Garden of Eden

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Lunitik, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    No you don't, because nothing can be a help. You are making the wall thicker through the acquisition of ego, you feel you understand because you have comprehended words but you have not known their depths.

    All that is necessary is to surrender to NOW. Keep watching mind, its conclusions and judgments and go on inquiring into where these arise from. Know that mind cannot assist in the journey, it cannot come along because the path is not for it. Your heart is all that can come, but how will you drop mind on the way? It is like a persistent stalker, it plays all types of tricks to come along. You simply give yourself utterly to NOW, if you can do that consciously you will arrive this moment. Then you will see how stupid you have been clinging to useless words.
     
  2. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    The whole goal is to drop your identifications. Automatically, if you say you are this or that, it is plain you do not know. Your views too will have to be dropped, right and wrong, every kind of opinion is simply fueling ego. You can do this in an instant or you can use methods to gradually walk the path, but either way all of this will have to be dropped. You will arrive at a point where you are presented with something of object and subject - the fundamental duality itself. Once these are merged, self is annihilated utterly, this is enlightenment.

    Ramana Maharshi - perhaps the greatest sage of our time - and his disciples go on saying to always inquire "Who am I?", what is this "I" which is the foundation of every thought that comes to you? Try it, play with it, is any thought distinct from it? Is this thing claiming to be "I" existential, phenomenal? Simply find out what it is, and you will start to see that mind becomes more and more still. What has seen mind stilling? That is you, find out what that is. Simply know that any answer arrived at logically is wrong, keep going.
     
  3. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    What kind of superpowers do you have to know what is going on in my mind? (Could it be figment of your imagination, a product of your own mind?)

    Perhaps a demonstration might be in order here? ;)
    Citta
    Indeed, it can. ;)
    Oh, I agree that freeing the mind of prejudice is very important in order to be able to see things as they actually are. ;)
     
  4. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is simply that only a silent mind will help, so the particulars of the noise are irrelevant.

    How can something inward be demonstrated externally? You can watch me enter the space, but what will be helpful for you in it? It will look like I am falling asleep, you will not gain much. No, it is better that you find that place in yourself, know it for yourself. Then you can grow in it, but peripheral activity is not going to help much at all.

    This is state of mind, the only beneficial state of mind is a silent mind, a non-asserting mind.

    You actually display at least three games of mind in your short reply ;)

    - the link shows you think you already know something because you have read it
    - your agreement is a way to not permit something to transform you
    - you question instead of allowing something to permeate

    These are each the mind asserting itself into what is going on, why is it necessary that it is present? You permit it because you do not know it is even possible that it isn't present. Your whole conditioning and experience says you are mind - man actually means mind, that is how deeply this illusion goes. You are something else, seek that if you want your religious pursuits to be fruitful in your life.

    Through agreeing, you have not taken the words deeply. Agreement is not unlike disagreement, it is a barrier. Do you think Buddha has spoken that you might agree with him, or that you might transform through their utilization? He even says that you should not accept even what he has said unless it matches your own experience, of course this necessitates experimentation, but never agreement. Even if you think you understand Buddha, you do not, you must still attempt to see what he may be pointing to, whether it differs to your current conclusion. Unless you have direct experience in this way, you are wasting your time with Buddha.
     
  5. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    Let me be a bit more to the point--quit projecting! Your hang ups are yours, not mine, and I am not doing your homework/housework for you, and don't dump your garbage here!

    Clear enough? :)

    Now if you would like to actually consider my words instead of dismissing them and projecting your hang-ups onto me, fine.
     
  6. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not projecting, I am pointing out your projections.

    More than you can know at this time, you have shown your own barrier if you would but realize. You say you are not doing my homework, then why these links to Buddhist nonsense? These are a particular persons experience, I have tried to show you how to create an authentic experience of your own - why do you suppose your ego has been threatened by this?

    What use do you think your words have been? If you can point out what in them you consider valuable, perhaps we can advance on that...
     
  7. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    ROFLMAO!



    I posted Citta because it is associated with heart. You said to drop the mind (did you mean manas?)
    I would prefer your addressing my ideas/questions to your dismissing them and projecting your imaginings of what is in my mind onto what you label as my mind, thank you very much. It is called dialogue. It is not an invitation for you to project your hang-ups onto me.

    Go back and read them.
     
  8. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your own link states that it means "state of mind", Buddha will not have said anything about heart - his whole method is not concerned with it. Love arises out of his practice, but his method is to reduce the influence of mind.

