Re: Maoheads

[Dream]

Or if it isn't that, then what is it?

 

[Vajradhara]

Let me think about that. Probably the biggest disagreement is on Taiwan. I don't understand Chinese opinion about Taiwan. What is so offensive about it?

they are the ones that got away from the Communists and, go figure, the Communists aren't so keen on that kinda thing going on in the midst of their revolution and all.

other than that...follow the $$$

metta,

~v

 

[Dream]

they are the ones that got away from the Communists and, go figure, the Communists aren't so keen on that kinda thing going on in the midst of their revolution and all.

other than that...follow the $$$

metta,

~v

Sounds like that may be what it is.

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

Look, I don't mean to sound arrogant or anything, but I can't help it if I notice that there are thousands of Maoheads who flock to MY culture, enroll in MY school and take MY classes so that they can emulate me and copy me. Its flattering and all, but I don't get the part about America "owing" them anything.

To illustrate a contrast: I have no interest in modern Chinese culture...

... w-w-whatsoever.

I'm simply not impressed.

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

Its a good question, and the religious reasons are that this will benefit posterity, the next generation or two of children -- maybe many more. The secular, more immediate reason, is that complex economic ties between the two huge nations is a discouragement to war. The USA's immediate motivation is to promote peace in the immediate or near future as well as economic stability in the world (foremost for its own benefit). The immediacy places it in the secular realm. "Lets avoid world war at all costs," followed by the religious "won't it be great to have warm relations between us and the Chinese? Imagine the shear potential 50 years from now!"

Ah, now I get it. Americans owe them, not because we actually feel any sense of indebtedness,

not because we actually want to partake in their culture,

but because there's a gun being put to our heads by communists on one side..

Eclectic - you do not seem very familiar with the priciples of macroeconomics. If we did not pay them the debt that they are owed, the U.S. would go the way of Argentina's hyperinflation/default, or what you are starting to see with the European debt crisis (which will get worse as Greece gets closer to what is a probable default). No one would lend to us, and therefore our interest rates would skyrocket and could possibly set forth a wave of hyperinflation as the dollar would weaken tremendously.

... and another gun being put to our heads by international bankers on the other side.

Where has this been seen before?

Everything has been stolen from me and I frankly have nothing left to lose, so.. there you have it.

 

[radarmark]

No, the communists have no guns, nor do the "international bankers"--well they have them but that is not the threat.

We (under Nixon) let the dollar float by abrogating the Bretton Woods agreement. Why? So that the "Great American Consumer" could send thousands of his or her hard earned dollars to China in return for cheap goods. We put a penny in the fusebox that was "balance of trade".

And I mean we, the average U.S. shopper. WE demanded more for less. Meanwhile (after balance of trade went out the window) we discovered we wanted more and more of what the Orient produced and what Europe had (products and social security). But we never wanted to pay the real price.... the price we would have paid if Bretton Woods or the old 25% down for a house had remained (geez, "if vets get houses for nothing down, why can't I?"). The S&L crisis and the early (say 2000 and 2001) rumblings about the housing crisis came across our bows and we missed them (just liked we missed the warnings about UBL and 9/11).

Fast forward thirty years. All of a sudden we cut taxes (the wealth will "tickle down"... but it never did and never has) and start one very expensive war (we have to stand up to those others! we cried). And to keep functioning we turned the biggest surplus in history (2000, the last year of Clinton's Presidency) into the biggest deficit in history (now). We borrowed the money.

That it, no guns, no communists or international bankers to blame. Just us, the U.S. taxpayer and voter. We could have changed it. We could have listened to Goldwater in 68 or Perot in 1992. But between LBJ turning Social Security over to the Treasury rather than keeping it in government bonds (which arguably would have kept the demise of BW or the current debt crisi from happening) to pay for the last war we didn't pay for, Nixon laying down BW so we did not have to pay for balance of trade issues, the Bush tax cuts and Iraq, we got precisely what we asked for. We owe the world. No way out of it now.

