The Two Truths

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by seattlegal, Sep 27, 2011.

  1. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    The flesh? Mārā appears as a spirit, in the Sutras. As does Satan, in the Gospels.
     
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  2. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    Yes, Mara appears as "a spirit" as does Satan. I speak in my writing of Spirit only and nowhere of spirits as you think of them. Here I will share the Precis of my book/blog in its entirety, since it speaks to your question (I think):

    Of a kind with all things living,
    Man is of both
    The flesh that sustains him and
    The spirit that animates him.

    Setting man apart and
    Making him fully human, is
    His awareness that
    This is the case – that
    He is both flesh and spirit
    By birthright.

    Deep in their hearts,
    All men hear my whisperings, and
    As clearly and as loudly
    As one hears my voice,
    To that extent is he
    Ruled by spirit and
    To that extent does
    His desire for me
    Determine the path of his life.

    Alive to the flesh but
    Dead to the spirit,
    They that deny me
    Are no less my children.

    Estranged through the
    Conditions and experiences –
    The dispositions – of their lives,
    Their spirits remain undefiled,
    Returning, as do all,
    To me in the end.

    Hearing me from a distance,
    My devotee comes to me by addition;
    Believing me outside himself,
    My devotee gives me a name, and
    In naming me, pushes me away.

    In the suffering of his isolation,
    My devotee offers me his prayers and
    Living a life pleasing to me
    Secures his place in my eternity.

    Hearing me not from a distance but
    From within his own heart,
    The renunciant is aware that
    He IS not –
    That Self is of the flesh and
    Has no true being.

    All that his mind thinks and
    All that his hands create are
    For this moment only and, like Self,
    Have no true being.

    Aware that I can be seen in this life
    Only by subtraction,
    The renunciant uproots Self and
    Shuns all things temporal.

    Detached from the world of the flesh and
    The burdens of both heart and mind,
    The renunciant grows
    In love and in Charity, in
    Undifferentiated and eternal
    Spirit only.

    Hearing but denying my voice,
    Hearing my voice but softly, or
    Hearing my voice as a deafening roar,
    All men walk the paths
    Determined by their dispositions.

    All men – non-believers, devotees, renunciants –
    All men alike return, in the end,
    To whence they came,
    Their bodies returning to earth, and
    Their spirits returning to me,
    Untouched,
    Unchanged,
    Unblemished.

    Perfect.


    Devotees, those who hear Spirit from without, distinguish Spirit as an "other." Learning from his elders, the devotee identifies Spirit as good and identifies other spirits as evil.

    Devotees are taught that Mara and Satan are "evil spirits" battling for the individual's soul.

    Renunciants, those who hear Spirit from within, realize that the Self has no true being and, by renouncing Self, seek union with Spirit.

    Renunciants equate "evil" with "obstructions to union with Spirit;" these are not willful entities but, rather, part of man's birthright. The struggle is to tip the balance from the flesh (in our infancy) to Spirit (in our maturity).
     
  3. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    I get it, but let me stick to it a little bit longer. If Māro is not Spirit but a spirit, he's still not physical, not "flesh", right?

    So are there three levels or categories in your cosmology - flesh, spirits, and Spirit (the latter in some non-dual sense)?
     
  4. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    In my writing, "flesh" is used in the Biblical sense - worldly; not of Spirit. "Spirits" arise only with a duality that, seeing Spirit as "other," are part of the devotee's (and not the unbeliever's or renunciant's) world. Maro and Satan don't appear anywhere in my writing, since devotees of all faiths have enough of that in their respective traditions.
     
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  5. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    So spirits are worldly in your usage. I'll keep that in mind when reading your verses.

    Next question, how isn't the difference between worldly phenomena and Spirit just the same old duality we all know? In other words, are there Spirit-free zones?
     
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  6. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    You won't find any mention of spirits in my writing. As for the "the same old duality we all know," I'm not sure just what you are referring to. Also, if you would read my book/blog in its entirety (it really isn't that long), my meaning might be clearer than looking at things piecemeal without the benefit of context.
     
  7. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    I'm referring to this:

    In what way is that not a duality? I'm not trying to trick you, this paradox is at the heart of the thing. Expressed differently, is there a Spirit-free zone (capital S in your terms)?
     
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  8. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    My context is this thread, which is about the Two Truths, abd Maro also popped up. And you brought up Spirit with an S, and non-dual poetry.

    If I want to consume your blog, I'll do that, but right now I'm enjoying our discussion.
     
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  9. Geoffrey

    Geoffrey Established Member

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    The two truths are one absolute and the other relative? The former is of Spirit and the latter of the flesh. I believe Mara "popped up" because you brought it into the conversation. Not sure why.

    Please read my book/blog. If you find something in it that "resonates" with you, cool; take notes, reflect, read further from other sources which might also "resonate" on the same point, ask others who have read it (as you would any other resource) for their thoughts, repeat the process. If there is nothing there that "rings your bell," then that's cool, too. You might put it aside to read again in a few years ... or just delete it and move on.
     
  10. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    You might want to read back a bit in a thread you're responding to. You know, for context. Also, since you encourage readers to read your blog & reflect on its content, it is not too far fetched to assume that you yourself practice what you preach, and enjoy reading.

    Thanks for the invitation to learn from your blog, but so far, I'm good with what you write here. I'm not looking for a teacher.

    You might enjoy the thread "Expressing spiritual or mystical things more deeply" in the "Alternative" section of the forums. Hope to see you there!
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2022
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