    I have addressed them, you simply have not liked my response. Your projection is that I am dismissing them, in reality I have tried to bring to a place which will be more helpful based on them.

    You are very studied, but study is not going to help, you have to come to a point where you realize acquisition of knowledge is accomplishing nothing, then you can move onto the next phase of seeking. There is a Sufi concept called "the Seven Valleys", you are stuck in the first - for the Sufi there is nothing worse than getting caught in a particular Valley and not advancing.

    The first Valley is search, once you have found it, then there is a love which forms, the second valley. Next is the valley of certitude, there is no longer any room for doubt. Fourth is the valley of unity, direct experience of oneness marks this valley - this is where kensho's start. Fifth is the valley of bliss, now nothing phases you, you are content. Now is the valley of wonderment - this is where satori's begin, longer kensho's essentially. Seventh is the final loss of self, samadhi - now satori is permanent.

    You will know where you are, but be weary of becoming stagnant... do not keep acquiring and relying on knowledge, eventually you will need to apply it to advance. You have become defensive because I am attempting to prod you along, you are not ready and it is fine.

    I must apologize for that, it is compassion though, seeing people stuck is frustrating.
     
  9. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    One example: Animitto Sutta

    There are many other examples I can provide if you are interested.



    And yet you wrote this:
    And you have responded with are unfounded assertions regarding my mind based upon ignorance.

    There is also a a Zen saying--Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
    Thank you for the information regarding the Sufi constructs.

    Thank you for your concern.
     
  10. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    You will note "concentration of the heart", and "steady mind".

    This is quite important, what is the signless concentration of the heart? It is a merging of the dualities, because all dualities are views which are not upheld by heart. The heart does not judge, it does not label, it accepts all as it is.

    You must make mind one pointed in dropping views, all opposites must be dropped. Then super-consciousness, the barrier of self is overcome. Now mind is stilled, it is no longer racing, Buddha calls this "no-mind".

    Life goes on after enlightenment, you do not die. That is all the koan states, you have simply been recreated - born again. Your whole perspective and outlook is totally changed, and yet nothing has really changed. You are perfectly right I have assumed, because you go on attempting to teach, you go on presenting Buddhist knowledge, you go on showing you still cling.

    I have left the boat by the bank after crossing the river, it is as though you keep tracking me down to give it back - it will be a burden now, nothing more.
     
  11. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    We have a word for thinking with the heart: intuition.
     
  12. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,749
    Likes Received:
    2
    ok, but even if all that is true (and, i believe, physicists are telling us that time is relative, which i don't have an issue with) it doesn't mean that our choices are not real *as far as any experiential reality is concerned*. if you don't believe me, try jumping off a roof and experiencing the essential non-reality of gravity. now, it could very well be that all this is an illusory reality or maya (i think that's the term) in G!DSpace and that, Ultimately, none of it actually "happens", but i strongly suspect that in this particularly iteration of this particular set of circumstances, the outcome would be fairly real. it's quite simple, really; what is real to us is not Real to G!D; we can conceive of this Reality, but we cannot experience it and remain real.

    a ridiculous and anti-human position. it's not "compassion" in any way that i understand the term.

    probably because it isn't like you say and buddhists intervene all the time in just about everything.

    yeah....right.

    gosh, that's not risky or controversial at all, is it?

    it will mean what it will mean. it sounds an awful lot like "it's up to you what i mean" to me. in other words, "quit trying to understand Me and take responsibility for your own destiny".

    yep - a box marked "meaningful", as opposed to a meaningless tangle of glutinous verbiage.

    "own" also means "have responsibility for the upkeep and wellbeing of". i bet he didn't do the housework or the gardening or the rolls-royce maintenance, either, did he? how very convenient for him.

    gosh.... gobsmacking.... nobody's ever said that before..... except of course jesus, muhammad, shabbetai tzvi, jacob frank, abdul-baha, mirza ghulam ahmad, marx... i could go on, but it's tough on my suspenders. (as marx himself once said, in fact)

    authentic, as opposed to fraudulent, presumably?