Perhaps by defaulting... but like I said, multiply all the bad thing that happened to your saving and investments and jobs by at least a factor of 10, If you want to take that chance, vote Perry-Bachman.

Off my soapbox now. Pax et amore omnia vincunt.

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

What's with this "we" crap?

Are you trying to tell me that international bankers and communists didn't engineer what you just described? I sure as hell didn't have anything to do with that crap.

I have access to human advances because MY PEOPLE innovated, invented and designed those very things and left them behind for me.

When I start to think about modern Chinese culture, I can barely stay awake out of boredom.

When I think about how creative or innovative the typical international banker is, I can barely stay awake out of boredom.

~*~

Also: Amore Omina Vincut is a Latin phrase, a phrase from MY Indoeuropean culture, and only reinforces what I am talking about.

 

[Snoopy]

This 'we' crap I think is we America owe money to another country.

Like if another country owed money to America I think America might call the debt in.

It doesn't seem like rocket science, unless perhaps one gets a bit clouded by xenophobia.

 

[radarmark]

Just a bit testy, eh? Okay. Let me make it simple:

1) we (the U.S. of A.) had a war we never paid for (no war bonds or increased sales taxes in Southeast Asia. LBJ financed this war (which the vast majority supported when it started with the "Gulf of Tonkin" lie) by moving social security to a unified budget. Taking all the social security money that had been invested into gov't securities and making them part of one big pool of money (paying for the war and his Medicare program, basically). Our Congress approved this.

2) Nixon, facing an unsurmountable foreign trade deficit took us off the Bretton Woods agreement (again the Congress approved). The main thing this did was allow citizen to buy cheap foreign goods without having to pay the macro-economic results (a steady decline in the dollar--much worse than the 50 or 70% decrease we have seen since his heyday). Again, this was something almost every citizen was for (passed overwhelmingly in Congress) because it fostered consumerism ("keeping up with the Joneses"). We made do by borrowing (again, about $5000 per each person in the country) from the Japanese--we kept money coming in by selling US gov't treasuries (which used to be held by the Social Security Fund or US citizens for the most part) to the Japanese (via their banks). Why did they buy? Their economy was stagnating and they were getting less than 1% interest in their banks, so they bought our bonds. A lot went to Japanese Industry who, besides making money from the bonds (and they still do, they own as much as China of our debt) also boistered up our economy, giving them a market for the surge in Japanese imports.

3) Clinton kinda-sorta got hings turned around (fiscally he was very moderate, which is why it worked) and led us to the first balanced budgets since the 50s or 60s, and left we (the citizens) with a pretty healthy annual surplus of income coming into the Treasury. We the citizens liked it (again, voted for Congresses that overwhelmingly supported the measures). It turned around the huge deficit left from Bush I and the S&L debaucle.

4) Bush II took those surpluses and doled them out (primarily to the wealthy if you count by either amount returned to individual or percentage of income returned). That meant the surplus disappeared but we (especially the rich) had money in our pockets again! We supported this. Then 9/11 happened and the economy nosedived. Not only did it nose-dive, but we were caught in a War (Afghanistan) which we kinda had to fight. We liked that. We drank the kool aid (cooked intel--or at least most of the USA did, there were some of us that were flabbergasted that our country proposed to fight a pre-emptive war and would use "first-strike" if need be. See neither of these two doctrines existed until Bush IIs pretty controversial "National Defense Strategy" that had been prepared by Cheney and the chickeh-hawks during the CLinton years. Those being pushed through, we started another War (Iraq). And guess what? We did not pay for either war... instead we (the US Congress and the President) financed everything by again, selling tremendous amounts of bonds. This time the Chinese stepped up to buy them. Well, their gov't did. Their gov't, like the Japanese, makes a pretty good profit form then (their internal interest rates are very low) and they floated the false economy of the Bush II years.... meaning they could sell lots of products here. Win-win for the Chinese economically. Again, we the US population wanted this... we did not want to pay for the war or (heavens forbid) give back those juicy taxbreakes. So we voted in a Republican dominated Senate and House and WhiteHouse and told them "go do this thing" we like it. We are kicking some a** in Iraq, still spending like there is no tomorrow, and paying the lowest (per capita) actual tax rates since World War II.

