truth, but mind cannot come along.

 

[luecy7]

Luecy: the device is also for you, go into it, let mind run off its tracks and see what happens. Do not simply analyze with logic, that will not do because it is not a logical statement. Religion is not logical, religion is an attempt to cause man to transcend mind, you have to say something illogical to trip mind up - then something can happen, in that space between thoughts it can happen.

Of course, now what is the human? "Man" comes from the Sanskrit "mind", if you have transcended mind you cannot be called man any longer. The only word applicable is God, and the word exactly points to this transcendence. This will offend some, but it only offends because they are not yet aware of the truth of it. My post to seattlegal can allow you to know that truth, but mind cannot come along.

I receive enlightenment in the interaction of relationships. You could call that a device too, but a person is not a device. It takes only one person to play with a device. It takes at least two to interact and have a relationship.