    Osho/Rajneesh

    fantastic stuff! what could *possibly* go wrong with a philosophy like that, eh?

    the kabbalah says nothing of the sort; sources, please. earlier configurations of the sefirotic system were imperfect and hence collapsed, but the tree configuration was the one that worked, despite the admixture of evil. as for the demiurge, that is a gnostic concept, not a kabbalistic one - the misattribution of gnostic concepts to kabbalah is quite a minefield, partially due to prof gershon scholem's work - he's an important scholar, but not entirely correct in many ways.

    umph... that's not really how we see it at all.

    that would make sense, if you considered that it was the tree that was collapsing, but it was the prior configurations of "yosher" and "igulim" via the universes of points and so on. a traditional kabbalist considers that it is one's job to collect and repair the sparks that fell into the lower worlds through the various tiqqunim and unifications. however, i could see that lhp might have an important function in terms of change management as freeing up the sparks in the first place, allowing them to be retrieved; however, please note that similar doctrines were held by the shabbateans and frankists, so they're hardly "kosher".

    well, quite! also, what you said in post #118.

    and still is, if you are familiar with traditional jewish prayer practices, which embrace all of these, including both visualisation, vocalisation and "yoga-esque" physical elements; however, not everyone is a) familiar with them or b) has expertise in them.

    hur, hur, hur. sorry, but you don't seem terribly enlightened to me. scoffety scoff scoff.

    and that is a sentiment with which jews can heartily concur.

    hey, you there! there's a feckin' big hole in yer boat. why've yis abandoned this piece of rubbish where people can trip over it? clear up after yerself, why can't yis?

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  13. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    I should stress this is Hermetic "Q"abalah which is syncretic, but does include a lot of Judaic Kabbalah.

    Thanks for the link also!
     
  14. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,749
    Likes Received:
    2
    yes, i thought as much. a lot of jewish kabbalists scoff at non-jewish kabbalah for this reason; it is, from our point of view, nonsensical to talk about egyptian god-forms or enochian chess being anything to do with kabbalah. my rule of thumb - it is the first letter that generally tells you where someone's coming from, qabalah being occultist/hermetic/wmt, kabbalah being jewish and cabala being christian - although, strictly speaking, q is correct from my point of view, as the letter qof is a guttural, not a palatal (i think that's right) although only if you're sephardi and distinguish your qof from your kaf. most don't even bother to distinguish alef from 'ayeen or het from khaf, let alone tet from tav. don't get me started.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  15. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    That's ok, we Occultists believe Judaism is just another version of Egyptian monotheism (Akhenaton's Atum religion) and Mesopotamian mysticism.
     
  16. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,590
    Likes Received:
    62
    Um, are you aware that I'm on a haphazard path? I can't really call myself a Buddhist, but Buddhism has many excellent tools as well language/concepts that help to communicate ideas to others, and help me understand concepts from paths further west. It just happens to be wear I am on this haphazard path at the moment..

    Pity. Are you sure you have crossed to the other shore, where "satori" is permanent?
    If you have indeed crossed to the other shore and satori is now permanent, one would think that you would have no difficulty demonstrating the qualities of permanent satori in an outward manner. Yet you yourself admit:
    I happen to agree with Etu Malku when he {forgive me if I am mistaken about the "he" part} wrote about making a change within yourself and then having it manifest in this objective world in this respect--the manifestation of this type of change is what I call "fruits of the spirit, the four immeasurables, having the law written in your heart," and similar concepts from other traditions.
     
  17. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,749
    Likes Received:
    2
    touché!

    or, if you prefer, well, that's what freud thought and he was wrong as well. :p

    but what is this "mesopotamian mysticism" beast to which you refer? obviously there are derivative practices, but it's what we did with them that made us different.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  18. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    The practices followed by the Sumerian and Akkadian (Assyrian/Babylonian) peoples from the fourth millennium BC to approximately the 3rd century AD.

    Many of the myths shared by Abrahamic faiths can be found in the Mesopotamian religions such as the Creation Myth, the Garden of Eden, The Great Flood, Tower of Babel and mythical Biblical characters such as Nimrod and Lilith (the Assyrian Lilitu) as discussed earlier, as well as the story of Moses' origins shares a striking similarity with that of Sargon of Akkad.
     
  19. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,749
    Likes Received:
    2
    oh, i see, that. although it is is interesting for context, learning about the religious environment that shaped our origins and the influences that the patriarchs and biblical figures would have been subject to ("what do you mean, sacrificing a ram instead of a child? doesn't sound very *religious* to me") it is important not to lose sight of the fact that there's a big difference between them and us - we're still here 3,000 years later and they're not and, of course, we would suggest that this is more than mere coincidence, considering that all the people you mentioned were major world powers at one time or another and we were/are not.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  20. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    Apparently the Christians didn't/don't see you to be that much of a threat . . . like all the others. :D
     

Share This Page