5) Add to this the sheer stupidity of the housing debaukle (again, foireseeable, but we wanted all those blue collar jobs (now that we had sent the manufacturing jobs overseas) for the trades, all those huge profits by the realtors and mortgage firms and banks. And we (again, the people voted in the Congress that did this) had the Glass-Steagull Act revoked (maore ways to make easy money). And that my friend, gives h you the 2008 failure of the economy.

You or your parents either chose LBJ, Nixon, Bush I, and Bush II or agreed with the notion that "from many one". And along they way you for them either directly or indirectly profited from 1) not having to pay for Southeast Asia or Iraq or Afghanistan; 2) the vast importing of hugely inexpensive goods made in Japan or China (fueling the "me" or "yuppie" generation); 3) making homeownership in the USA so very very high (at least prior to 2009 or so, but we still pretty much lead the world) without making the sacrifices our parents and grandparents made to buy a ome; and 4) allow us to have the lowest actual tax rate in the developed world (about where we were in the early 50s).

That my friend is what you and yours and I and mine accepted during the last 40 years. Fine, we dug a big hole. We owe a s***load of money to banks in China and Japan. That money was fairly traded for by exchanging US dollars the Japanese and Chinese had for US gov't bonds that we freely sold them.

By the way, who cares if no one likes their country (who wants to live in a communist country anyway) or that they come here (still have some of the best colleges and opportunities). That has nothing to do with the issue. We traded long-term bonds for short-term money so we could keep our economy going.

Now, if we renig on these bonds (declaire insolvency), something nearly every government and country has done in the past, we would not owe that $5,000 or so dollars to the Chinese and that other $5,000 or so to the Japanese. That is true.

But at what cost? If we declare insolvency we could go the way Russia did (50% of economy gone, income down 50%) or the way Greece is going (violence, a true depression not this diddling little recession, even if it double dips). Imagine 50% unemployment (even higher in black and hispanic and single female households). Whatever your business is imagine paying ten or fifty times as much in interest, with 50% less cash coming in.

I do not like what happened, I never voted for any of those I named. I thied to make everyone I knew see the light. But I accept the cultural and national responsibility for that $10,000 I owe and will vigorously and ceaselessly speak out against the possibility of not paying our debt.

It is a matter of doing what is right and what is best for our country.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt

 

[Snoopy]

Someone needs to wake up and smell the green tea.

 

[Saltmeister]

And I mean we, the average U.S. shopper. WE demanded more for less. Meanwhile (after balance of trade went out the window) we discovered we wanted more and more of what the Orient produced and what Europe had (products and social security). But we never wanted to pay the real price.... the price we would have paid if Bretton Woods or the old 25% down for a house had remained (geez, "if vets get houses for nothing down, why can't I?"). The S&L crisis and the early (say 2000 and 2001) rumblings about the housing crisis came across our bows and we missed them (just liked we missed the warnings about UBL and 9/11).

Fast forward thirty years. All of a sudden we cut taxes (the wealth will "tickle down"... but it never did and never has) and start one very expensive war (we have to stand up to those others! we cried). And to keep functioning we turned the biggest surplus in history (2000, the last year of Clinton's Presidency) into the biggest deficit in history (now). We borrowed the money.

It makes me wonder. What if the Illuminati conspiracy was real? What if it isn't mental masturbation to believe in the conspiracy? Someone might have been trying to sabotage the country -- deliberately. What if all this wasn't American incompetence and ineptitude, but something done on purpose?

You may have seen me making anti-American comments, talking about America's decline, that the USA is going down the toilet. Americans are idiots, Americans are stupid, etc., etc., etc. ........ But maybe all this was engineered. It's part of a plan to create fear among the American people -- terrorists, Patriot Act, War on Terror, Islamophobia, SARS and swine flu, debt, recession, depression and excessive socialism. The purpose of this fear is to make way for a totalitarian government in the USA.

It's not impossible. It seems that TPTB will do whatever they like. Don't assume that it will never happen. It's a matter of social engineering. One day, TPTB will convince the average American that totalitarian government was necessary. It probably won't happen tomorrow, but just wait long enough, say ten years, and those Illuminati conspirators would have had enough time to create the conditions that will make people believe it was actually the right thing to do!!!!!

The present generation is always in the business of disparaging the previous generation for its flaws and shortcomings. It is not inconceivable, however, for things to go "backwards." For example, what characterised modernism was an excessive optimism that the West was superior to other cultures and that their technology would make everything right. Then postmodernism came along and people decided that the West wasn't as great as it was cracked up to be. The humility of postmodernism replaced the arrogance of modernism. Western culture was not superior to other cultures. It was relative.

Likewise, people will decide that secular democracy is too idealistic. Secular democracy is a noble ideal, but it has its limits. Because it (supposedly -- more correctly it was free-market capitalism that failed) caused the global financial crisis, people will decide that secular democracy is flawed and that it was a mistake to promote it. For example, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are an indication that secular democracy is no silver bullet.

Half a dozen social and economic problems will convince the American people that secular democracy is no longer viable and that it will be more prudent to give the government more powers and more control. America will experience something similar to the Reichstag fire. The attack on the World Trade centre was a bit like a Reichstag fire. Something like that may happen again.

If there really is an Illuminati conspiracy, it doesn't matter what Party or Administration is in power, whether it is Democrat or Republican, Bush or Obama. These guys work behind the scenes and their plan has been in motion for decades, uninterrupted. They have always been around. They have had a long time to sabotage your country and also a lot of patience. They know what they want and they have been planning this for a long time.

Things happen so slowly that you don't notice the tiny but important developments and by the time you realise what they've been trying to do, it will be too late.

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

Radar,

I pretty much understand everything you're saying, but I do not agree with the notions that these things were done for my benefit (by intention or by consequence) or that I consented to them in any way. And I never tried to say that the lobbied financial debt was invalid-- simply that it is not mine personally. But that's OK, I'll pay it anyway- as long as there's a gun to my head.

I was talking about "debt" in a more (to be frank) real sense-- for example, I am "indebted" to Goethe for reminding me through his literature that the pursuit of artistic expression alone is a perpetually available tool and ever deep. I am "indebted" to Meister Eckhart for demonstrating his conviction about consecutive loyalty to both God and the Church.

If the Maoheads want to partake in my culture so bad, they better make that Kung Pao Chicken extra tasty, because so far, I'm not impressed in any other way.

Saltmeister,

First of all, there doesn't have to be an Illuminati and you don't need to believe in a conspiracy; just base this on the exoteric information that is out there.

Then postmodernism came along and people decided that the West wasn't as great as it was cracked up to be.

As a matter of fact, its the other way around; certain people discovered this after they decided this, and hence you have the emergence of things like Cultural Marxism, Psychoanalysis and Planned Parenthood, and people like Edward Bernays.

 

[radarmark]

Hey, thanks for the explanation. It's just that I am a big classical liberal, and the notion of the people accepting the budens of gov't mean a lot (to me).

I used to tell my co-workers in the B-2 program office (way back in to 90s) when the right was predicting some giant race war, "I and most of the survivors of Southeast Asian Special Operations will be out there with guns on their side and you, who have not been in combat, will soon be history". That was before McVeigh and OKC, when I decided such conspiracy theory weaving was self-defeating. If there is an Illuminanti Plot to manipulate the USA and if that plot ends up like Mindscan (or any other of the dozens of uber-Christian Science Fiction goodies available) I'll be on the other side for real.

The only real winners from all that has happened post Keenedy have been (1) the wealthy and (2) the Christians (evangelicals, fundamentalists... those who withdrew from politics after the Scopes triail until the Falwell era). Now that I do a lot of economic analysis, I have net enough one-percenters (not the way I was one, but in the top 1% of income makers--not earners since most of them do not work for their income) to knoiw that they probably have no Illuminanti-type plot. For the most part they are just social and financial Darwinists who have gone over the edge ("I will take my money and move to the Bahamas or Dubai" attitudes). And I really cannot believe that the Christian Right (as I defined above) has the collective intelligence to do something like that (but I may be underestimating the enemy). So I do not buy the conspiracy theory.

It is a matter of social breakdown. When I was a kid if you cheated on a test (which was rare), you never bragged about it. And most of us (like Adrew Mellon, Warren Buffett and I) just payed our taxes without cheating (different than using the loopholes). Somewhere my boomer generation changed all that. It just happened hippies to yuppies (and usually the same people, I've known the Dead for years).

But we have had this kind of incivility before (behavior of J Stram Thermond's Great Grandfather beating Sweard on the Senate floor). We have had this kind of stupidity before (see Know Nothing Party or Henry Ford's Papers or the Wall Street Plot). But the arrogance of a generation turning their back on knowledge and reason and science (I remember my Sister telling my nieces and nephews they did not need to learn how to add or subtract because computers would all do it) kinda gets me where I live (that is the little Jewish boy in me, maybe).

So I choose to do what I can and ignore what I cannot. Realize I am not unreasonable, like Hillary and Bill I was a Young Republican (in my case Young American for Freedom) working for Goldwater. I still like "keep government out of my =wallet and my bedroom". Anyone to the right of that position (90 or 95% of the GOP as I see it now) is over-the edge into the area where the other "n-word" applies. PS, to be fair anyone to the left of Sanders or Ted Kennedy (in his prime) enter the "S-word" area. Yep, Nazis and Socialists (IMHO) and I try to ignore them.

 

[Dream]

Chinese babies are really cute, and they have such cute voices. The other day I was walking on a terrace and I could hear them below with their guardian. Another thing about China is that they have Pandas and Kung Fu. They also play that kool music, and they have Tai Chi. Also they like art and music of all kinds from around the world. Their art is interesting, and their culture is very developed in that they have a whole lot of symbols and festivals. Another thing is they have a very nerdy culture in their cities, so it will be interesting to see what that turns into after this brood hits their 40's.

Anyway the Chinese communist (now Communist/Openly Oligarchic) movement is really young, like less than 100 years old. We barely even think about things that happened 100 years ago in the USA. 200 years ago we were fighting the Canadians and annexing Mexico! Personally I think Mao is long dead already, and the people are moving on from him. He's like our Andrew Jackson.

 

[radarmark]

So are Chinese puppies (Chows).

 

[Dream]

Have you ever seen a Miniature Pincher? If I were going to get a dog, I'd get three of those. I'm off topic though, and really dogs are a lot of trouble for a city dweller.

 

[radarmark]

There is a reason why G!d created shark hooks, try a Manchester or a Basenji, they area little less terrier-like.

 

[Dream]

There is a reason why G!d created shark hooks, try a Manchester or a Basenji, they area little less terrier-like.

Ok, lets talk about G!d, then. I was considering using the little '!' like BB does, to be polite, but then I thought "I don't really know what its for, do i?" Plus nobody else uses it, so then if somebody asks me why I'm using it all I can say is "BB does it." Why are you using it?

Now if I'm talking to a Maoist, should I use the little '!'?

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

Thanks for the post Radar. I would just like you to consider that the Nazis were actually extreme left-wingers.